Alpha question: Agility or Cardiac? (or Vigor?!)

[cohRock]

I have an SR/Axe tank (Poul Bunyan) who runs 8 toggles (3 SR shields, Assault, Tactics, Tough, Weave, and Combat Jumping).   Endurance is a problem. even with an end reduction in my attacks and toggles (except CJ).  My first 50 had similar issues, and he went with Cardiac, essentially adding an end reduc SO to every power that could use it.  So I thought with this tank I'd work supply side, and he is at tier 1 Agility.  This adds an SO to Stamina and Physical Perfection, which already have 3 SO End Modifications in each.  So, at least at tier 1, Agility helps very little.

 

So why don't I just switch him to Cardiac?  I may well do that, but I thought I'd get some feedback first.  I'm sure Cardiac will be instantly noticeable even at Tier 1, since it would be adding a second SO to my powers, instead of a 4th.  But I see at Tier 4 Agility, the end mod buff can be 45%.  Does any of that bypass Enhancement Diversification (ED)?  Is there a bypass below Tier 4?  If not, the main use I see with Agility is allowing you to double slot end mods in Stamina and Physical Perfection, depending on Cardiac to bring them to full power.

 

The other issue is secondary effects.  At higher tiers, Agility buffs Defensive shields, while Cardiac buffs Resistance ones.  In his build, the only Resistance shield Poul has is Tough, but he has a LOT of Defensive ones.  I know that ED will limit the effectiveness of either buff, but I'd rather buff a lot of things a little, rather than one.  Also, SR has scaling resists: as your health decreases, you gain resistance to just about everything.  I doubt the Cardiac Resistance buff will affect that, but I'd like to be sure.  Does it?

 

He is a new 50, and hasn't chosen a Destiny power.  My first 50 chose Ageless to further help with endurance issues, as well as some extra recharge and range.  I was hoping Poul could check out something besides Ageless, but I'm pretty sure if he sticks with Alpha:Agility, he'll need it.  But Destiny:Barrier seems like a great fit for SR, and I'd like to try that.

 

Advice and opinions, anyone?

(days later:  Poul went with Vigor -- see my post near end of this page.)

Edited October 23, 2020 by cohRock
stated that he went with Vigor

[Frostbiter]

Only 8 toggles? Have you made good use of the various IO's that help with Endurance? Performance Shifter + Endurance proc , Panacea +Endurance +HP proc, Numina's Covalescense + Regen +Recovery and Miracle's +Recovery? You should get some pretty hefty End recovery from those.

Edited October 21, 2020 by Frostbiter

[Heraclea]

I'd have to see your build first.  For an end-bound character, job one is having the Panacea (level 7), Miracle (level 17), and Numina's (level 27) IOs frankenslotted in Health, and the Performance Shifter proc in Stamina.  These are relatively affordable, in that with patience you should be able to get them all for under 8 million.  These all have the advantage that they work throughout the game, while incarnate abilities are only available 45+. 

[Luminara]

Tier 1 - 1/6 ignores ED.

Tier 2 - 1/3 ignores ED.

Tier 3 - 1/2 ignores ED.

Tier 4 - 2/3 ignores ED.

 

Core offers the highest individual bonuses, Radial spreads the bonuses out amongst more things and has a lower ceiling.  If you're really struggling and a slotting change won't improve the problem (+5 boosting frankenslotted Def/End IOs can really make a difference), Core would add 30% beyond ED  (45% * .66 = 30%) to whatever you're looking to improve (Endurance Modification or Endurance Reduction).  So Cardiac Core or Agility Core.

 

They can both be created and swapped to find out which is more effective, but you won't see the full strength until T4.

[Luminara]

3 minutes ago, Frostbiter said:

Only 8 toggles? Have you made good use of the various IO's that help with Endurance? Performance Shifter + Endurance proc , Panacea +Endurance +HP proc, Numina's Covalescense + Regen +Recovery and Miracle's +Recovery? You should get some pretty hefty End recovery from those.

 

2 minutes ago, Heraclea said:

I'd have to see your build first.  For an end-bound character, job one is having the Panacea (level 7), Miracle (level 17), and Numina's (level 27) IOs frankenslotted in Health, and the Performance Shifter proc in Stamina.  These are relatively affordable, in that with patience you should be able to get them all for under 8 million.  These all have the advantage that they work throughout the game, while incarnate abilities are only available 45+. 

 

These, and there's also Physical Perfection in the Energy Mastery APP.  +12.5% Recovery.  It's not huge, but with Agility buffing that and Stamina, it might be enough.

[Frostbiter]

Another nice option is taking Physical Perfection from the Energy Mastery Epic pool. Not only is it another Stamina, it also takes an additional Performance Shifter since the proc isn't unique.

