Focused Feedback: Trick Arrow Revamp

[oedipus_tex]

4 hours ago, Monos King said:

Exactly like ordinary resistance, debuff resistance resists resistable -res. Looks like the tags need to be hit with the unresistable tag, unless this was intentional. If it was intentional, I do think it needs to not be, this isn't quite what I was expecting. 

 

 

Great detective work you've been doing. The fact that debuff resistance resists resistable -res means it works like other forms of -resist so isn't that surprising, but I'm glad you tested it to be sure.

 

I wonder why Lts and Bosses have a -Resist ToHit floor that is so high. If players and minions don't have that floor, I wonder if it would be possible to change it to match them. I guess that's a question best left to the devs. It almost sounds like that value was just put in place as a placeholder, since there were no powers that affected it before recently.

 

I'm personally against marking -Resist Unresistable. Although it would be useful, that would be very powerful versus AVs. With two TA characters working together, you could strip a same level AV from near invulnerability to endurance drain to having almost no protection and then floor their blue bar. You could do the same with -Recharge. Also since Acid Arrow multiplies all debuffs on the enemy, not just ones owned by the caster, it would mean powers that don't normally factor much into AV fights would suddenly be very useful. That isn't all bad--being able to use -Recharge in AV fights might actually make it a good effect. But it's perhaps a it too good.

Edited October 28, 2020 by oedipus_tex

[Monos King]

2 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

You could do the same with -Recharge. Also since Acid Arrow multiplies all debuffs on the enemy, not just ones owned by the caster, it would mean powers that don't normally factor much into AV fights would suddenly be very useful. That isn't all bad--being able to use -Recharge in AV fights might actually make it a good effect.

Yeah, Acid Arrow is definitely in a good place either way. I think it could use  slightly higher values to compensate, but outside of the to hit bumps noted earlier...everything else is really just putting ideas out and about. Great power.

[oedipus_tex]

An option might be to put actual debuffs in Acid Arrow in addition to the Resistance debuffing. Something like this:

• -40% Resistance to Recharge debuffs
• -20% Recharge (unresistable)
• -40% Resistance to ToHit debuffs
• -5% ToHit (unresistable)

 

That would help bridge the gap with Lt/Bosses/AVs a bit without probably breaking too much.

 

Note this is mainly if the ToHit Resist floor is unfixable.

Edited October 28, 2020 by oedipus_tex

[JayboH]

Having a set be slot-starved due to having so many good powers is typically a good thing.

 

Glue becoming a cone is kind of a cool idea and would take care of the issue where mobs run into glue and aren't affected at the moment (as they weren't in the cone when it hit.)

 

Having a power like Acid get -resist back wouldn't be a problem if it was single target, which is why Entangling has it and I am fine with it.

 

Still wish EMP would have a slightly faster cooldown.

Edited October 28, 2020 by JayboH

[Luminara]

7 hours ago, Monos King said:

Fighting against a level 54 AV on a level 51 mastermind, archvillain to-hit went from 40.16 to 39.92. This is a difference of a mere 0.24 to-hit from something offering -30%.

 

Are you saying that the -ToHit was only reduced by 0.24% when you used Flash Arrow, or that the resistance to -ToHit was only reduced by 0.24% when you used Acid?

 

If it's the former, there's something horribly wrong.

 

If it's the latter, then I have to agree with your assessment of the -res -ToHit debuff.  A 0.24-0.33% increase to a -ToHit applied wouldn't make any difference.  It needs improvement.

[Luminara]

13 hours ago, 4th.survivor said:

You can point out that I'm choosing to reintroduce complexity into my rotation by adding in entangling, but you are just as conveniently sidestepping that the secondary effect added to the power is entirely out of line with others of the same sort

 

I'm saying that it's irrelevant.  It doesn't matter if this net arrow has -Res and that net arrow has Energy damage that one over there has neither.  Powers don't have to be directly comparable simply because they have similar graphics or names.  That train left the station in 2003.  There are so many powers that have been copied, slightly modified and re-introduced as new powers that it would take me a week to find and list all of them.

