Seeing that an 8 player team defeated Hami - What do the Devs think of the power creep ?

[fitzsimmons]

41 minutes ago, Hew said:

Slot fenders, corrs, trollers, or (gasp) mms. Thats all the slotting you need. Still have problems on your team? Slot more of the aforementioned.

 

Luminara's tl;dr post is accurate. Support ATs in this game are game breaking. Period. Forget IO slotting at all. You have a nut you need to crack? Slot more support.

 

 

Enhancements have no effect though.  Slotting doesn't matter.  It's pretty awful... but a challenge in it's own right.

 

That aside, my group had done some SO/HO only runs (ITF, STF, LRSF) where we took a few toons and did second builds.  No incarnates were allowed.

 

It was fun.  I got to dust off the therm, someone else brought a bubbler.

 

It was easy but we had to put some thought into the toons we brought and work a bit more as a team.

 

Brings back memories for me of the LRSF where we had to venge dive and stack for the last fight and bring nukes and shivans.

 

Regards,
Dave

 

Edit: Just to clarify in case something is lost in communication, Task/Strike forces have an option you can click where enhancements have no effect.  It's akin to running unslotted.

Edited October 14, 2020 by fitzsimmons

[Luminara]

43 minutes ago, fitzsimmons said:

Enhancements have no effect though.  Slotting doesn't matter.

 

He meant do them with a support character.  "Slot" the character/archetype, not the powers.  Being able to floor an enemy's hit chances, or dumping 20% or more -Res and/or -Def on them, makes up for a lot of what's lost when enhancements are disabled.  Doing it with multiple support characters means no-one needs enhancements.

[fitzsimmons]

1 minute ago, Luminara said:

 

He meant do them with a support character.  "Slot" the character/archetype, not the powers.  Being able to floor an enemy's hit chances, or dumping 20% or more -Res and/or -Def on them, makes up for a lot of what's lost when enhancements are disabled.  Doing it with multiple support characters means no-one needs enhancements.

Would need an emp and/or a kin as well to deal with end issues.  Would be fun-ish.  In my original post I mentioned the solo ITF with enhancements disabled.  Gold star is still up for grabs on that.

 

I tried to 2 man an ITF with a friend with setting.  It was maddening and frustrating.  Didn't last past the first mission and we didn't know what we were in for.

 

Running with a carefully crafted team would certainly ease or eliminate the pain.

 

Regards,
Dave

[Luminara]

Just now, fitzsimmons said:

Would need an emp and/or a kin as well to deal with end issues.

 

Accelerate Metabolism, Heat Loss, Energizing Circuit, Lifegiving Spores, Painbringer, Chrono Shift, temp buffs, blues... lots of options.

[Ukase]

3 hours ago, parabola said:

I don't necessarily want to nerf anything (hence the SO's suggestion rather than blanket IO nerfs) but I do want to see improvements to the teaming experience at the high end, particularly for support AT's.

Given this statement about wanting improvements to the teaming experience at the high end, can we try to nail down what it is people are looking for? 

I could be wrong, but on one end of the spectrum, I see people upset because their characters aren't "super". I also see others upset because they feel useless in various missions/task forces/iTrials, because they don't feel they're contributing in a meaningful fashion. 

I do understand this, having been on a water/kin and finding that the big group of mobs, an excellent opportunity for Fulcrum Shift, but I didn't get there first, and ka-blooey, they're all dead except a boss. I can use FS on this one guy, or wait until the next group, only for it to happen again with someone using pyronic judgement. 

So, I ask myself, what's the solution? I could move ahead, and wait while stealthed. Or, I could just forget about FS for the time being since it's obvious we don't need it. Is it ideal? Maybe not. But so what? I don't measure my worth on fulcrum shift.  I just play my character as well as I can, in that moment. 

Some folks would prefer to have the action in game slow down, where one player would gather aggro/mobs, while another would dispatch damage, while another buffs/debuffs/heals. They don't like it when things are over so quickly, the rewards  flash by in their system chat and they can't read the dialog. I think this is a playstyle issue more than a power creep issue. That's not to say we don't have power creep, we do. But I digress- to the point:

What are you looking for in your teaming experience ?

