Focused Feedback: Travel Updates: Base Teleportation, Long Range Teleporter Accolade, Special TP Powers

[Blackbird71]

18 hours ago, Faultline said:

Ouroboros Portal is intended to be the easiest (and therefore most limited) 0-cost travel hub. Get it at level 1, as easy as someone dropping a portal for you to go through, but you only get a limited number of destinations (though it includes hubs on both sides: Talos and Cap, which is why the Ouro exit to Cap was moved).

So we're completely throwing out the idea of encountering Ouroboros organically through exposure to time travel in the course of gameplay now, and making it the primary way for brand new characters to get around?

[GadgetDon]

27 minutes ago, Blackbird71 said:

So we're completely throwing out the idea of encountering Ouroboros organically through exposure to time travel in the course of gameplay now, and making it the primary way for brand new characters to get around?

I'll miss the back door for getting into Ouroboros. Hmmm... will the portal last long enough that I can drop it, change characters, and go through?

[Vanden]

28 minutes ago, Blackbird71 said:

So we're completely throwing out the idea of encountering Ouroboros organically through exposure to time travel in the course of gameplay now, and making it the primary way for brand new characters to get around?

You really can't help yourself when it comes to twisting the devs' words, huh?

[Faultline]

29 minutes ago, Blackbird71 said:

So we're completely throwing out the idea of encountering Ouroboros organically through exposure to time travel in the course of gameplay now, and making it the primary way for brand new characters to get around?

The Ouroboros Portal is obtained for being exposed to time travel. "Organically" has never been a requirement. Every single way to obtain the Ouroboros Portal (documented in the patch notes) requires you to be exposed to time travel during gameplay. You keep trying to force a contradiction that isn't there, and honestly, I don't know what you're trying to accomplish here.

[Wavicle]

I care a lot less about Ouro being given out before encountering time travel "organically" and a lot more about the fact that the Pilgrim (and similarly, though less important, the Invention Tutorial folks at the Uni, is there anyone else I'm not thinking of? A Shadow Shard introduction?) doesn't introduce himself to you at the appropriate level to do his content.

[Faultline]

1 minute ago, Wavicle said:

I care a lot less about Ouro being given out before encountering time travel "organically" and a lot more about the fact that the Pilgrim (and similarly, though less important, the Invention Tutorial folks at the Uni, is there anyone else I'm not thinking of? A Shadow Shard introduction?) doesn't introduce himself to you at the appropriate level to do his content.

You may want to start a new thread for that, I'm not sure what kind of introduction you're talking about but it's off-topic for the thread.

[ivanhedgehog]

2 hours ago, thunderforce said:

They do, because if they run TFs they have merits and a really regular topic in in-game help is how to turn your merits into cash. (To anticipate your next reply, the hypothetical player here was running a Shards TF, remember?)

 

And as Jimmy points out, right now you have _no_ ability to use beacons into the Shards. If even one person on the team has the power, you get more post-patch than you have now.

They will most likely be using those merits to build the character, they dont have a supply stashed away. and they dont get the merits until AFTER they do the SS tf.  New players barely have money for so's. Even if they are torching their merits for cash, they wont have nearly enough to blow it all on 1 10 million travel power that you have to wait 10 min for it to be ready again.

[arthurh35353]

Huh, I just realized that the Vanguard doesn't have a portal or access to First Ward, even though they should because of the fact that they would want to watch over the Praetorian Earth. It's like, oh, they invaded but we're going to get back to ignoring them to deal with Rikti.

[thunderforce]

3 hours ago, ivanhedgehog said:

They will most likely be using those merits to build the character, they dont have a supply stashed away. and they dont get the merits until AFTER they do the SS tf.  New players barely have money for so's. Even if they are torching their merits for cash, they wont have nearly enough to blow it all on 1 10 million travel power that you have to wait 10 min for it to be ready again.

Except they got the merits for any other TFs they did. 10 million is just not a lot at those kinds of levels - it's the price of one Brute ATO, say.

 

You don't seem to have addressed the point that if anyone at all on the team has the power, you are already better off on a Shards TF post-patch than you are now. Please do so.

[Vanden]

Question about the implementation of LRTP: Since the change from "zone accolades to get destinations" to "zone accolade to unlock LRTP, and any badge to get destinations," using /badgegrant to get zone accolades will give you LRTP, but you won't actually have any destinations unlocked. This won't actually affect anything on the live servers, naturally, but what about the Pocket D VIP Gold Club Member badge? It unlocks LRTP, but does it also unlock Pocket D as a destination?