 

Electrified Net Arrow is a copy and modification of Entangling Arrow, which is a copy and modification of Web Grenade, which is a copy and modification of the base Immobilize power used for all blaster secondaries, controller/dominator primaries, etc.  That's how powers have been designed and implemented in Co* since 2003.  Entangling have -Res added as a secondary effect is just standard operating procedure for creating or reworking powers in Co*.

 

Also, sets should have differentiation.  That's also standard operating procedure in Co*.  No-one wants the sets to be clones of one another with the only difference being the graphics.  No-one wants powers to be clones of one another with the only difference being the graphics.  Part of what makes this game worth playing, despite its age, is that there are so many different things in it to play with.  Every set has an identity which isn't replicated by other sets.  Every set does its own thing.  For years and years, TA's identity, TA's thing, was just being copies of powers from other sets, plus OSA.  It's finally being differentiated in ways that should've been done fifteen years ago.  It's finally something more than bits and bobs thrown into a box and given a bow and arrow graphical effect.  That's a very good thing.

 

13 hours ago, 4th.survivor said:

and that any Defender or /TA user remotely concerned with being effective let alone optimal will be picking up this power and spamming it in their rotation against bosses+, even as power consolidation is a stated design goal of the revamp.

 

I'm not overlooking that, either.  What I am trying to help you understand is that it won't be nearly as onerous as you imply, because the debuffs are stronger and the durations are longer.

 

Entangling's -Res lasts 30s.  Acid's only lasted 20s.  That's ten extra seconds of doing anything but debuffing.

 

Disruption's effects persist for 45s, it used to be 30s.  That's 15 extra seconds, presuming you were re-applying Disruption at the end of its duration, plus the time you're not spending re-applying Acid's original -Res.

 

PGA's -Dam lasts for 60s now.  It used to be 20s.  And the debuff value is doubled, with half of it being flagged irresistible.  You not only don't have to spam it, you're actually getting something out of using it now.

 

Flash Arrow's duration wasn't changed, but the debuff value was more than doubled, and even the irresistible half is higher than the entire debuff was previously.  Better, without being more burdensome.

 

Glue has more -Recharge than Glue + Entangling applied before, the duration is twice as long as it was before.  More effective, less spamming necessary.

 

Even Acid Arrow, despite having a different type of -Res in it now, lasts longer than the live version of Acid.  30s versus 20s.  You have less work with the changed Acid.  Yes, you have to spend the extra 1.188s applying Entangling once every 30s in addition to using Acid if you want the extra 20% -Res, but Acid's animation time is 1.98s, and you were having to re-apply that every 20s, rather than every 30s.  Even with just these changes, putting the AoE -Res in Disruption, adding extra single-target -Res in Entangling and changing what resistances Acid debuffs, you're actually saving several seconds in a 30s window, because Acid has the longest animation in the set (shared with EMP Arrow).  Additionally, not having to use it in conjunction with PGA in order to achieve the full 40% -Res we're currently capable of applying is a not-insignificant improvement, especially for solo play.  No more of that DoT breaking the Sleep, which has always been a major QoL issue.

 

All of the changes are moving TA toward less spamming, more focused debuffing.  Every one of these powers requires you to use them 1/3 to 1/2 as frequently to maintain optimal efficiency, and together, the changes shave off huge chunks of time we used to have to spend re-applying powers with short durations.

 

Let's take an AV fight and break down the time spent using TA now.  Open with Flash, Glue, Acid, Disruption, PGA, OSA, EMP - 10.428s.  At 20s, re-apply Acid and PGA - 3.3s.  At 30s, re-apply Disruption and Glue - 2.64s.  At 40s, re-apply Acid and PGA - 3.3s.  At 45s, re-apply OSA - 1.32s.  At 60s, restart the cycle (EMP Arrow isn't usable again at this point, will come back up in 25-30s) - 8.448s.  That's 30s of your minute spent debuffing.

