Focused Feedback: Trick Arrow Revamp

[Replacement]

19 hours ago, 4th.survivor said:

2) Yes, that is a problem.  Introducing new effects to powers where it makes no sense does not make this problem go away, as now we are obliged to pick up entangling where we might have skipped it before.

I understand there's a budget.  I'm not suggesting the budget be broken, but I am suggesting the powers do what they ought to.  I would prefer that acid arrow keeps its -res in addition to this new effect, and that disrupting arrow keeps its existing (or slightly higher) -res in addition to its new effect, and that entangling arrow remain a -rech immobilize, and that the values of these debuffs merely be adjusted to stay on budget in a way that lets the whole set perform more towards the goal.  An alternative compromise that still accomplishes your desire to have a mass -res in one power and a single target -res for hard targets would be to move the aoe -res into disruption as has been done, and have Acid Arrow apply its -res only to the initial target and not the AoE, while keeping the -debuff res for the AoE portion.

This is good input.  So let's see what that would look compared to current build:

• If Disruption and Acid kept their -Res, we are now back to two powers providing the same core effect (aoe -res).  So we have two instances of -20% resist, and no space for the additional -20% ST resist.  Whereas the current build gives us a single -40% resist arrow (DA) for the masses, and 20% more ST in a convenient T1 package.
  • Your notion of making AA provide the ST -resist to the actual target selected (no aoe) is workable though.
• Entangling as an immob/-recharge means pulling it out of Glue Arrow.  So, this current build actually dropped the comically small -Recharge from Entangling Arrow to make Glue Arrow a decent aoe Recharge slow.  We went from 12.5% ST and 20% AOE to a 40% aoe recharge!  Meanwhile, Ice Arrow (again following the paradigm of one AoE and one ST) gets an additional 25% ST recharge slow (this is doubled).  

I hope this explains my perspective some.  We are threading a needle: on the one hand, there is the sense that TA needs to maintain a sane power budget.  On the other hand is recognizing TA was hilariously underbudgeted previously.

 

so sheer numbers talk:

-18% ToHit (if the game data isn't a bug and the patch notes are just outdated) - AoE

-50% damage - AoE | -20% damage - ST (Ice Arrow)

-40% recharge slow - AoE | -25% additional recharge slow - ST (Ice Arrow again)

-40% resist all - AoE | -20% resist all - ST

 

and that still leaves us several things I'm not going to calculate:

* Impact of debuff resistance debuff

* Impact of strong -Special in Ice Arrow

* Impact of -40/60 resist on all these huge -Damage buffs (see my page 1 post where I break down this mechanical interaction)

Edited October 26, 2020 by Replacement

[brass_eagle]

7 minutes ago, macskull said:

Benumb/Weaken vs Ice Arrow

Defender: 74.50%/86.50%

Corruptor: 55.87%/69.20%

Controller: 93.13%/69.20%

Mastermind: 74.50%/51.90%

 

I'd honestly argue that even Weaken's -special value is too high for its cooldown especially because it's an AoE.

The aoe for Weaken is quite small and only half the value for other targets. But Poison needs a looking at anyway.

[Luminara]

8 minutes ago, macskull said:

Ice Arrow's -special is way too good. It's got roughly the same value as Benumb and Weaken but lasts for 60s instead of 30s and has an 18s recharge (Benumb is 120s, Weaken is 16s).  The -special should not be lasting more than 30s and should probably be about 1/5 of the current value. It also seems to be using a different modifier table than the other -special powers.

 

A duration reduction to 30s would be fine, but given that Weaken's AoE -Special is nearly the same strength (75% versus Ice's 86%), in addition to the higher -Dam (nearly twice Ice's) plus -ToHit (same base as Flash Arrow), and Benumb's -Special is also 75%, plus Benumb has significantly higher -Dam (triple Ice's), and -Regen (500%), I don't think gutting Ice's -Special is warranted.  It's not going to hold the primary target, the boss, in one application, and it's lacking the extras that Benumb and Weaken bring to the team.

[Luminara]

22 minutes ago, Replacement said:

We went from 12.5% ST and 20% AOE to a 40% aoe slow!

 

40% AoE -Recharge.  Glue is 90% Slow.

[macskull]

24 minutes ago, brass_eagle said:

The aoe for Weaken is quite small and only half the value for other targets. But Poison needs a looking at anyway.

While true, clever application of Weaken can apply even higher values than any other power because the main portion and splash portion stack with each other.

[brass_eagle]

5 minutes ago, macskull said:

While true, clever application of Weaken can apply even higher values than any other power because the main portion and splash portion stack with each other.

I guess that's true, but that's also pretty hard to do in most applications I think. However, that won't be the case with Ice Arrow. Again that's a Poison Problem.

