Focused Feedback: Blaster Secondary Revamp

[arkieboy72472]

So, um....gun drone is better. Thanks! Love, My AR/Dev Blaster now with a better pet!

 

p.s. maybe give time bomb some love? xoxoxo

[Runebound]

5 hours ago, Vanden said:

No, the non-stacking aspect only applies to when it's reapplied by the same caster. Generally, even powers that are set to not stack will still stack from different casters.

That's good to know. Does the non-stacking aspect apply when the same caster uses another (non-stacking) power, or only for repeat use of the same power?

 

And any insight on the other questions?

• How does the Scale affect duration? Does a Scale 12 last twice as long as a Scale 6, or is there another variable in the formula?
• Do Lieutenants come with Mag Protection 2 or 3 (since the Wiki claims both), and does that increase by +1 for each level above yours (for a 51 mob vs a 50 hero, for instance)?
• For the Blaster powers that have changed from Mag 3 to Mag 2 (non-stacking)/ Mag 1 (stacking), does that mean that it now takes four castings to hold a boss and six to CC an even-level EB, or does the stacking work in a different way?

Knowing the answers would help in understanding the effects of the patch.

Edited October 28, 2020 by Runebound

[Vanden]

3 minutes ago, Runebound said:

Does the non-stacking aspect apply when the same caster uses another (non-stacking) power, or only for repeat use of the same power?

Only repeat uses of the same power.

 

3 minutes ago, Runebound said:

How does the Scale affect duration? Does a Scale 12 last twice as long as a Scale 6, or is there another variable in the formula?

Scale is duration. How long a mez lasts is just Scale x AT Mod for mez (which for Blasters is 0.8), plus a bonus for your current combat level.

 

4 minutes ago, Runebound said:

Do Lieutenants come with Mag Protection 2 or 3 (see links above), and does increase by +1 for each level above yours (for a 51 mob vs a 50 hero, for instance)?

Minions needs Mag 2 to be mezzed, lieutenants mag 3, bosses mag 4. Some enemies get powers that grant them protection from mez, same as players. It's not affected by their level relative to you.

 

7 minutes ago, Runebound said:

For the Blaster powers that have changed from Mag 3 to Mag 2 (non-stacking)/ Mag 1 (stacking), does that mean that it now takes four castings to hold a boss and six to CC an even-level EB, or does the stacking work in a different way?

It takes the same amount of castings to hold a boss as before, but it won't last as long as before. EBs will likely not be mezzable with the reduced durations.

[Runebound]

Thanks for the info Vanden.

 

 

 

 

[ForeverLaxx]

I'm never going to get behind any change that "encourages players to get in melee" with a set that has no reason, incentive, or desire to be in melee range. When your entire set is additional ranged damage with control on the side, why do you feel I must be closer to use it? You even made the controls weaker, so they're less reliable at keeping things away from you, a character built around the concept of pure ranged damage.

 

That's what they're trying to do with Tac Arrow and I abhor that direction.

[Vanden]

5 minutes ago, ForeverLaxx said:

I'm never going to get behind any change that "encourages players to get in melee" with a set that has no reason, incentive, or desire to be in melee range. When your entire set is additional ranged damage with control on the side, why do you feel I must be closer to use it? You even made the controls weaker, so they're less reliable at keeping things away from you, a character built around the concept of pure ranged damage.

 

That's what they're trying to do with Tac Arrow and I abhor that direction.

Okay, what Captain Powerhouse actually said on this topic was, "When we say we want to give more incentives to get into melee range, we mean that we want the melee powers that blasters get to be more useful." Since Tactical Arrow does not have any melee attacks, that comment was obviously not meant to reflect on the changes to Tactical Arrow.

[ForeverLaxx]

5 minutes ago, Vanden said:

Okay, what Captain Powerhouse actually said on this topic was, "When we say we want to give more incentives to get into melee range, we mean that we want the melee powers that blasters get to be more useful." Since Tactical Arrow does not have any melee attacks, that comment was obviously not meant to reflect on the changes to Tactical Arrow.

And more and more interaction with this patch feedback process I'm reminded that I'm not a fan of the guy and his "take it or leave it" attitude. I get he's a developer or whatever, and I'm used to things in an Open Beta state being mostly set barring major bugs or minor usability tweaks, but frankly I don't care if he wants to deflect that criticism. They announced this change under the umbrella "get into melee you dummies" update to Blaster Secondaries and I'm going to view it that way.