 

New TA AV fight timing: open with Flash, Glue, Acid, Disruption, PGA, OSA, EMP, and Entangling - 11.616.  At 30s, re-apply Acid and Entangling - 3.3s.  At 45s, re-apply Disruption and OSA - 2.64s.  At 60s, re-apply Flash, Glue, Acid, Entangling and PGA - 6.996s.  In the same 60 second window, you're only spending ~24s debuffing.  You're being required to spam TA powers for 6 fewer second, even with Entangling in your rotation.  You could throw Ice Arrow into your rotation and still save 3-4s over the previous rotation.  This TA is numerically less spammy than the other TA, even if you're using the Kitchen Sink Arrow.

 

13 hours ago, 4th.survivor said:

I get that trick arrow is tricky to get right.  Essentially it's a MM or Corr secondary support set being billed as a primary support

 

That is wrong.  No sugar-coating, it's just wrong.  TA was created two issues before corruptors or masterminds existed.  It is and always has been, first and foremost, a defender primary.  It was made and balanced for defenders.  What controllers, corruptors and masterminds receive is a defender primary appropriately scaled by archetype modifiers, not the other way around.

 

13 hours ago, 4th.survivor said:

and rather than incorporating a theme across its powers it sort of forms a grab bag of effects from other sets like ice, earth, sonic, poison, rad/elec, etc.

 

It was created from powers in Devices, Sonic (which was being worked on at the same time that TA was), Rad and Earth, plus a couple of new powers.  But it has a theme.  It's always had a theme.  It may not be a theme that fits everyone's taste, but it's still thematic.  For the record, that theme was copied in the very next Issue after TA was released.  The copy had better powers across the board, and replacements for under-performing powers.  It was named Traps.

 

13 hours ago, 4th.survivor said:

Should we expect -20% res in Traps/web grenade, since it's also a t1 immob in a support set? Or -13% res in Blaster/Tac Arrow/electrified net arrow, the same secondary effect at blaster scale in virtually the same power/set at blaster schedule?  The answer to both those questions is and probably should remain 'No,' but the dissonance this causes with Trick Arrow/entangling arrow is undeniable.

 

I disagree.  The whole point of different sets having different powers with different effects is to provide different experiences when playing.  That's the core idea behind this game.  No two sets play exactly alike.  The addition of -Res to Entangling doesn't create dissonance, it creates differentiation.

 

13 hours ago, 4th.survivor said:

The proposed change as it stands actually makes better sense as a different power entirely, despite this not being the place to propose complete redesigns (which I am not).  It would fit better as something like Sonic Arrow, a 20% res debuff arrow patterned after Sonic/sonic siphon, which it more closely resembles. If that was done I doubt anyone would bat an eye at this power, except inevitably I'm sure someone would crawl out of the work wailing that they had their t1 single target immob taken away.

And the reason it's annoying is because the effort was expended to do this while there is a perfectly good home for this effect elsewhere in the set, in a power that describes this effect exactly.

 

Here's the problem with that - Entangling isn't going away.  The original development team had what we refer to as "the cottage rule".  You can look it up, but basically, it means powers aren't removed outright unless they're so drastically broken that they're unworkable and impossible to improve.  Once something is in the game, it's in the game.  @Captain Powerhouse is sticking to the cottage rule, so Entangling isn't going to be replaced by a different power.  That means it has to have some value added to it, because it's pure, utter, unquestionably crap as it stands.  Yes, it has some utility in the very early game, yes, it's useful for controllers to set up containment, but realistically, it's a bad fucking power that adds nothing worthwhile to the set.  If I had my druthers, I'd rip it out and replace it with anything more useful.  An arrow that fired cat poop and crashed the game would be more palatable, as far as I'm concerned.  But it's in the set, we're stuck with it, and @Captain Powerhouse made an effort to give it some more utility and value by sticking an additional 20% -Res into it so TA players could have both a bonus to stack with Disruption and a reason not to despise the power with the entirety of their souls (yeah, i really hate it that much).