[Wavicle]

1 minute ago, Vanden said:

Question about the implementation of LRTP: Since the change from "zone accolades to get destinations" to "zone accolade to unlock LRTP, and any badge to get destinations," using /badgegrant to get zone accolades will give you LRTP, but you won't actually have any destinations unlocked. This won't actually affect anything on the live servers, naturally, but what about the Pocket D VIP Gold Club Member badge? It unlocks LRTP, but does it also unlock Pocket D as a destination?

Pretty sure it did when I tried it out...

[ivanhedgehog]

1 hour ago, thunderforce said:

Except they got the merits for any other TFs they did. 10 million is just not a lot at those kinds of levels - it's the price of one Brute ATO, say.

 

You don't seem to have addressed the point that if anyone at all on the team has the power, you are already better off on a Shards TF post-patch than you are now. Please do so.

the ss tfs are a small small part of travel. No idea why you are fixated on this. New players dont have the inf to both build a character and blow all their money on a 10 million inf sink. they run their tfs at levels much lower than 50, where they arent getting the cash you seem to think is available. The devs are taking away a travel system and replacing it with a complicated mess. They have been given suggestions as to how to make it simple and easy, but they seem to have an agenda that precludes this. If it was just to get rid of the / command and the exploit it would be simple. Looks like it isnt just about those

[thunderforce]

3 minutes ago, ivanhedgehog said:

the ss tfs are a small small part of travel. No idea why you are fixated on this. New players dont have the inf to both build a character and blow all their money on a 10 million inf sink. they run their tfs at levels much lower than 50, where they arent getting the cash you seem to think is available. The devs are taking away a travel system and replacing it with a complicated mess. They have been given suggestions as to how to make it simple and easy, but they seem to have an agenda that precludes this. If it was just to get rid of the / command and the exploit it would be simple. Looks like it isnt just about those

If you have no idea why I am so "fixated" on that, perhaps you should try reading the earlier posts in this thread; it will then become clear that I was responding to someone asking about them specifically. It is usually useful to read what you are replying to before replying.

 

I'd be all in favour of just getting rid of the exploit and adding nothing in return, which would indeed be simple, but I thought you were upset about travel getting harder.

[Wavicle]

14 minutes ago, ivanhedgehog said:

The devs are taking away a travel system and replacing it with a complicated mess.

This is the opposite of true.

[ivanhedgehog]

15 minutes ago, thunderforce said:

If you have no idea why I am so "fixated" on that, perhaps you should try reading the earlier posts in this thread; it will then become clear that I was responding to someone asking about them specifically. It is usually useful to read what you are replying to before replying.

 

I'd be all in favour of just getting rid of the exploit and adding nothing in return, which would indeed be simple, but I thought you were upset about travel getting harder.

you might want to read...what is the effect on new players? you didnt read what you were replying too. Are the devs improving the game or just "fixing" the things they dont like?

[Blackbird71]

7 hours ago, Faultline said:

The Ouroboros Portal is obtained for being exposed to time travel. "Organically" has never been a requirement. Every single way to obtain the Ouroboros Portal (documented in the patch notes) requires you to be exposed to time travel during gameplay. You keep trying to force a contradiction that isn't there, and honestly, I don't know what you're trying to accomplish here.

I enjoy the content of the game, and would prefer to see the flavor and lore of that content preserved.  Within the context of the game, Ouroboros makes much more sense as a unique place, a sanctum for time travelers, which would be unlocked through playing certain content which provides for encounters with time travel.  The idea that anyone can get access to the Ouro portal just by getting someone else to open a portal for them has never sat well with me, but at least with the level requirement there was opportunity and likelihood that characters could run content that would gain them access to Ouro before getting a port there.  Sure, many would not, but there was more of an opportunity to discover it through gameplay.  And when other travel options were available, there was not as much pressure to obtain the Ouro portal this way.  Players who wanted to wait and gain the portal organically through content could do so without disadvantaging themselves in terms of travel options.

But by making Ouro portals available at level 1, and by design making it the "easiest 0-cost travel hub," you are ensuring that players will pick it up as soon as possible. Even those who would prefer to wait and gain the power through playing content will be pressured to pick it up early as they will have no other affordable options.  By making Ouro the intended low-level travel, you are actively discouraging people from playing content.  I don't mind having choices for people who do not wish to play through the content normally, but the existence of those choices should not work against those who do prefer to play content.