[macskull]

In fairness, most of my point about the -special value (the duration is an obvious issue and is out of line with every other power like it) is concerns with spammable -special in PvP and it's easy enough to adjust the values for PvP separately.

[Draeth Darkstar]

I'm not familiar enough with TA to have a ton of first impressions before testing, other than that the changes look like some big steps in the right direction.

 

The EMP arrow change seems... strange, though. It's very weird for an area-based support power to not affect the caster, especially a T9. On paper the buff doesn't look like it would be outrageous to give to the caster, either, can we get some insight there as to why?

[4th.survivor]

47 minutes ago, Replacement said:

This is good input.  So let's see that would look compared to current build:

• If Disruption and Acid kept their -Res, we are now back to two powers providing the same core effect (aoe -res).  So we have two instances of -20% resist, and no space for the additional -20% ST resist.  Whereas the current build gives us a single -40% resist arrow (DA) for the masses, and 20% more ST in a convenient T1 package.
  • Your notion of making AA provide the ST resist to ST hit is workable though.
• Entangling as an immob/-recharge means pulling it out of Glue Arrow.  So, this current build actually dropped the comically small -Recharge from Entangling Arrow to make Glue Arrow a decent aoe Recharge slow.  We went from 12.5% ST and 20% AOE to a 40% aoe slow!  Meanwhile, Ice Arrow (again following the paradigm of one AoE and one ST) gets an additional 25% ST recharge slow (this is doubled).  

I hope this explains my perspective some.  We are threading a needle: on the one hand, there is the sense that TA needs to maintain a sane power budget.  On the other hand is recognizing TA was hilariously underbudgeted previously.

 

so sheer numbers talk:

-18% ToHit (if the game data isn't a bug and the patch notes are just outdated) - AoE

-50% damage - AoE | -20% damage - ST (Ice Arrow)

-40% recharge slow - AoE | -25% additional recharge slow - ST (Ice Arrow again)

-40% resist all - AoE | -20% resist all - ST

 

and that still leaves us several things I'm not going to calculate:

* Impact of debuff resistance debuff

* Impact of strong -Special in Ice Arrow

* Impact of -40/60 resist on all these huge -Damage buffs (see my page 1 post where I break down this mechanical interaction)

Thanks, there is a subtlety to discussing these tweaks that is sometimes lost in forum conversation.

The more I think about it, the more I like acid arrow getting the single target -res.  Arrows are unidirectional, so even if they have a payload, they are usually designed to stick into something (with a few exceptions: explosive arrow and emp arrow airburst near/above the target, and glue/poison gas are fired into the ground to release their payload, etc).  Whereas mortars and grenades shower an area.  So having acid mortar and venom grenade apply their -20% resistance broadly in an AoE while acid arrow applies its specifically to a target makes sense, with some sort of lessened splash effect to accompany the graphic of acid spraying all over (the -def, etc).

But the more I think about it, the more I think the -debuff resistance should be moved from acid arrow to disrupting arrow.  I don't expect there will be much agreement here, but if 'sonic waves' or whatever can disrupt a target's molecular structure enough to weaken its ability to withstand damage (-res), I think it's just as believable that it can disrupt the target to make it more susceptible to debuffs and the like (moreso than acid anyway!). As long as we're moving the -debuff res to disrupting then I'd suggest moving the -end and recovery effects to EMP arrow, and tuning up this aspect of it.  Have it be like a true sapper arrow, combining aspects of rad emission's EM pulse and Elec's sapping qualities, rather than providing some kind of targeted aoe buff.

Where does this leave entangling and glue arrow?  I don't know, but obviously I think they ought to stay in their wheelhouse, offering a single target immob/-rech, and an aoe slow/-rech, with one or the other giving you a tool for single targets/groups, corruptors/mm's being forced into either the single target or dual role while defenders have the option of either with their primary pick, and players taking both having options to stack an effect with an opportunity cost for their other powers.

[Jimmy]

On 10/24/2020 at 1:38 PM, Jimmy said:

Power Changes (Numbers provided are Defender values)

•  Glue Arrow
  • -Recharge debuff increased from -20% to -40%
  • Debuff duration increased from 30s to 60s
•  Acid Arrow
  • This power still has a -25% defence debuff

Updated the patch notes with these missing changes.

[ForeverLaxx]

I really feel like Acid Arrow only gained a healing debuff because they didn't want to give it a regen debuff like many people asked for. It's almost useless in PvE content as very few things heal in large enough amounts to want this effect whereas debuffing regen would be universally helpful.

 

I have no idea why this angle was chosen.

[PorkTips]

22 hours ago, carroto said:

Like...the ground?

Like the target of the arrow, aka an enemy. Or a friend, I dont care. But I like the tab targeting for it. If you don't hey fine. I'm just voting the other way.