 

So it doesn't really matter if you or I or anyone else thinks another power would be appropriate in place of Entangling.  We have Entangling, we're always going to have Entangling.  If the -Res is taken out of Entangling and crammed into another power, like back into Acid as a single-target effect on the primary target, it puts Entangling right back where it was before the change, a bad joke for every TA who can't skip it (everyone except defenders).  It's at least moderately worthwhile this way, especially for the three archetypes who can't skip it, and that's miles ahead of where it stands on the servers now.

 

13 hours ago, 4th.survivor said:

Granted.  But as with my exchange with Monos, I find myself being pinned to defend positions I am not interested in defending.  I like the changes, but there are a lot.  I am focusing my efforts on the ones I see as problematic, and that focus has since narrowed.  Please don't take that as me being somehow ungrateful for the full scope of changes presented, or dismissive of the work being done by the team to get to this point, or the struggle of TA/ players who lived with their idiosyncratic bag of tools all this time and are on the cusp of standing in the light of recognition.  I like what we have, I think it can be done better without scrapping what we have, I hope those ideas are given consideration. At some point a conversation moves from broad ideas where there is consensus to areas of specific complexity where there is disagreement. I reject the notion that 'we get what we get,' and am hopeful that if enough fans echo the sentiment, and are able to competently make their case, then they will be heard. I will take the temperature in the room though that I am perhaps past the point of beating a dead horse here, if indeed this is a distraction from uncovering the nuts and bolts of the revamp, and let you have the last word should you wish. Ultimately, the devs will decide what version of trick arrow sees play.

 

I hear all of that and I'm completely on board.  But I'm also approaching this from the perspective of someone who understands the mechanics, the limitations, the mindset of the original development teams, @Captain Powerhouse's thoughts and approach, and more.  I don't have to exchange PMs with @Captain Powerhouse to understand why he did what he did, because I can look at the changes and it's obvious to me.  I understand a lot of things, because dug into the mechanics with various characters, I tested and experimented, I spent years discussing these things with Castle, and I understand them better now than I did in the past (and if you know who i am, then you know i understood them pretty well back then).

 

I know that there are things which absolutely will not change.  I know there are things which can be wiggled a little.  I know which powers can be tweaked and which ones can't, and the whys and wherefores of these things.  I know what the balance goals are and how they're being met.  And while there are ways I, or you, or anyone, would've approached this revamp differently, I know the end result is the same - TA is better across the board.  Am I thrilled at the prospect of "having" to take Entangling on my TA defenders, at the thought of "having" to use it every time I want to fight an AV because I know that not doing so would be lazy?  No, of course not.  But it's still a better power than it was, and I still have the choice to take it, use it, skip it, whatever.  And I'm also not just settling for whatever hand-outs might be offered.  I'm expecting the absolute best that can be done, nothing less.  I'm either going to be amazed, or I'm going to be beating down @Captain Powerhouse's front door and waving a chainsaw in his face.... and thus far, I've been amazed.

TA has always been too spammy.  It's also always been too weak.  We can move toward being grossly over-powered with two or three powers and cut the spam entirely, or we can move toward having more utility spread among more powers, reduce the spam to a manageable level and still allow the player to feel effective.  We're doing the latter, and I honestly feel that it's the better approach.  All of the major issues with TA are being addressed, and even changes that have some people scratching their heads or outright disagreeing with, have a purpose and help move TA in the right direction.  But there are some things that just aren't going to change.  Every power has to have some purpose beyond existing to fill a tier slot.  In order to make TA more effective and less spammy, some powers have to be improved, and others have to be repurposed.  None of them can be outright changed, but they can be given new use and utility, and that's what's being done now.

 

I'm really, truly not being dismissive of anyone's concerns or disagreements with what's being done.  But I see things from a very different perspective than the average gamer, the average Co* player, or even the average power-gamer.  I didn't need to be in the closed beta, and, in fact, was only in it for the last two weeks, in order to see exactly what's going on with TA and what every aspect of these changes entails.  I know what's going on with these changes, even if I'm not expressing myself as clearly as I try, and I am making an effort to share that perspective with everyone, just as you're making an effort to share your perspective.