In short; don't disincentivize those who like to play the content of the game by making things more convenient to not do so.

[CrudeVileTerror]

This was touched upon earlier in the thread, @Blackbird71, but the Devs have stated that the narrative reasoning behind this change (which is perhaps more of a flimsy justification, depending on your point of view) is that Mender Silos is opening recruitment of heroes at a speedier pace since the cat's out of the bag as far as trying to keep Ouroboros secret from the Midnighter's and the Dream Doctor.

 

So, really, perhaps the focus should be on making sure that there is some Level 1 Content in Ouroboros now, so that those new inductees have something to do there other than just use it as a teleport hub.

I know I would be VERY cool with there being less level-gated stuff in Ouroboros!

[Faultline]

@Blackbird71 I see your point now, and I disagree. LRT takes a couple of minutes to get and it's a lot more flexible than Ouroboros as a travel hub, and that is the option that is being encouraged the most, which is why it's hinted in the Passport badge right after character creation. However, since there are some players who say that getting an exploration accolade or waiting an hour in Pocket D is too much to ask for a basic travel hub, I pointed out that the Ouroboros portal has no such requirements. It is also more limited, by design, due to its ease of access. The Ouroboros portal exists, and so it has to be considered when balancing the various options that players have access to.

 

Another way that we encourage LRT over Ouroboros is by having LRT validate /ebfc as a valid destination. Contrary to public perception, we want to keep player made bases as travel hubs which you can access easily; as soon as you unlock LRT with any zone, you can use a player made base to go anywhere else.

[Faultline]

11 hours ago, ivanhedgehog said:

New players dont have the inf to both build a character and blow all their money on a 10 million inf sink.

New players can obtain LRT by picking up a few exploration badges, or Monitor Duty/Rapid Response by logging off at a SG base portal. You keep trying to push the most expensive option as the only one, which isn't true.

 

11 hours ago, ivanhedgehog said:

The devs are taking away a travel system and replacing it with a complicated mess.

The slash command is not a "travel system" any more than /kill is a "combat power". Your baseline is an instant teleport command intended for GM use, and you're shooting down anything with any sane balance as too complex or expensive. Your feedback has been noted, every single time, but since you keep relying on misinformation (like bringing up P2W Portal as the only viable option and using its cost and cooldown time as negatives that apply to the whole system), it is just not useful.

[Luminara]

20 hours ago, ivanhedgehog said:

They will most likely be using those merits to build the character, they dont have a supply stashed away. and they dont get the merits until AFTER they do the SS tf.  New players barely have money for so's. Even if they are torching their merits for cash, they wont have nearly enough to blow it all on 1 10 million travel power that you have to wait 10 min for it to be ready again.

 

New players also won't have several dozen or hundred characters, and since they're new, they won't have the sense of ennui toward exploration badges that comes from having played for years, nor a feeling of not having the time to collect them for all of their characters.  If anything, being new, they're going to pursue those exploration badges like slavering saltwater crocs at a migration ford, eager to sink every 5 merit bonus into their IHASAFIDDY fund.

 

And you know what else they won't have?  A reason to complain about not having a slash command to instantly warp to their base, specifically because they're new and won't have ever used it, or even know it existed unless someone mentions it.  They'll have the free zone/base/hub teleporter, and quite satisfied with that, they're definitely not going to storm the forums or quit the game because it's not /enterbasefrompasscode.

 

15 hours ago, ivanhedgehog said:

New players dont have the inf to both build a character and blow all their money on a 10 million inf sink.

 

Then these changes are extremely positive for new players, since it gives them free teleportation to explored zones, bases, social areas and transportation hubs in addition to the merits they'll be saving.  They have their fast travel options, they feel even more rewarded and incentivized when they find exploration badges, and they're saving merits and inf* they otherwise might have spent on an over-priced P2W luxury.  Oh, and they won't have to worry about a dangerously exploitable command, which someone could use to seriously mess up their day, being left active.  That sounds like a win all around for new players.

[Wavicle]

6 hours ago, Faultline said:

 However, since there are some players who say that getting an exploration accolade or waiting an hour in Pocket D is too much to ask for a basic travel hub, I pointed out that the Ouroboros portal has no such requirements. It is also more limited, by design, due to its ease of access

Just to be absolutely clear, I DON'T think it's too much to ask.

I just think it would be nice to help people with dozens or even HUNDREDS of alts.