 

I don't have any interest in arguing this because my feedback is that I don't like it. I'm probably shelving my Archery/TA if this goes live. I can barely stand playing Dark Blast with all its wonky cone ranges and arcs; I'm not going to play a 100% ranged character at two different ranges based solely on changes implemented by someone who thinks that playstyle is "too safe" or whatever. I'm constantly jump-kiting with this character already and having to bound in before bounding out means I should just play a jump-kiting Blapper instead and actually kill things faster in the process.

[Mystic Fortune]

...but 50 feet is not Melee range. Melee range is 7 feet.

[macskull]

8 hours ago, zenblack said:

Toxins - This is currently the worst build-up and I was surprised it wasn't adjusted when looking at Plant. It's effect (Toxins) has a number of problems:

1.) It's a base value, so it's better with low damage powers but it scales extremely poorly, so you are getting huge reduction as opposed to other Build Up's when using heavy hitting powers and having a higher damage bonus.

2.)The Toxin's are also not effected by your current Damage Bonus and don't apply per dot tick (I think the original gimmick they were going for) so the damage is in the doldrums. My suggestion would be to (temporarily?) separate the effect from the power until it can be dealt with and assign it whatever Damage Bonus it should have (I assume anything that isn't Fire is below 100% so, 80-75%?).

Toxins being the worst Build Up replacement... nah that honor goes to Reach for the Limit now that Shinobi doesn't totally suck. At least in the case of Toxins you can slot a Gaussian's chance for BU proc so you get the bonus toxic damage and a build up effect.

[Nemu]

5 hours ago, Mystic Fortune said:

...but 50 feet is not Melee range. Melee range is 7 feet.

But you have to admit, hovering at 80 feet is way more tactical than hovering at 50 feet and opens up more lines of TACTICAL play.

 

For example

[Chris24601]

5 hours ago, Mystic Fortune said:

...but 50 feet is not Melee range. Melee range is 7 feet.

But 50 feet IS Perception range for an even level mob (and its further for higher level ones), so with a 50 foot range you have to aggro the enemy before you can use the electro-net arrow on them.

 

That’s not tactical at all (tactical would be immobilizing a melee enemy as your opener to reduce the number of mobs who can attack you at once.

 

At this point I’ve resigned myself to Captain Power having made up his mind and all this thread is actually for is to vent out spleens and maybe catch bugs in his changes. Even if I’m wrong on that, it at least puts me in the proper frame of mind for preparations.

 

That’s why my last couple of posts, while not stopping asking for reverting the range back up in exchange for other nerfs, have changed to finding workarounds like the best reslotting to keep as much range as possible with as little loss elsewhere.

 

My next step is to go back to live and power through some big merit reward arcs so I’m ready for it (I believe enhancement boosters are 5 each, so I’ll need at least 75 in reserve for that, pretty sure I still have a respec left, then it’s just whatever funds I’ll need for a set of Stupefy, another LotG recharge proc (because Oil Slick is another skippable t9 I don’t have the slots for) and two sets of Artillery to replace the Bombardments in my Archery AoE’s (because as I noted... +range set bonuses make the uneven feel of these changes worse and Artillery’s ranged defense and +Acc will make up for the loss of two slots from the Thunderstrike set going into ENA after this goes live).

 

The net result is I’ll lose about 2 mph off my Hover speed and a percent or so loss off dps, both of which I might yet be able to get back with a few more slotting changes (I’ll be testing that today) and a reluctance to exemp below level 30 since doing so will disproportionately affect the range on a third of my attack chain.

 

That way, if Captain Powerhouse decides to revert it, Great! I’ve now got plenty of merits/influence I can spend on other toons. If not, then I’ll have the respec and enough influence/merits banked to make the expensive changes this change is going to inflict on every Tac Arrow player who wants to try and keep playing as they currently enjoy.

[roBurky]

If blaster secondaries are being looked at, and quality of life changes are being included, I have some requests, if its not too late to introduce more changes.

