Blasters why melee

[Nemu]

I just call it blasting. Why give a special term to a playstyle that is intended for the AT like it's an abnormal thing?

 

I hate the word "blapping" I'd rather call the rangers "sentineling"

Edited November 3, 2020 by Nemu

[beradical]

[S33k3r]

If a Blaster is a master of all damage, what is the point of a Scrapper -- what niche do they fill?

 

During the days of live I simply didn't play blasters. I'd play a Defender and then Corruptors once they became available. I also played Controllers and Dominators. But I truly hated being in melee, especially on a squishy archetype. So why do I have to be "incentivized" to play in melee? Why can't I just play at range? Why are the powers in the Blaster Archetype set up to force them into melee?

 

I have learned a lot about how to play the game since it has been back, and there are changes to it that have made some things very easy. I'm even enjoying melee archetypes. But if I want to melee, I'm going to use a melee archetype, and leave the face planting to others who want to play blasters in melee. Because it doesn't matter how much damage you are capable of, the bad guys don't care when all you can do is lie there and inspect the carpet/take a dirt nap.

[ivanhedgehog]

On 11/3/2020 at 12:47 PM, Apparition said:

It is mostly pre-conceived notions from live that “Blasters are squishy.”  That is no longer the case.

Unfortunately, all blasters arent 50 with a full load out of IO sets. Blasters ARE squishy, unless you build for defenses, which takes away a lot of your damage options.

[Tsuko]

Each time i saw this thread, i cannot stop thinking : Scrappers why mélée

[Greycat]

On 10/28/2020 at 2:22 PM, ivanhedgehog said:

could be why blasters die so much. 1 stun and bye bye.

... well, no. That's why you have your T1 and T2 blasts (and T1 from the ssecondary.) You can still fight while mezzed.   (Also used to - still sort of is - one of the reasons I liked Electric blast... Sparky doesn't care if you're mezzed.)

[UltraAlt]

On 10/27/2020 at 11:41 AM, Spectre7878 said:

I have come to love blasters. I use to always play dominators and controllers because well I am a control freak hehe. The one thing I never understood about blasters is their secondary power set and some of their T9 powers. A blaster in my opinion should always want to that range. They make no sense going in melee since we have very little defense until IO sets. That being said. I wish all blasters T9 powers were ranged. Secondary sets can be melee if need be but I personally don’t like getting in melee to do my nova power. Wish they could give us a choice or change T9. That’s just my wish

To me (always needless to say, but often necessary for clarity), the melee in blasters either the "keep away from me" or finisher power.

 

The game is built on teaming, so if you say have a tank taunting a large group, or a controller wormholing a bunch of bad guys (yeah, that's you villians) into a pile (which disorients them) or a control say sleeps all of them. Then you can walk, run, jump, teleport, or fall out of the sky into the group of enemies and let fly with a NOVA and immediately flee from the area.

 

Seems to work for me and I kinda don't think that I'm the only one.

[beradical]

I'm sure it varies for powersets. Both ranged and flying are awesome with cones, but my Fire/Fire does far more damage in melee due to it's 4 PBAoEs which are my money makers. That set would not perform well in flight or ranged.

 

He isn't that squishy once soft-capped, except for def debuff and the alpha strike that gets through defense and one-shots me, but honestly that happens on my def-based stalkers and all squishies. I've been running LRSF all week, and I can solo a tower, corner herd the longbow, and nuke them to high hell before they kill me. The only struggle is mez, which depends entirely on the powersets of the LB B/EBs, so it might require me to pop Clarion.

 

Honestly the hardest thing about my fire/fire blaster is that mobs run like I have never experienced before. None of my stalkers or scrappers seem to instill that same amount of fear as this guy, and that really sucks given the amount of PBAoE I do.

[Wompy]

On 11/4/2020 at 8:42 PM, S33k3r said:

If a Blaster is a master of all damage, what is the point of a Scrapper -- what niche do they fill?

 

Scrappers are for people who prefer to solo.

[Azera]

On 10/27/2020 at 11:59 AM, TygerDarkstorm said:

Was gonna say the same thing. Despite the misconception and the character creator labeling them as ranged, blasters are the masters of ALL damage, as Apparition said. Some of the strongest hitting blaster powers are their melee abilities. And it's fairly easy to build a blaster to be tough enough to survive in melee these days.