Edited October 21, 2020 by Frostbiter

[Black Zot]

Something to consider as far as secondary effects go - SR already has pretty much the highest defense numbers of any set; IIRC it's quite capable of hitting Incarnate softcap numbers without Incarnate powers.  Adding yet more def does very little for that.

 

Also, don't forget the +Max End accolades and set bonuses; all endurance recovery is based on a percentage of your max end, so boosting that value is like adding an extra slot to Stamina that's not affected by ED.

[Twisted Toon]

If I'm not mistaken, The Support Hybrid offers an End discount that is always active whether the Hybrid power is currently being used or not.

I also think it's a rather hefty End discount as well...at least at tier 3.

[Vanden]

If you're only after managing Endurance, grabbing an Agility alpha is one of the worst choices you can make, only slightly above slotting Stamina past the ED limit and doing nothing.

 

Check the link in my signature for more info.

 

Edited October 21, 2020 by Vanden

[CaptainLupis]

2 hours ago, Luminara said:

 

 

These, and there's also Physical Perfection in the Energy Mastery APP.  +12.5% Recovery.  It's not huge, but with Agility buffing that and Stamina, it might be enough.

It's not a lot but at least you can slot another performance shifter +end in it.

 

Edit: and now I see @Frostbiter already pointed this out. I should probably have read the other replies before posting...

Edited October 21, 2020 by CaptainLupis

[Ironblade]

3 hours ago, cohRock said:

I have an SR/Axe tank (Poul Bunyan) who runs 8 toggles (3 SR shields, Assault, Tactics, Tough, Weave, and Combat Jumping).   Endurance is a problem. even with an end reduction in my attacks and toggles (except CJ).

My dark/dark tank had 10 toggles, including Focused Accuracy which is a huge END hog.  My SR/MA scrapper had the same toggles as you.  BOTH of them had Physical Perfection, Conserve Power and IO set bonuses for +recovery.  I went that route since there were NO INCARNATE POWERS at that point.

 

This approach works really well as you level up since I slotted higher level IO's later on and also got some +recharge.  Obviously, I slotted the +recovery uniques and Perf Shifter +END as early as possible.  As the recharge starts showing up and I also get more attacks for a non-stop attack chain, I also have more and more +recovery.  My target was to GRADUALLY run out of endurance so I would have to occasionally use a blue inspiration.  When I got Conserve Power, that fixed everything and it became a see-saw of endurance.  I would attack non-stop and my endurance would slowly decline.  Then I could activate Conserve Power and it would slowly recover.  Rinse.  Repeat.

 

Notes:

1) This was before incarnate powers so I had no other option.  But I would do it the same way today so that I would have complete flexibility in choosing my Alpha power.  If I was doing these characters today, I'd probably go for damage on the scrapper and resistance on the tank.

2) After the +recovery uniques and Perf Shifter, neither really needed much additional recovery.  One had an additional 12% and one had 18%.

3) You don't want just "an end reduction" in the attacks.  You want to use IO sets which make it easy to get good accuracy, full damage, high recharge and something like 40% or more end reduction.  On a tank, you'll want +recovery and +regen in your sets and these are the first bonuses in each set that has them.  Frankenslot the powers for top-notch performance and extra regen/rec at bargain basement prices.  One of the cheapest builds I ever did was on my invuln/EM tank - frankenslotted all the way and it gave him +230% regeneration just from the IO's.

[srmalloy]

There is always taking the slower route of building a Tier 1 Cardiac Alpha and slotting it while you build up Agility alphas to the tier you want, and replacing the Cardiac with the Agility when it does more for you than the Cardiac does. True, you're 'wasting' 12 shards or 60 threads, but you can get the threads back just by joining a Hami raid for the once-per-day reward of four Empyrean merits.

[Vanden]

43 minutes ago, srmalloy said:

There is always taking the slower route of building a Tier 1 Cardiac Alpha and slotting it while you build up Agility alphas to the tier you want, and replacing the Cardiac with the Agility when it does more for you than the Cardiac does.

A SR character, with only Stamina and maybe Physical Perfection? That's never going to happen.

 

(Assuming we're only talking about endurance)

[CaptainLupis]

8 hours ago, srmalloy said:

There is always taking the slower route of building a Tier 1 Cardiac Alpha and slotting it while you build up Agility alphas to the tier you want, and replacing the Cardiac with the Agility when it does more for you than the Cardiac does. True, you're 'wasting' 12 shards or 60 threads, but you can get the threads back just by joining a Hami raid for the once-per-day reward of four Empyrean merits.

That's interesting, I didn't know the Hami raid gave emp merits. I've only done the one since finding Homecoming and wasn't really paying attention to the rewards at that point.