 

Martial Combat / Reaction Time

• Make the animation interruptible, and maybe also reduce the animation time.
• The quirk of deactivating your absorb and recovery to get a short speed benefit is not practical to experiment with, even out of combat, because the activation animation forces you to stop to reapply it. If it could be done without interrupting movement at least, or even without interrupting your attacks so much, so the only costs are the actual temporary loss of absorb and recovery, and the attention needed to be given to press the buttons, it might fulfil the aim of the design.

 

Devices / Field Operative

• Make it possible to have the recovery benefits applied without the stealth fade visual effect.
• This could be accomplished with a 'no fade' power customisation option. Or it could be a splitting of the power into an auto power with the recovery effects that also grants an unenhancable 'cloaking device' stealth toggle.
• It sucks that if you want to make a blaster themed around technology or weaponry, your character costume has to be hidden in combat, even if this doesn't fit your theme or if you want to admire your character's combat animations, because you can't afford to skip the recovery effects added to this power. This power only became a must-have when the blaster recovery buffs were added to existing powers, which I think was only a recent change (relative to the game's history).

Edited October 28, 2020 by roBurky

[Moonlighter]

8 hours ago, Mystic Fortune said:

...but 50 feet is not Melee range. Melee range is 7 feet.

 

The hardest thing to teach game devs is to avoid making conceptual nerfs for balance, and only change things for the worse if game play demands it. Titan Weapons is an outller that affects game building. Bio Armor is an outlier that affects game building. EMP Arrow is an outlier that affects building. No one is saying Electrified Net Arrow is a problem. Groups are not spamming LFG with cries for Electrified Net Arrow teams to power level them to 50. The devs are nerfing it for purely conceptual reasons in the face of a lot of backlash.

It is a bad hill for the devs to plant their banner on.

 

The other thing that is hard to teach game devs is that once powers are in the game and players have had a chance to establish builds and playstyles around a set/class/build then that is the new design paradigm. The argument that "this was never intended" is irrelevant once the players have had a chance to establish characters with those sets. It's fine to balance if the power is causing actual balance issues, either by creating broken play patterns or by narrowing the effective build options.

 

If the devs have found that an 80 range Electrified Net Arrow, for example, is being abused by hover blasting content and completing something way harder than intended, and that option is not available in multiple other places, then yes that is a real issue that needs to be addressed. If something is an outlier that narrows the conceptual builds that can reach certain levels of performance then yes, that is a real issue that needs to be addressed.

 

My problem is that the game devs are standing their ground on this nerf for conceptual reasons, rather than play issues. If they said that the increased range was causing the build options to be narrowed because then sure, I am behind it. But that's not the reasoning presented.

 

The increased range of the early Tactical Arrow powers has become a feature and advantage of the set for the most important reason of all; the players have adopted the playstyle in game. If the devs are nerfing for conceptual balance reasons, and not listening to feedback, then they are making a mistake.

 

[Blackbird71]

1 hour ago, Moonlighter said:

 

The hardest thing to teach game devs is to avoid making conceptual nerfs for balance, and only change things for the worse if game play demands it. Titan Weapons is an outller that affects game building. Bio Armor is an outlier that affects game building. EMP Arrow is an outlier that affects building. No one is saying Electrified Net Arrow is a problem. Groups are not spamming LFG with cries for Electrified Net Arrow teams to power level them to 50. The devs are nerfing it for purely conceptual reasons in the face of a lot of backlash.

It is a bad hill for the devs to plant their banner on.

 

The other thing that is hard to teach game devs is that once powers are in the game and players have had a chance to establish builds and playstyles around a set/class/build then that is the new design paradigm. The argument that "this was never intended" is irrelevant once the players have had a chance to establish characters with those sets. It's fine to balance if the power is causing actual balance issues, either by creating broken play patterns or by narrowing the effective build options.

 

If the devs have found that an 80 range Electrified Net Arrow, for example, is being abused by hover blasting content and completing something way harder than intended, and that option is not available in multiple other places, then yes that is a real issue that needs to be addressed. If something is an outlier that narrows the conceptual builds that can reach certain levels of performance then yes, that is a real issue that needs to be addressed.

 

My problem is that the game devs are standing their ground on this nerf for conceptual reasons, rather than play issues. If they said that the increased range was causing the build options to be narrowed because then sure, I am behind it. But that's not the reasoning presented.