 

By all means, complain about everything you don't like with the changes.  But realize, some of them are necessary, and all of them make sense when you look at them as part of a whole, and some of the things you don't want to happen are going to happen simply because they have to if TA is to move out of the sub-basement closet and into the bigger world.  This isn't a "last word", this is an invitation to discuss, to ask questions, to debate merits.  That's what I've always been here for.

Edited October 28, 2020 by Luminara
Off by a hair

[Luminara]

10 hours ago, Wavicle said:

Has something changed about how Glue works?

Correct me if I'm wrong, on Live, if a mob that was not hit by Glue when I fired it runs into the glue he then gets caught in it.

On Test it seems like anything not in the Glue when it's fired will not be effected if they run into it. That seems unfortunate.

 

...

 

@Captain Powerhouse, did you remove Glue's pseudo-pet and replace it with a redirect?

[Luminara]

7 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

I wonder why Lts and Bosses have a -Resist ToHit floor that is so high.

 

The hit calculation used for critters used to be based on ToHit.  The Purple Patch was probably where this comes from, since the goal of that change was to make not only +X foes harder, but also to make higher ranks of critters harder.

[KaizenSoze]

Finally, got a partner today, fire/dm tanker. We tried out Inferno, easy at 4x8.

 

I even pulled Inferno aggro off him a couple of times. Due to all the debuff and AOE.

 

Inferno's toHit resistance is 90%, so Acid Arrow barely scratched that, but I did get the 18% un-resistable debuff.

Edited October 28, 2020 by KaizenSoze

[WindDemon21]

19 hours ago, Luminara said:

 

-Range was tested in a previous round of TA changes.  It's brokenly easy to game.  Definitely not happening with TA, or likely any ranged set of any kind.

Yeah I figured lol but would be fun hah

[WindDemon21]

15 hours ago, Wavicle said:

Has something changed about how Glue works?

Correct me if I'm wrong, on Live, if a mob that was not hit by Glue when I fired it runs into the glue he then gets caught in it.

On Test it seems like anything not in the Glue when it's fired will not be effected if they run into it. That seems unfortunate.

@Captain Powerhouse
don't forget to fix this power to be location based when you fix this.

 

Alternatively, like sentinel SR (master brawler/pb) maybe include both versions of the power for people to choose who still want it to be target based but are too lazy to simply make a bind/macro of powexeclocation. But for so many reasons it needs to be location based.

[KaizenSoze]

So, I tried an MM Ninja/TA out. I am pretty clueless with MMs. Take that in consideration.

 

@Monos King What is the soloing expectation for MMs? I understand that Ninja are high damage, super squishy.

 

I was able to solo at 51 4x8 Council and CoTs easily. I lost one minion over two missions. I just FA then run into the middle and start debuffing and AOEing.

 

This build was whipped up with a little research on the MM forum.

 

Spoiler

Villain Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.6.1.25
https://github.com/Crytilis/mids-reborn-hero-designer

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Magic Mastermind
Primary Power Set: Ninjas
Secondary Power Set: Trick Arrow
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Concealment
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Mace Mastery