[nihilii]

Cardiac is almost certainly the better choice in your case. Previous posters have highlighted good reasons, just going to repeat several of them:

- cardiac is more efficient than agility for end management, period

- your defense is already softcapped if not incarnate softcapped, so any defense buff from agility likely does nothing for you

- agility also lowers proc rates, as proc rate depends on recharge slotted in powers and alphas count as enhancements. Even if you're not a player who cares for heavy proc slotting, this probably impacts you at least a little because you likely have the Might of the Tanker proc, and maybe the Gauntleted Fist one too

[Uun]

19 hours ago, Vanden said:

A SR character, with only Stamina and maybe Physical Perfection? That's never going to happen.

 

(Assuming we're only talking about endurance)

My SR/Staff tank has 2-slotted Stamina, no Physical Perfection, none of the +end IOs and runs 6 toggles. Form of the Soul provides an endurance discount (which I usually don't need) and I get a 6.25% endurance discount from Reactive Defenses and Unbreakable Guard sets. I also have total endurance of 119 from accolades and set bonuses.

[Vanden]

10 minutes ago, Uun said:

My SR/Staff tank has 2-slotted Stamina, no Physical Perfection, none of the +end IOs and runs 6 toggles. Form of the Soul provides an endurance discount (which I usually don't need) and I get a 6.25% endurance discount from Reactive Defenses and Unbreakable Guard sets. I also have total endurance of 119 from accolades and set bonuses.

What’s that got to do with the advice I was giving cohRock for his SR/Axe Tanker?

[cohRock]

Thank you, everyone, for your feedback.  The only "extra" he has to help endurance right now is the Atlas Medallion, but he will be getting Portal Jockey and the Numina and Miracle procs, as well as various sets to further help with endurance.  That said, I think I will be switching him to Cardiac.

[Uun]

4 hours ago, Vanden said:

What’s that got to do with the advice I was giving cohRock for his SR/Axe Tanker?

I was responding to "A SR character, with only Stamina and maybe Physical Perfection? That's never going to happen."

[Vanden]

2 minutes ago, Uun said:

I was responding to "A SR character, with only Stamina and maybe Physical Perfection? That's never going to happen."

I was still talking about OP's SR/Axe Tanker, and anyway what I said was never going to happen was Agility doing more for your endurance than Cardiac.

[Bill Z Bubba]

Just now, Vanden said:

I was still talking about OP's SR/Axe Tanker, and anyway what I said was never going to happen was Agility doing more for your endurance than Cardiac.

Well I sure as hell got confused. SR's just fine with Stamina and CP/SC and PP. On a brute that means you can slot three Perf Shifter Procs.

[Vanden]

Just now, Bill Z Bubba said:

Well I sure as hell got confused. SR's just fine with Stamina and CP/SC and PP. On a brute that means you can slot three Perf Shifter Procs.

I'm not saying you can't make it work, I'm just saying Agility's end mod enhancement when it can only affect Stamina and Physical Perfection doesn't do anywhere near as much as Cardiac's endurance reduction in every power.

[Bill Z Bubba]

12 minutes ago, Vanden said:

I'm not saying you can't make it work, I'm just saying Agility's end mod enhancement when it can only affect Stamina and Physical Perfection doesn't do anywhere near as much as Cardiac's endurance reduction in every power.

Gotcha. All three of the Bills go with musculature.

 

Edit: Just verified, so does my SR/Mace tank. Granted, unlike the OP, she only runs 6 toggles. SR + Tough/Weave and CJ.

Edited October 23, 2020 by Bill Z Bubba

[cohRock]

Curve ball -- he went with Vigor and is at tier 3, partial core revamp.  This grants 33% to healing, accuracy, and end reduction.  Since he followed the advice of @Frostbiter and slotted the Numina proc in Health and Miracle in Physical Perfection, the Vigor health boost restores the "lost" normal healing enhancements.  (He also slotted the pure healing/absorb enhancement from each set, giving a recovery set bonus from one and a regeneration set bonus from the other.)

 

Actually, Vigor covers so many bases it might become my goto Alpha for most other 50s.  While it doesn't include any recharge, Poul doesn't really need it.  He did not bother with Hasten, and the only really long recharge time he has is on Conserve Power.  And unless he is sapped or something, I think that will have become a very situational power anyway.  As he incorporates various sets, I'm sure that future sets will add to the 20% recharge he gains from Quickness.

[Uun]

15 hours ago, Vanden said:

I was still talking about OP's SR/Axe Tanker, and anyway what I said was never going to happen was Agility doing more for your endurance than Cardiac.

Got it now. I didn't follow that at all the first time.