 

The increased range of the early Tactical Arrow powers has become a feature and advantage of the set for the most important reason of all; the players have adopted the playstyle in game. If the devs are nerfing for conceptual balance reasons, and not listening to feedback, then they are making a mistake.

 

I cannot give this post enough likes.  Well said, and these lessons are vitally important to the wellbeing of a game and its community.

[Heraclea]

15 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

The other issue related to these changes is just the flat-out EXPENSE to the player in the form of needing a Respec (because when this goes live, if you had Gymnastics you'll now find yourself with Oil Slick Arrow slotted with Luck of the Gambler), 15 Enhancement Boosters (for the Range IOs) and to buy a Stun set to replace the Hold set that is currently in ESD Arrow and possibly some new Targeted AoE sets for Fistful of Arrows and Explosive Arrow due to the +range set bonuses actually making the primary problem of the range reduction (mismatched ranges) worse rather than better.

I noted this same problem, where I have the taunt aura 'Dynamo' slotted with Sudden Acceleration, where it does diddly squat.  The cottage rule was there for a reason.  I specifically avoided taking the PBAoE damage aura on my /Electric blaster.  And now that's supposed to be the sustain power in the set? 

 

I was ready to lose the Titan Weapons scrapper when this hit.  I did not anticipate losing that character. 

[UltraAlt]

I made the following - with related comments

 

Beam Rifle/Time - [reposting in correct forum]

Part of the Temporal healing description says "  If you are affected by the Accelerated effect, you absorb even more damage from this power."

From what I can tell. "Accelerated effect" refers to Chronos which says " While this is in effect, the target has any healing and healing over time effects from Temporal Healing or Lord of Time significantly increased. Recharge: Long"

So I think the description for Temporal Healing would make more sense if it read " If you are affected by Chronos, you absorb even more damage from this power."

But maybe there is some other power that has this "Accelerated effect" as well.

 

Similarly; End of Time says " Targets affected by the Delayed effect will suffer bonus damage." and Time Stop says "  Targets affected by the Delayed effect will suffer from a more powerful hold, however its benefits are brief." 

Time Wall states " Time Wall applies the Delayed effect on its target."

So I think the first 2 powers mentioned would read better as - 

End of Time - " Targets affected by Time Wall will suffer bonus damage."

Time Stop - "Targets affected by Time Wall will suffer from a more powerful hold, however its benefits are brief." 

Couldn't tell if End of Time was doing anything, but I eventually was able to make out the animation. A bit hard for me to  pick out as I was working with a time controller or what not.

 

Archer/Ninja

This is fun, but it makes me want to take stealth and than respec out of it once I level high enough to get shinobi. Shinobi is the magic preset trick. Surprise! Seemed to take more damage from exploding zombies than the other two new secondaries. Nice to feel like a sneaky blaster without needing to have stealth.

 

Water/Plant

I don't so much like the spines animation for this, but I understand it is there. I would have figured this would have looked more nature controller like than spine scrapper/tanker. I can the melee part would have the spine animation, but the immobilize and holds I think would look better with just a caste pose (throw arm in the direction of the enemy or the sowing-seeds throw) and the plant animation for the actual immobilize/hold animation on the enemy.

 

For the most part, all standardized blaster secondaries. Single target hold and immobilize as a base with flavor powers thrown in.

 

Time seems to be the strongest, but I was slotted with IO sets because I had to rush to level to 30 since I couldn't find Agent Walkins in Steel and had to go to the Oro to pull it and had to be at least level 25 for that (no half-stepping 20 or 30 only options!). The other two I slotted with SO's only for Agent Watkins arc testing.

[Super Homer]

1 hour ago, Heraclea said:

I noted this same problem, where I have the taunt aura 'Dynamo' slotted with Sudden Acceleration, where it does diddly squat.  The cottage rule was there for a reason.  I specifically avoided taking the PBAoE damage aura on my /Electric blaster.  And now that's supposed to be the sustain power in the set? 

Historically, powers have changed, even with the cottage rule in place. When that happens, though, everyone tends to get free respects. It should be expected that any game of this kind with active development will force players to respec every so often, when patches hit. 

 

If a power gets changed like this, I think devs should ask themselves: what is most desired by someone that took Power X (in this case, Force of Thunder)

Did most players take it because it was a Knockback power?

Or did most players take it because it was a sustain?