It is not a misconception that blasters were designed as ranged combatant. Page 7 of the official City of Heroes Game Manual states the following, "Blasters specialize in delivering massive damage at range. They have very little defensive potential, other than the ability to keep enemies at arm's length."  The description goes on, but it basically just states that blasters were meant to be play in groups so that other archetypes could keep them safe.

[Krazie Ivan]

18 hours ago, Azera said:

the official City of Heroes Game Manual states...

who reads manuals?!? 

lol, but really... can confirm; the best CoH players are far better at the game, and understanding the game, than any Dev would have imagined. we had a Dev within our Speedy TF group for YEARS back on Live.

[Doomguide2005]

23 hours ago, Azera said:

It is not a misconception that blasters were designed as ranged combatant. Page 7 of the official City of Heroes Game Manual states the following, "Blasters specialize in delivering massive damage at range. They have very little defensive potential, other than the ability to keep enemies at arm's length."  The description goes on, but it basically just states that blasters were meant to be play in groups so that other archetypes could keep them safe.

Perhaps (with emphasis) it was true, but the game has evolved and changed enormously since the manual was written.  Neither IOs, sets or Incarnates existed when the manual was written.  Much of it is also flavorfully written and blappers certainly existed in the early issues.  My first blaster went to 50 on SO's and spent plenty of her time in both melee (energy) and range (fire blast).  As she closed with a mob she used her ranged blasts, then finished the bosses and lts with her melee secondary.  All while vulnerable to mez.

[srmalloy]

23 hours ago, Doomguide2005 said:

Perhaps (with emphasis) it was true, but the game has evolved and changed enormously since the manual was written.  Neither IOs, sets or Incarnates existed when the manual was written. 

Nor was the change that gave essentially every mob in the game a ranged attack of they didn't already have one, that in many cases outranged a snipe with Range Boost, driving a stake through the heart of Jack Emmert's declaration "Range is a Blaster's defense".

[Azera]

23 hours ago, Doomguide2005 said:

Perhaps (with emphasis) it was true, but the game has evolved and changed enormously since the manual was written.  Neither IOs, sets or Incarnates existed when the manual was written.  Much of it is also flavorfully written and blappers certainly existed in the early issues.  My first blaster went to 50 on SO's and spent plenty of her time in both melee (energy) and range (fire blast).  As she closed with a mob she used her ranged blasts, then finished the bosses and lts with her melee secondary.  All while vulnerable to mez.

You can say “perhaps,” but you would be remiss. I provided evidence in a direct quote from the official guide which trumps your speculation on what the original developers intended.

As for the current state of the game, I agree it has changed significantly, but can you provide any documented evidence that any developer along the way, or even the current developers for Homecoming have change the intend of the Blaster being a ranged archetype? If you can, then I will respectfully concede the issue.

CoH has always had people who play blasters differently than intended. It is human nature to go against the grain. Some of our best scientific discovers have come from happy accidents and unintended reactions. However, I believe someone should provide evidence if they make the claim that another poster’s statement is inaccurate. 

[Azera]

48 minutes ago, srmalloy said:

... the heart of Jack Emmert's declaration ...

Oh, you said the name that should not be spoken 😊

 

[TygerDarkstorm]

1 hour ago, Azera said:

You can say “perhaps,” but you would be remiss. I provided evidence in a direct quote from the official guide which trumps your speculation on what the original developers intended.

As for the current state of the game, I agree it has changed significantly, but can you provide any documented evidence that any developer along the way, or even the current developers for Homecoming have change the intend of the Blaster being a ranged archetype? If you can, then I will respectfully concede the issue.

CoH has always had people who play blasters differently than intended. It is human nature to go against the grain. Some of our best scientific discovers have come from happy accidents and unintended reactions. However, I believe someone should provide evidence if they make the claim that another poster’s statement is inaccurate. 

I mean, I sort of did when I said that some of a blaster's hardest hitting attacks are their melee abilities.... I may not be as into the number crunching and such as some of the other forum users, but I made my initial post based on a lengthy amount of reading from those whose knowledge exceeds mine.

 

A blaster is intended to deal damage, period. Maybe they started off intended to be ranged primarily, but the game evolved past that point, and if you look at even the abilities in the primaries, a great many of them need you to be in melee range or close to it. The T9 nukes for example--they are now crashless and one of the strongest hitting powers blasters have; they are also PBAoE so you need to be in the middle of the mob to use them. Given how sturdy blasters can be built these days, there is very little reason for them not to blap when the time calls for it unless it's for character, thematic, and/or personal reasons.