Villain Profile:
Level 1: Call Genin -- OvrFrc-Dam/KB(A), OvrFrc-Acc/Dmg(3), SprMarofS-Acc/Dmg(3), SprMarofS-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(5), CaltoArm-+Def(Pets)(5), SlbAll-Build%(7)
Level 1: Entangling Arrow -- GrvAnc-Acc/Immob/Rchg(A)
Level 2: Flash Arrow -- DarWtcDsp-ToHitDeb(A), DarWtcDsp-ToHitDeb/Rchg(7), DarWtcDsp-ToHitDeb/EndRdx(9), DarWtcDsp-ToHitdeb/Rchg/EndRdx(9)
Level 4: Glue Arrow -- TmpRdn-EndRdx/Rchg/Slow(A), TmpRdn-Acc/Slow(40), TmpRdn-Dmg/Slow(40), TmpRdn-Rng/Slow(40)
Level 6: Train Ninjas -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 8: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(15), RechRdx-I(46)
Level 10: Ice Arrow -- UnbCns-Dam%(A), GhsWdwEmb-Dam%(15), NrnSht-Dam%(17), Lck-%Hold(17), GldNet-Dam%(19), GhsWdwEmb-Hold/Rng(19)
Level 12: Call Jounin -- SprCmmoft-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(A), SprCmmoft-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(21), SprMarofS-Dmg/EndRdx(21), SprMarofS-Acc/EndRdx(23), EdcoftheM-Dmg(23), EdcoftheM-PetDef(25)
Level 14: Boxing -- Acc-I(A)
Level 16: Poison Gas Arrow -- Acc-I(A)
Level 18: Tough -- GldArm-3defTpProc(A), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(25), Ags-ResDam(27), Ags-Psi/Status(27), Ags-ResDam/EndRdx(29), StdPrt-ResKB(29)
Level 20: Acid Arrow -- PstBls-Dam%(A), Ann-ResDeb%(31), Bmbdmt-+FireDmg(31), ShlBrk-%Dam(31), TchofLadG-%Dam(33), AchHee-ResDeb%(33)
Level 22: Weave -- RedFrt-Def(A), RedFrt-Def/EndRdx(33), RedFrt-Def/Rchg(34)
Level 24: Stealth -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(39)
Level 26: Oni -- SprCmmoft-Acc/Dmg(A), SprCmmoft-Dmg/EndRdx(34), SprCmmoft-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(34), SprCmmoft-Rchg/PetAoEDef(36), SprMarofS-Dmg(36), SprMarofS-EndRdx/+Resist/+Regen(36)
Level 28: Disruption Arrow -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 30: Invisibility -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 32: Kuji In Zen -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 35: Oil Slick Arrow -- Rgn-Dmg(A), Rgn-Dmg/Rchg(37), Rgn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(37), Rgn-Acc/Rchg(37), Rgn-Dmg/EndRdx(39), Rgn-Knock%(39)
Level 38: EMP Arrow -- SprEnt-Rchg/AbsorbProc(A), SprEnt-Acc/Hold/End/Rchg(42), SprEnt-Acc/Hold(43), SprEnt-Hold/Rchg(43), SprEnt-End/Rchg(43), SprEnt-Acc/Hold/End(46)
Level 41: Maneuvers -- Rct-ResDam%(A), Rct-Def(42), Rct-Def/EndRdx(42)
Level 44: Web Envelope -- TraoftheH-Acc/Rchg(A), TraoftheH-EndRdx/Immob(45), TraoftheH-Acc/EndRdx(45), TraoftheH-Immob/Acc(45)
Level 47: Mace Beam Volley -- SuddAcc--KB/+KD(A), FrcFdb-Rechg%(48), ExpStr-Dam%(48), PstBls-Dam%(48), Bmbdmt-+FireDmg(50), Bmbdmt-Dam(50)
Level 49: Scorpion Shield -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(50)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Clr-Stlth(A)
Level 1: Supremacy
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(11), Mrc-Rcvry+(11), Prv-Absorb%(46)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- SynSck-EndMod/+RunSpeed(A), SynSck-EndMod(13), PrfShf-End%(13)
Level 1: Genin
Level 12: Jounin
Level 26: Oni
------------

 

 

 

[Captain Powerhouse]

The glue arrow was changed simply because the new buffed duration/scale means it needed to be changed so it cant be double stacked, something that is hard with pseudopets unless the pets get entirely killed off and replaced with a new one.

 

Currently, Disruption Arrow is doing that. I will look into doing the same for glue arrow and restore its location based form.

 

[oedipus_tex]

How do we feel about the debuff durations in Ice Arrow?

 

Part of me's like, wow 1 minute is a long debuff. That's 30 seconds longer than other -Special debuffs on a very generous recharge schedule to boot.

 

The other part of me is like, well, each set should have bragging rights to a few things. So is there anything hugely broken about the 1 min duration I'm not picking up on? 