[PorkTips]

22 hours ago, WindDemon21 said:

Like hit the ground and explode? .......... It's a PATCH of glue, not a "fountain" It thematically should work exactly like OSA, but with glue inside the arrow instead of oil.

 

(and you can STILL just bind location to a target, so you can still use it in the exact same way if it were location based)

Look, you want it to be a placed object on the ground, I want it to hit a targeted foe. We have a different opinion. Lets just move on.

[WindDemon21]

4 minutes ago, PorkTips said:

Look, you want it to be a placed object on the ground, I want it to hit a targeted foe. We have a different opinion. Lets just move on.

Exactly, and /powexeclocation target ALLOWS you to do that. Nothing is being taken away from you besides the laziness of not making a bind/macro.

 

All it would do is ADD the functionality that should have ALWAYS been there, and allow us all to be happy.

[Seed22]

3 hours ago, macskull said:

While true, clever application of Weaken can apply even higher values than any other power because the main portion and splash portion stack with each other.

Poison’s only thing is debuffing. Why...should TA be as good as poison? rather, why should weaken be lowered? It’s fine. By that logic why not reduce or get rid of benumb?

Edited October 25, 2020 by Seed22

[brass_eagle]

11 minutes ago, Seed22 said:

Poison’s only thing is debuffing. Why...should TA be as good as poison?

Poison's is not only a debuff set. It does have a ST heal, and a rez.  Whether or not they are worth taking is... debatable. At any rate this is about TA buffs. Poison may get looked at at a later date. It needs it.

 

(Edit: spelling)

Edited October 25, 2020 by brass_eagle

[WindDemon21]

1 minute ago, Seed22 said:

Poison’s only thing is debuffing. Why...should TA be as good as poison? rather, why should weaken be lowered? It’s fine. By that logic why not reduce or get rid of benumb?

Poisons only thing isn't debuffing. It has an ally heal, ally mez protection, revive, and pbaoe hold.

[Seed22]

1 minute ago, WindDemon21 said:

Poisons only thing isn't debuffing. It has an ally heal, ally mez protection, revive, and pbaoe hold.

Yet those are terribad minus the pbaoe hold. However, back to TA; I do hope Ice arrow keeps it’s -special. Honestly that sounds really cool(no pun intended). And I think Acid Arrow’s -Heal will surpise people in efficiency. War Walkers will be less annoying now with their sudden surge of HP

[Bopper]

1 hour ago, ForeverLaxx said:

I really feel like Acid Arrow only gained a healing debuff because they didn't want to give it a regen debuff like many people asked for. It's almost useless in PvE content as very few things heal in large enough amounts to want this effect whereas debuffing regen would be universally helpful.

 

I have no idea why this angle was chosen.

It does have a regen debuff

[Luminara]

3 minutes ago, Seed22 said:

Yet those are terribad minus the pbaoe hold. However, back to TA; I do hope Ice arrow keeps it’s -special. Honestly that sounds really cool(no pun intended). And I think Acid Arrow’s -Heal will surpise people in efficiency. War Walkers will be less annoying now with their sudden surge of HP

 

And Siege.  Freaking Siege.  Grrrrrrrrrrrr.

[brass_eagle]

4 minutes ago, Bopper said:

It does have a regen debuff

So I did see that it has -40% resistance to regeneration, so this mean that -regen debuffs are more effective? Or is there an actual -regen debuff. Can someone clarify for me?

[ForeverLaxx]

5 minutes ago, Bopper said:

It does have a regen debuff

Where? All I see is the defense debuff, the heal debuff, and the "special" debuff that makes other debuffs stronger (which includes -regen), but no actual -regen effect from Acid Arrow itself.

[WindDemon21]

2 minutes ago, brass_eagle said:

So I did see that it has -40% resistance to regeneration, so this mean that -regen debuffs are more effective? Or is there an actual -regen debuff. Can someone clarify for me?

That means 40% -resistance to regen debuffs, which means the -regen in emp arrow would do more.

[Bopper]

3 minutes ago, brass_eagle said:

So I did see that it has -40% resistance to regeneration, so this mean that -regen debuffs are more effective? Or is there an actual -regen debuff. Can someone clarify for me?

Gotcha, yes, that is confusing actually haha. It is resistance to regen. So it does not lower the targets regeneration by itself. But any regen debuffs you apply afterwards is 40% stronger

[Bopper]

2 minutes ago, ForeverLaxx said:

Where? All I see is the defense debuff, the heal debuff, and the "special" debuff that makes other debuffs stronger (which includes -regen), but no actual -regen effect from Acid Arrow itself.

Sorry, since you were referring to the res(heal) debuff, I assumed your statement on regen debuff was the res(regen) debuff