 

What the game manual said in 2004 doesn't mean much to where the game was at when it shut down in 2012, and where it's at now in 2020. Both blasters and dominators should learn to feel comfortable jousting in and out of melee.

[Omega-202]

2 hours ago, Azera said:

You can say “perhaps,” but you would be remiss. I provided evidence in a direct quote from the official guide which trumps your speculation on what the original developers intended.

As for the current state of the game, I agree it has changed significantly, but can you provide any documented evidence that any developer along the way, or even the current developers for Homecoming have change the intend of the Blaster being a ranged archetype? If you can, then I will respectfully concede the issue.

CoH has always had people who play blasters differently than intended. It is human nature to go against the grain. Some of our best scientific discovers have come from happy accidents and unintended reactions. However, I believe someone should provide evidence if they make the claim that another poster’s statement is inaccurate. 

http://web.archive.org/web/20121025125321/http://na.cityofheroes.com/en/game_info/archetypes/hero_archetypes.php

 

The official description from the close of the game: "Whether up close or afar, he can deal out tremendous amounts of damage"

 

The original devs commented on this numerous times.  I'm looking for the archived posts around the Defiance revamp when Blasters got increased base HP.  I specifically recall them discussing how the increased HP should better allow Blasters to survive in melee and make use of their secondary, which old Defiance was not accomplishing.  

 

You're very wrong.  I'm not sure where your high-and-mighty attitude is coming from with this "prove it" stuff but I'd cool your jets.  You're way off base.

[Doomguide2005]

It was not my intent to argue what the original designers intended.  Clearly Blasters as an AT have many powers giving them the ability to stay at range far more than most 'melee' ATs, equally clearly they were given many powers which must be used at melee and PBAoE distance.  I don't think I'm going too far out in speculating they intended all those powers might be used by the player base in their builds.  Electric/Fire pairings were possible from issue 0.  Exactly 1 power in that secondary can be used at range and it's the tier 1.  I think regardless of what was written it's highly unlikely the Devs only intended for just that t1 to be used.

[Carnifax]

On 11/4/2020 at 8:42 PM, S33k3r said:

If a Blaster is a master of all damage, what is the point of a Scrapper -- what niche do they fill?

 

During the days of live I simply didn't play blasters. I'd play a Defender and then Corruptors once they became available. I also played Controllers and Dominators. But I truly hated being in melee, especially on a squishy archetype. So why do I have to be "incentivized" to play in melee? Why can't I just play at range? Why are the powers in the Blaster Archetype set up to force them into melee?

 

I have learned a lot about how to play the game since it has been back, and there are changes to it that have made some things very easy. I'm even enjoying melee archetypes. But if I want to melee, I'm going to use a melee archetype, and leave the face planting to others who want to play blasters in melee. Because it doesn't matter how much damage you are capable of, the bad guys don't care when all you can do is lie there and inspect the carpet/take a dirt nap.

My Scrapper acts like a self-contained melee damage source with a fair amount of crowd control in there to keep things around me while I eat my way through them (Ice / Ice / Mako). 

My Ice / Fire Blaster acts like a PBAOE Damage over Time machine who gets in close and melts everything around him. He doesn't die much at all. 

My Water / Time Blaster is a pure ranged which very quickly removes the "chaffe" mobs and is kind of what Sentinels wish they were.

 

None of these things are right or wrong, but they're all immense fun (actually that probably means they're all right). All 3 are IOd out, but not to a "All winters and purples sets" level and all 3 do quite well in most content. If my Ice/Fire is really struggling surviving in melee because the team make-up + opposition means I'm eating a lot of -Def and then a lot of attacks I'll tend to just switch to a more ranged approach, only running in once the spawn has been thinned a bit with my ranged attacks (or the evil debuffing boss is on ice so I can move in to finish them off).

[Krazie Ivan]

11 hours ago, Azera said:

I provided evidence in a direct quote from the official guide which trumps your speculation on what the original developers intended.

weeeeell, you could both be right... product materials are typically handled by different people than those who envision or have a hand in creation. i'd say the same for whoever coded the char creation verbiage. there's plenty of room for miscommunication. marketing teams are notorious for completely misrepresenting a product, for example. just wouldn't be 100% sure of intent based anything that wasn't stated directly by the core group of Devs.