[golstat2003]

3 hours ago, Hops said:

Coh is ez mode. I play for nostalgic. It’s not ran by a company. Just enjoy what you have and that we have it back.

Yeah I think folks (amidst their passion for the game) keep forgetting that we don't have a paid professional dev team. And that these COH Servers (including HC) are not quite, errrr,  . . . commercial. I'll say that and leave it at that. 😛 

Edited October 14, 2020 by golstat2003

[fitzsimmons]

33 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

Accelerate Metabolism, Heat Loss, Energizing Circuit, Lifegiving Spores, Painbringer, Chrono Shift, temp buffs, blues... lots of options.

Yep, agree.  Would promote gathering, callouts and a different playstyle.  Could be fun.

[Hew]

10 minutes ago, fitzsimmons said:

Yep, agree.  Would promote gathering, callouts and a different playstyle.  Could be fun.

Something missing here. Support ATs require minimal enhancement slotting to make a difference, and a huge chunk of support powersets work great well below 20.

 

You can run a team with sub 22 support and still steamroll. Support is _that powerful_ in this game. Yet, some (many?) people don't like to do it because Hey! No Big Orange Numbers!

 

We even have a whole thread about how Corrs don't do enough Big Orange Numbers. That is, well, kinda sad. 😕

 

 

[DougGraves]

40 minutes ago, Ukase said:

I could be wrong, but on one end of the spectrum, I see people upset because their characters aren't "super".

 

This is simply something people claim that is not true.  You can make any AT with any powerset and no enhancements, get them to level 50 - the go back and wipe out hordes of villains in Perez Park with no risk to yourself.  You can one shot them.  You can one shot hordes.  You can be as "super" as you like.

 

But people don't do that.  Because they don't want to be "super".

 

People want to be rewarded for doing things quickly with no challenge.  They pretend that is being "super".  But if you take the reward away they won't do it.  It is not the being "super" that matters.

[Ukase]

11 minutes ago, DougGraves said:

 

This is simply something people claim that is not true.  You can make any AT with any powerset and no enhancements, get them to level 50 - the go back and wipe out hordes of villains in Perez Park with no risk to yourself.  You can one shot them.  You can one shot hordes.  You can be as "super" as you like.

 

But people don't do that.  Because they don't want to be "super".

 

People want to be rewarded for doing things quickly with no challenge.  They pretend that is being "super".  But if you take the reward away they won't do it.  It is not the being "super" that matters.

False logic. Nothing super about blasting away at gray mobs. When people say they want to be super, they want to be able to defeat mobs easily - mobs that are their own level or even higher. I don't suggest this makes sense for a super hero game like CoH. But there is a point to their argument when you're running out of endurance in the middle of a fight, or being perma-mezzed. The former can be handled with some enhancements. The latter, for some ATs, not so much. 

[Frostbiter]

I've never found a lack of toolbox mezz protection to be that much of a hurdle personally. Breakfrees are cheap, plentiful, and can be used proactively or retroactively. Combined with a decent working knowledge of the antagonist groups in the game mez just shouldn't be an issue past the learning phase.

[Luminara]

41 minutes ago, Hew said:

You can run a team with sub 22 support and still steamroll. Support is _that powerful_ in this game. Yet, some (many?) people don't like to do it because Hey! No Big Orange Numbers!

 

Immediate gratification is a natural human desire.

 

Math isn't, for most people.

[Parabola]

1 hour ago, Ukase said:

What are you looking for in your teaming experience ?

A good question. The simplest answer is that I would like the teaming experience from the early to mid level game to extend into the late game. Where a team is greater than the sum of its parts no matter what those parts are. Where no one or two characters can run off and solo everything and everyone else just feels like they are running to keep up. Where everyone feels they are contributing to the success of the team.

 

Things that I am not looking for include: rigid trinity gameplay, rigid team tactics (herding being required etc.), or specific team compositions becoming necessary. I believe there is plenty of room to improve the high level teaming experience without any of these.