[KaizenSoze]

 

1 minute ago, oedipus_tex said:

How do we feel about the debuff durations in Ice Arrow?

 

Part of me's like, wow 1 minute is a long debuff. That's 30 seconds longer than other -Special debuffs on a very generous recharge schedule to boot.

 

The other part of me is like, well, each set should have bragging rights to a few things. So is there anything hugely broken about the 1 min duration I'm not picking up on? 

 

Don't tell anyone, but I just solo'ed MoITF and MoML at the same time with just Ice Arrow. 😛

Unless it causes an issue in PvP. My only problem with IA is that I forget to use enough.

So many good powers now!

[WindDemon21]

22 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

The glue arrow was changed simply because the new buffed duration/scale means it needed to be changed so it cant be double stacked, something that is hard with pseudopets unless the pets get entirely killed off and replaced with a new one.

 

Currently, Disruption Arrow is doing that. I will look into doing the same for glue arrow and restore its location based form.

 

Woooo omg so happy and excited!!! This frees up so many more playstyles with it!

[Luminara]

19 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

The glue arrow was changed simply because the new buffed duration/scale means it needed to be changed so it cant be double stacked, something that is hard with pseudopets unless the pets get entirely killed off and replaced with a new one.

 

It would be fine the way it is now, if the recharge time were reduced to 30s.  Then players wouldn't have to pull to the Glue, they could take the Glue to the spawn.

[Monos King]

8 hours ago, Luminara said:

If it's the latter, then I have to agree with your assessment of the -res -ToHit debuff.  A 0.24-0.33% increase to a -ToHit applied wouldn't make any difference.  It needs improvement.

It is the latter, yes. To be fair. the other elements of Acid Arrow are still quite nice in most situations, but yes once you peer into how -ToHit is actually being augmented (not at all) and how the other benefits fall short once enemies get debuff resistance...it needs a bit of tuning. Most enemies that have debuff res are either immune or have 80% or higher. With normal Resistance, 80%-100% are values you just never see, unless they pop a t9. It's enough to render -res abilities mostly pointless, and there are plentiful sources of those in game to somewhat make up for it.

 

Even in it's current state, Acid Arrow is still quite useful, but if acid arrow wants to maintain use as a unique debuff, it could be made unresistable. Let's see what that would look like, see if it seems too OP. @oedipus_tex Lowering the values to around 10-12% -debuff res should prevent it from being overwhelming. Let's look at it from the most extreme state, a full team of Trick Arrows, and assuming it offers -10% unresistable debuff res. On a full team of only Trick Arrow users, they would be able to bring down an even leveled AV to 5% debuff res, which would be devastating...but they would not be a self-sufficient team. It would be a risky, but hilarious, maneuver. They could begin draining endurance pretty easily, but AVs have a ton of it and low endurance costs. Incarnates could probably work something out pretty easily, but a team of incarnates could dominate an even level AV with only pool powers.

 

Against a +3 AV (very likely situation due to the Alpha Slot), that is level 54, the team of trick-arrows would be doing -52% debuff res, leaving the AV with 35% debuff res, enough to still fend off the main threat (end drain) which TA's don't have much of to begin with. It will be a very effective move, nonetheless. 

 

Against a +4 AV who is level 54, the team of Tricks would be able to dish out -38.4 debuff res, and lower the AV to 48.6% debuff res to all. 

 

All of this assumes the AV does not have further sources of debuff res, which most do. Lord Recluse is immune to -recharge no matter what, and Synapse is immune to -endurance no matter what as well, to name a few. Would not be unresistable in PvP.

 

Now, lower level AVs have lower base Debuff Res; Level 30s having only 75% debuff res for instance. This should be compensated for, regardless of if the -debuff res is made unresistable or not, by

 

Making -Debuff Resistance scale to player level in the same way -Special does. 

The above is a big take-away, and I think would let us increase the level 50 values even if we decide not to make the debuff unresistable. 