[Doomguide2005]

5 hours ago, Krazie Ivan said:

weeeeell, you could both be right... product materials are typically handled by different people than those who envision or have a hand in creation. i'd say the same for whoever coded the char creation verbiage. there's plenty of room for miscommunication. marketing teams are notorious for completely misrepresenting a product, for example. just wouldn't be 100% sure of intent based anything that wasn't stated directly by the core group of Devs.

Absolutely, I just didn't go into it.  For one it doesn't really address either the current state of the game or the OP's question.  Whether intended or not some folks play them in melee and 'blap' and some pairings would be, in my opinion, far less effective staying always at range ... the Electric/Fire I mentioned above, for example.

 

Edit:  Not to derail the subject entirely but it's shares similarities with the 'Healer' 'Offender' dichotomy often popping up in the Defender forums specifically around Empaths/Empathy.  Sets get used all the time in ways the Devs might not have intended or predicted.  It's part of the beauty of this game.

Edited November 10, 2020 by Doomguide2005

[Doomrider]

I play my blasters for what they are. Damage obsessed inspiration addicts with lots of options.

To me, ranged or melee matters not. If I want to go more ranged centric, I focus on my primary, using my secondary more so for utility purposes along with my PPP/APP picks.

Even if I play more ranged centric I try to stay within that 25-35' range from enemies so I can still receive pbaoe buffs from teammates. 

[Nemu]

5 hours ago, Doomguide2005 said:

Not to derail the subject entirely but it's shares similarities with the 'Healer' 'Offender' dichotomy often popping up in the Defender forums specifically around Empaths/Empathy.

The thing that grinds my gears is that the one unslotted attack empath approach has largely been voted off the island, same with the one attack tank taunt bot. You go onto those respective forums and start talking about being pure and you'll get a barrage of "this is not how you play this game." Take your secondaries, slot them, that's how you are really supposed to play those ATs.

 

Blasters is the only AT left where secondary neglect is tolerated and based on more than a few voices here, even encouraged. And I am certain some of those same voices are quick to jump on the "take and use your secondary" bandwagon when it comes to defenders and tanks.

[Azera]

On 11/9/2020 at 10:03 PM, Omega-202 said:

http://web.archive.org/web/20121025125321/http://na.cityofheroes.com/en/game_info/archetypes/hero_archetypes.php

 

The official description from the close of the game: "Whether up close or afar, he can deal out tremendous amounts of damage"

 

The original devs commented on this numerous times.  I'm looking for the archived posts around the Defiance revamp when Blasters got increased base HP.  I specifically recall them discussing how the increased HP should better allow Blasters to survive in melee and make use of their secondary, which old Defiance was not accomplishing.  

 

You're very wrong.  I'm not sure where your high-and-mighty attitude is coming from with this "prove it" stuff but I'd cool your jets.  You're way off base.

So … you definitely misinterpreted the intent of my post. And why is it “high and mighty” to ask for proof? I posted prove of the intended original design and that someone was not misguided for thinking the blaster was a ranged class, and doomguide indicated I was wrong.

Your own link proves I’m not wrong. Granted, you either overlooked or conveniently left out the part of your link that states: “Primary Power Category – Ranged”

Anyway, you appear to be the arrogant one for starting in on me. Especially when people are calling others misguided or adding “with emphasis.” Maybe they’re friends of yours, but whatever the case you really should be the one to cool your jets 😊

On a serious note, I not sure why you all think I’m trying to indicate the blaster can’t be played as something other than a ranged combatant. That’s not what I’m saying. I agreed with doomguide that the game has changed greatly. In addition, the advancements with enhancement has made it so blasters can solo competently and engage in melee combat. However, a new player who thinks they’re going to role up a blaster and go melee groups of +0/+8 mobs without learning about IO's is going to be in for a world of disappointment.

Anyway, it is not my intent to engage in a war with anyone on the forums. If my posts are being determined to be arrogant, then I’ll stop posting on this thread, and we’ll just have to agree to disagree. I just don’t think someone should be labeled misguided for calling a frog an amphibian.

[Doomguide2005]

@AzeraMy apologies if my wording came off as overly aggressive and I certainly didn't intend to instigate a forum war with either with you or anyone else.