[golstat2003]

2 hours ago, Luminara said:

 

It's not really about personal challenge.  It's a result of standard MMORPG design with role specification and content designed to be completed within the boundaries of those role specifications.  If your class role doesn't fit within the design of the content, or the content is easy enough to be completed without your class, you can be excluded.  And in those MMORPGs, that means you don't get the loot, you don't get the new abilities, you don't get to play the content, you don't get to make new friends, etc.  So people expect to have a specific role and purpose within a group, and apply that expectation to this game.  They're afraid that they'll be denied something if they aren't given specificity within the group and the content.

As much as I've been crowing about FFXIVOnline this is VERY TRUE in that MMO. You basically CANNOT proceed solo in that game.

[golstat2003]

1 hour ago, fitzsimmons said:

Yep, agree.  Would promote gathering, callouts and a different playstyle.  Could be fun.

I never . . . ever gathered when running my support ATs back in the day or currently. I just hit it as it's needed and the team is good to go. If you're in range fine if not, you get it next time. And no one complained if my buffs missed them even back in the early days of COH.

 

Different playstyles I guess. 

 

[jubakumbi]

4 hours ago, Luminara said:

 

It's not really about personal challenge.  It's a result of standard MMORPG design with role specification and content designed to be completed within the boundaries of those role specifications.  If your class role doesn't fit within the design of the content, or the content is easy enough to be completed without your class, you can be excluded.  And in those MMORPGs, that means you don't get the loot, you don't get the new abilities, you don't get to play the content, you don't get to make new friends, etc.  So people expect to have a specific role and purpose within a group, and apply that expectation to this game.  They're afraid that they'll be denied something if they aren't given specificity within the group and the content.

You can use the system as it is to create challenges for groups.

Sure, the players involved have to cooperate.

COH is all I am talking about here.

You can play with the level of challenge you prefer if you take the time to do it.

The power to that is in the hands of the players.

Why people want to give that back to the volunteers is simply not logical to me, beyond wanting someone else to do the work and not have think.

[ZacKing]

2 hours ago, DougGraves said:

 

This is simply something people claim that is not true.  You can make any AT with any powerset and no enhancements, get them to level 50 - the go back and wipe out hordes of villains in Perez Park with no risk to yourself.  You can one shot them.  You can one shot hordes.  You can be as "super" as you like.

 

But people don't do that.  Because they don't want to be "super".

 

People want to be rewarded for doing things quickly with no challenge.  They pretend that is being "super".  But if you take the reward away they won't do it.  It is not the being "super" that matters.

People wanting to be rewarded quickly is just human nature man.  There's nothing more pious or virtuous about taking longer and struggling to do something that can be done more efficiently with less effort.

 

[plainguy]

Wow the stuff I stir up.. 

Played COX from opening until close. Same screen name on the old forums via wayback machine. 

I get game mechanics. I leverage it to create a bunch of petless masterminds that can solo 3/8 setting.. Yea I know slower kill rate.. My point is I know enough about the game mechanics to leverage them to create builds as well.

I farm. 

I am aware of using nukes on hami. I am aware that it was done in the past this way. 
You can find guides on Hami raids ( and all versions ) of doing it via again wayback machine. 

 

The Poster of the 8 man Hami  did not mention using nukes. 

The video is not available to review. 

 

End result the impression you get without looking at a video and from his post is basically it was just done with 8 players and no extra gimmicks. 
I didn't recall 8 players just doing without any gimmicks either. Meaning just through normal player builds even when maxed.  

If I knew nukes were used I would be less then impressed knowing someone else had done it already and the data was already there to be copied. 

 

So again the impression I got was it was 8 maxed stat players going in with T4 incarnates and kicking ass.  

 

 

[skoryy]

5 hours ago, Hew said:

Yet, some (many?) people don't like to do it because Hey! No Big Orange Numbers!

But I'm a member of the Stalker Fan Club!  We love Big Orange Numbers!