 

Couple Notes:

 

1. AV To-Hit Floor is 30%
2. -Debuff Res doesn't scale to level currently, possibly should to allow for further improvements.
3. Many AV's have additional debuff res that brings them to 100%, making acid arrow literally useless while still resistable. Some AVs have +1000% debuff res, making them immune even while Acid Arrow is unresistable 
4. Being unresistable wouldn't have extreme benefit in most situations, as few non AVs have debuff res to begin with.

 

[Bopper]

Ice Arrow is incredibly strong. I understand not wanting to have to spam a power that is already going to be easily perma'd, but it might be fair to reduce the -Special effects to something like 45s. But ultimately, I'm good with where it's at.

Edited October 28, 2020 by Bopper

[Monos King]

31 minutes ago, KaizenSoze said:

@Monos King What is the soloing expectation for MMs? I understand that Ninja are high damage, super squishy.

Depends. If you are a full incarnate than you should be soloing missions pretty well regardless of your powerset combination. Certain sets like demons/cold, thugs/dark or bots/time are AV killers, and should be able to deal with above 50 AVs pretty well with or without Alpha. And then sets like mercs/ninjas are super squishy and are very good if they can take on an even level AV or survive +2 levels with no incarnates. An extremely good MM won't have any of their pets dying on them during x8 missions, but only like 3 or 4 combinations are capable of that and most of them are demons/thugs/bots. 

 

So if you aren't an incarnate, your ninjas/TA is doing very good, which speaks highly to the TA improvements. When I was testing non-incarnate and was doing +2x5 Circle of Thorns and Carnies with only a few minion deaths, I would say that's pretty exceptional for a TA MM.

[Luminara]

33 minutes ago, Monos King said:

It is the latter, yes.

 

Then we're looking at the resistance debuff for-ToHit only really being applicable to minions, which we can already manage quite well without it, and extremely situational cases (a boss with a ToHit buff, for example).

 

If the debuff can't be applied meaningfully, in the situations where it's actually needed, it should be removed entirely and replaced with something more useful.

[Luminara]

34 minutes ago, Monos King said:

Depends. If you are a full incarnate than you should be soloing missions pretty well regardless of your powerset combination. Certain sets like demons/cold, thugs/dark or bots/time are AV killers, and should be able to deal with above 50 AVs pretty well with or without Alpha. And then sets like mercs/ninjas are super squishy and are very good if they can take on an even level AV or survive +2 levels with no incarnates. An extremely good MM won't have any of their pets dying on them during x8 missions, but only like 3 or 4 combinations are capable of that and most of them are demons/thugs/bots. 

 

So if you aren't an incarnate, your ninjas/TA is doing very good, which speaks highly to the TA improvements. When I was testing non-incarnate and was doing +2x5 Circle of Thorns and Carnies with only a few minion deaths, I would say that's pretty exceptional for a TA MM.

 

Necro is the real test.

[WindDemon21]

3 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

Then we're looking at the resistance debuff for-ToHit only really being applicable to minions, which we can already manage quite well without it, and extremely situational cases (a boss with a ToHit buff, for example).

 

If the debuff can't be applied meaningfully, in the situations where it's actually needed, it should be removed entirely and replaced with something more useful.

This.

[Luminara]

39 minutes ago, Bopper said:

Ice Arrow is incredibly strong. I understand not wanting to have to spam a power that is already going to be easily perma'd, but it might be fair to reduce the -Special effects to something like 45s. But ultimately, I'm good with where it's at.

 

It's also single-target and relatively situational.  The damage debuff might be useful on everything, but the other debuffs aren't necessarily as utilitarian, and realistically, instead of trying to pretend to be an AoE by firing Ice Arrow every time it's up, it'd be faster and more efficient to just attack and move on.  So yeah, I think it's okay as is, too.

[Wavicle]

1 hour ago, Luminara said:

 

It would be fine the way it is now, if the recharge time were reduced to 30s.  Then players wouldn't have to pull to the Glue, they could take the Glue to the spawn.

Only if it was also made Bigger. I shouldn't have to fire Glue twice on the same spawn unless I put it in the wrong place.