[JelloMold]

37 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

I just think it would be nice to help people with dozens or even HUNDREDS of alts.

I see this a lot and always wonder the same thing: If one is willing, nay, eager to invest the time and effort and inf to level up and build out between 200 and 999 (plural hundreds) characters in the time we’ve had access to the GM teleportation exploit, is it really that much more to ask that player to - minimal effort option - log out next to a base portal to recreate the exploit for free? This player cannot have any qualms about sinking hundreds of hours into the game or they would not have created and leveled and built out between 200 and 999 alts, so we know the issue isn’t time constraints. The issue can’t be tied to the new Long Range Teleporter unless this player has the existing pool power on a significant portion of the 200 to 999 characters they regularly play. In that case, I sympathize with having to respec up to 999 characters in addition to re-acquiring the power and its existing live destinations to maintain the gameplay they are accustomed to. Otherwise the addition of a free, optional QOL feature that doesn’t exist in the (also free) live game has no impact on that player. If the feature is not worth the comparatively negligible time investment (compared to creating, leveling, and slotting out 200 to 999 characters), then that player just won’t pick it up on some or all of their characters. It’s no great loss to them because of all these other brand new, even easier to obtain quick travel options. Overall, the player with 200 to 999 alts comes out ahead either way.

[Wavicle]

2 minutes ago, JelloMold said:

I see this a lot and always wonder the same thing: If one is willing, nay, eager to invest the time and effort and inf to level up and build out between 200 and 999 (plural hundreds) characters in the time we’ve had access to the GM teleportation exploit, is it really that much more to ask that player to - minimal effort option - log out next to a base portal to recreate the exploit for free? This player cannot have any qualms about sinking hundreds of hours into the game or they would not have created and leveled and built out between 200 and 999 alts, so we know the issue isn’t time constraints. The issue can’t be tied to the new Long Range Teleporter unless this player has the existing pool power on a significant portion of the 200 to 999 characters they regularly play. In that case, I sympathize with having to respec up to 999 characters in addition to re-acquiring the power and its existing live destinations to maintain the gameplay they are accustomed to. Otherwise the addition of a free, optional QOL feature that doesn’t exist in the (also free) live game has no impact on that player. If the feature is not worth the comparatively negligible time investment (compared to creating, leveling, and slotting out 200 to 999 characters), then that player just won’t pick it up on some or all of their characters. It’s no great loss to them because of all these other brand new, even easier to obtain quick travel options. Overall, the player with 200 to 999 alts comes out ahead either way.

I get what you're saying, and you're not wrong. I probably will just gradually move most of characters to Pocket D and log out there, problem solved.

However, I don't think I understand some of what you've said here.

Does logging out by the base portal unlock the LRTP? I'm not aware of that.

I'm also not sure what you were saying about Respeccing...is that regarding the Teleport pool?

[ivanhedgehog]

16 hours ago, Blackbird71 said:

I enjoy the content of the game, and would prefer to see the flavor and lore of that content preserved.  Within the context of the game, Ouroboros makes much more sense as a unique place, a sanctum for time travelers, which would be unlocked through playing certain content which provides for encounters with time travel.  The idea that anyone can get access to the Ouro portal just by getting someone else to open a portal for them has never sat well with me, but at least with the level requirement there was opportunity and likelihood that characters could run content that would gain them access to Ouro before getting a port there.  Sure, many would not, but there was more of an opportunity to discover it through gameplay.  And when other travel options were available, there was not as much pressure to obtain the Ouro portal this way.  Players who wanted to wait and gain the portal organically through content could do so without disadvantaging themselves in terms of travel options.

But by making Ouro portals available at level 1, and by design making it the "easiest 0-cost travel hub," you are ensuring that players will pick it up as soon as possible. Even those who would prefer to wait and gain the power through playing content will be pressured to pick it up early as they will have no other affordable options.  By making Ouro the intended low-level travel, you are actively discouraging people from playing content.  I don't mind having choices for people who do not wish to play through the content normally, but the existence of those choices should not work against those who do prefer to play content.

In short; don't disincentivize those who like to play the content of the game by making things more convenient to not do so.

You can always choose to not get it from someone else, just do the arcs that give it. Problem solved. they arent taking anything away from anyone.

[Wavicle]

To be even clearer, I am very happy with the travel changes. If we have to sit in PD for an hour or take five minutes getting the Atlas explores on each toon, that's ok. That's worth 5 merits, after all.