 

It's just my guess, but I would think most players took it for sustain. So, let everyone keep the new sustain on its place, and give free respecs.

 

 

34 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

But maybe there is some other power that has this "Accelerated effect" as well.

 

I forget the powers, but Defender's Time Manipulation has powers that will grant allies the Accelerated effect. The same with Delayed, Time Manipulation defenders can apply Delayed via some of their debuffs.

Edited October 28, 2020 by Super Homer

[UltraAlt]

43 minutes ago, Super Homer said:

I forget the powers, but Defender's Time Manipulation has powers that will grant allies the Accelerated effect. The same with Delayed, Time Manipulation defenders can apply Delayed via some of their debuffs.

I was talking about specifically within the new blaster secondary Time power options.

[CaptainLupis]

26 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

I was talking about specifically within the new blaster secondary Time power options.

Yes, but if you are getting the buffs from a different time power from a Defender/troller/MM do you still get the bonus and not just from your own power?

[Heraclea]

2 hours ago, Super Homer said:

It's just my guess, but I would think most players took it for sustain. So, let everyone keep the new sustain on its place, and give free respecs.

I took it for both.  It is a sustain, yes.  It also currently has knockback, which I slotted to change to knockdown and use all three in connection with fairly solid stealth.  I zip into spawns, knock them down, drain their endurance, and then get out of reach to rain down death. 

 

My severe problem with the change is that now the sustain power of the set is a damage/taunt aura that breaks stealth and aggroes everything in range of it.  The piddly damage of the aura requires you to be so close that the mobs can beat on you,  You are forced to choose between having sustain and having stealth.  I specifically chose not to take the damage aura from the set.  Now I am forced to if I want to have a sustain power. 

 

This just breaks the character past repair. 

[Vanden]

7 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

But 50 feet IS Perception range for an even level mob (and its further for higher level ones), so with a 50 foot range you have to aggro the enemy before you can use the electro-net arrow on them.

 

That’s not tactical at all (tactical would be immobilizing a melee enemy as your opener to reduce the number of mobs who can attack you at once.

...Unless you use Flash Arrow to reduce their perception first, which we've covered before. That sounds even more Tactical to me.

[sessa2]

I'm sure this are busy times  for Captain Powerhouse,but I wonder if he had any additional thoughts on the gymnastic changes to TA?

 

[Captain Powerhouse]

34 minutes ago, noobus said:

I'm sure this are busy times  for Captain Powerhouse,but I wonder if he had any additional thoughts on the gymnastic changes to TA?

 

Old [current live] gymnastic was literally a merger of Combat Jump and Acrobatics, it was a copy and paste job. As such, it should had always been exclusive from other jump powers, for one. The second issue there is that it resulted in the set getting innate immob and knock-back protection. One of the goals with the revamps, if someone has noticed (it has not been stated explicitly) is to give some form of protection to one type of mez. In other words: TA ended with 2, another problem.

 

The merger had one of the protections removed due for balance and the movement removed so it would be allowed to keep working with Combat Jump or Super Jump active.

 

If an overwhelming majority (not just more than half) of people are fine with Gymnastics becoming exclusive from other jump powers, the movement buffs can be restored into it.

[Moka]

[Blackbird71]

4 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

 

Old [current live] gymnastic was literally a merger of Combat Jump and Acrobatics, it was a copy and paste job. As such, it should had always been exclusive from other jump powers, for one. The second issue there is that it resulted in the set getting innate immob and knock-back protection. One of the goals with the revamps, if someone has noticed (it has not been stated explicitly) is to give some form of protection to one type of mez. In other words: TA ended with 2, another problem.

 

The merger had one of the protections removed due for balance and the movement removed so it would be allowed to keep working with Combat Jump or Super Jump active.

 

If an overwhelming majority (not just more than half) of people are fine with Gymnastics becoming exclusive from other jump powers, the movement buffs can be restored into it.

Here's an idea.  I don' t know how possible or difficult it would be, but how about putting the movement buffs back in Gymnastics (so that it actually feels like "gymnastics"), don't make it exclusive from other jump powers, but also don't make the buff stack with other jump powers.  So you could activate both Gymnastics and Combat Jumping at the same time, but you wouldn't have any better movement than just turning on one or the other.  That would let the power retain it's flavor without conflicting with others.