[Crysis]

14 hours ago, parabola said:

The existance of harder content doesn't invalidate the point that standard content isn't providing enough challenge. And challenging oneself in a solo environment isn't really where power creep is a problem anyway, it doesn't matter how op or not you are solo. What matters is the team game where people are finding that teaming isn't a huge amount of fun when others on the team can solo the same content at max difficulty.

 

I'm personally not of the opinion that harder content alone will solve all the problems anyway. If it were my game I would be seriously looking at the power gap between the lowest and highest performing characters before all else. Currently the game cannot really be balanced because the gap between SO's and purpled out IO's is so wide. Given how unpopular global nerfs to IO's would be it might be worth instead buffing SO's to narrow that gap. Then the game can be made harder across the board without leaving anyone behind.

I think you entirely missed my point.

 

I was solo in Night Ward because the content there (and it’s “normal” mission content by game standards) is just challenging enough that hardly ANY players will team up and run missions there.  Why?  Because it’s slightly more challenging “normal” story based mission content.  Same for DA.

 

So yes, in fact, dead zones of slightly more challenging mission content negates this entire argument.  The overwhelming majority of the player base is not interested in challenge.  They are interested in fun.

[Crysis]

7 hours ago, Ukase said:

 But there is a point to their argument when you're running out of endurance in the middle of a fight, or being perma-mezzed. The former can be handled with some enhancements. The latter, for some ATs, not so much. 

Are we even playing the same game?

 

Perma-mezz hasn’t been an issue in a long time.  Between empowerment stations, P2W, super break free inspirations, Clarion, Sorcery pool etc.....any AT can avoid mezz.  It requires choices, load out planning based on mission and critter type, pool/power selections etc.  And with the relatively common ability to max out positional and/or typed DEF, mezz attacks that don’t land have zero impact.

 

Now if you want more challenge, take your risks with RNGesus and go commando and hope the Carnies don’t brain gangbang you.  Or take any one of the very available mezz countermeasures and deal with it.

 

”Not so much” is basically the same as “I don’t wanna.”  That’s fine, do or don’t, but please don’t make believe it’s an insurmountable challenge.  

[Ukase]

8 minutes ago, Crysis said:

Are we even playing the same game?

 

Perma-mezz hasn’t been an issue in a long time.  Between empowerment stations, P2W, super break free inspirations, Clarion, Sorcery pool etc.....any AT can avoid mezz.  It requires choices, load out planning based on mission and critter type, pool/power selections etc.  And with the relatively common ability to max out positional and/or typed DEF, mezz attacks that don’t land have zero impact.

 

Now if you want more challenge, take your risks with RNGesus and go commando and hope the Carnies don’t brain gangbang you.  Or take any one of the very available mezz countermeasures and deal with it.

 

”Not so much” is basically the same as “I don’t wanna.”  That’s fine, do or don’t, but please don’t make believe it’s an insurmountable challenge.  

Please be aware, I use those things often. It's not an issue for me. But there are a number of players that have no idea SG Empowerment stations even exist. They don't have the resources a lot of us have to use many of these solutions. 

And I think that's part of the disconnect between folks who say the game is too hard and the ones that are looking for more challenge - experience and time played. Some have it, some don't.

[ivanhedgehog]

Repeat offenders did amazing things on live and the devs were fine with it, because they were an edge case. No need to screw over everyone else to deal with a non existant problem

[Crysis]

19 minutes ago, Ukase said:

Please be aware, I use those things often. It's not an issue for me. But there are a number of players that have no idea SG Empowerment stations even exist. They don't have the resources a lot of us have to use many of these solutions. 

And I think that's part of the disconnect between folks who say the game is too hard and the ones that are looking for more challenge - experience and time played. Some have it, some don't.

Ah ok.  I misinterpreted your reply.  
 

Game on.

[Dragotect]

On 10/12/2020 at 5:12 PM, plainguy said:

Just wondering what the Devs think of an 8 player team defeating Hami ? 

Its clear that something is over powered  to give them this ability that is usually requires more players. 

 

It's clear that IO sets and Incarnate can be a bit overpowering

 

No...

 

Having just failed a pug LGTF because we forgot to make sure we had holds for the green mitos before starting I say Kudos to the folks that pulled it off on the real thing.