Super Strength

[Ultimo]

I don't like the Super Strength set... it just doesn't seem very STRONG.  Now, I'm not referring to damage, I'm saying it does very little that requires STRENGTH.  Sure we can punch things, but anyone can punch things.  Sure, the punches can knock down, even knock back things... but LOTS of heroes without superhuman strength can do that.  The problem is there's very little in the set that shows off great STRENGTH.

Think about what we see super strong characters doing in the comics, films and so on.  They lift heavy objects, stop runaway trains, break chains and smash through walls.  Their battles are titanic, doing massive collateral damage to their surroundings, knocking their foes vast distances.  The Super Strength set does very little of this.  We get one heavy object to lift as part of Hurl, but even that is small compared to the boulder from Stone Melee or some of the objects Propel conjures up.  Still, it's better than nothing.  Hand Clap does look strong, but even that is hampered by the fact that it does no damage at all, and the stun it causes is very short.  Finally we get Foot Stomp which does look and feel pretty strong... but it's really the only thing that does.

 

To see how Super Strength should work, watch the Justice League Unlimited episode entitled "Clash," where Superman and Captain Marvel fight one another.  They exchange punches, but doing so shatters windows and cracks the ground and walls around them, and each blow sends the target flying, often right through walls.  They grab large objects, like a bus or a whole bank vault, and the smack each other with them.  Or... watch this AWESOME video... 

 

 

Of course, the game engine doesn't allow us to interact with the environment, so we can't lift up cars or hit each other with trees or streetsigns.  However, there has to be more we could do with the set to let it at least LOOK like the character possesses great strength.  I envision three changes, ranging from the merely cosmetic to actually changing gameplay.

 

First the easy one, there should be more environmental effects; cracks on the ground and walls, debris flying around, dust and rubble.  It's simple and merely cosmetic, but would go a LONG way to improving the presentation of the set.

 

Second, all knockback in the game should be changed to knockDOWN.  Using a knockback enhancer would then convert knockdown to knockBACK.  Further, knockback enhancers should also increase damage the way damage enhancers do (so you could use either for the same effect, the only difference being that knockback enhancers would add knockback).  Since knockback is often seen as undesirable, something needs to be done to MAKE it desirable.  Making knockback do a bit of additional damage, relative to the amount of knockback done (even if something stops them, like a wall, or if they're immune), would do this.  These changes would allow people who don't WANT knockback to slot damage enhancers and leave it as knockdown, while those that do want knockback can have it and get a minor benefit from it.
With knockback thus altered, all Super Strength attacks should do significant knockback when enhanced, in keeping with what's in the comics.

 

Third, Super Strength attacks should do MUCH more damage to inanimate objects, like doors or vehicles.  We see this in the media all the time, doors and walls being easily crushed or broken, vehicles smashed and tossed around.  We don't want to take it TOO far, but super strong characters should be better at this than others.  This might include semi-animate things, such as Clockwork, Pumicites and other animated creatures.

 

Fourth, the set itself should be revamped.  Many of the current powers are either useless, do nothing to denote strength, or both.  The goal would be to reduce the number of punching powers and add more strength feats, including more AOE.  Consider that a normal strength hero will usually hit one enemy at a time, but a superhumanly strong one might sweep several foes away at once.  I'd set it up something like this...

Punch - A basic single target punch, it should be more or less like the current Punch power.  Animation either one or two hand smash.
Haymaker - A basic AOE cone punch, it should function like Cross Punch.
Hurl - The only lifting power in the set, it needs to come earlier.  It should be the same as it is now, EXCEPT it should be an AOE.  It's a big rock, after all.
Taunt - As it is now, but a better animation?
Rage - As it is now, but a different name?  Perhaps as a toggle, that increases endurance costs as well?
Hand Clap - As it is now, but in addition targets in a forward cone take moderate damage.
Smash - This replaces KO Blow, does titanic damage and a LOT of knockback to the target, knocks down nearby foes.  LONG recharge.
Shockwave - Foot Stomp renamed.

 

Super Strength is the single most common superhuman power in comic books... even in ancient mythology.  It's ICONIC, and needs to be done right.  It needs to be highly desirable and effective.  I think the adjustments I've outlined above are fairly balanced, but some tweaking might be necessary.  I think the idea is clear, though.

 

 

Here's the scene from Clash, because it is also awesome...

 

 

Edited October 29, 2020 by Ultimo
Added a video

[Monos King]

3 hours ago, Ultimo said:

Third, Super Strength attacks should do MUCH more damage to inanimate objects, like doors or vehicles.  We see this in the media all the time, doors and walls being easily crushed or broken, vehicles smashed and tossed around.

Seen this suggestion before, would still love to see it.

[Outrider_01]

I get the fact that your suggestion would be a reverse idea of every other complaint about KB, that powers all star as knockdown and enhancements turn them into KB.  Best suggestion anyone ever put form was a P2W power that affected all the powers for a temp KB->KD; so that it can be temporary without people bitching, complaining, and booting others with others "Well, its compromising my build" yet the majority of powers have the best bonus on slot 5, not 6 and you can 4 slot normal enhancements effects (+DMG, ACC, Heal) with the 5th as a proc; then a KB->KD in the 6

 

Just avoid KB powersets and don't group, solves the problem for everyone.

Edited October 28, 2020 by Outrider_01

[Ultimo]

1 minute ago, Outrider_01 said:

Watch your video carefully, reread the entirety of your post about "interact" or what ever effect for whump factor, and the fact that if you expect Superman to wallop Marvel so that he just flops on his back instead of flying backwards several blocks; kind of a "lets do this, BUT NO IT CAN'T DO THAT" the way you are saying things.

 

 cleverly hidden KB post, just avoid the powersets for your characters and avoid grouping.  Problem solved.

 

I get the fact that your suggestion would be a reverse idea of every other complaint about KB, that powers all star as knockdown and enhancements turn them into KB.  Best suggestion anyone ever put form was a P2W power that affected all the powers for a temp KB->KD; so that it can be temporary without people bitching, complaining, and booting others with others "Well, its compromising my build" yet the majority of powers have the best bonus on slot 5, not 6 and you can 4 slot normal enhancements effects (+DMG, ACC, Heal) with the 5th as a proc; then a KB->KD in the 6

I'm not sure quite what you're saying there... I think you're not quite getting what I mean for knockback?

 

Essentially, a lot of people don't like it, because it knocks foes out of aoe range/melee range.  For this reason, people don't really WANT knockback, and favour knockdown powers instead.  However, there are some people (like me) who like knockback because it's more in character for the power set, as we see super strength regularly knocking foes around a lot.  So, I was hoping to provide a mechanism to allow everyone to have what they want.

 

By changing all knockback in the game into knockdown, people who don't want knockback can have it the way they like.  Making knockback enhancers change the knockdown to knockback allows people who DO want knockback to have it.

 

However, this does put people using knockback enhancers at something of a disadvantage.  First, the knockback enhancers are taking up slots that would have been used by other kinds of enhancers.  So, I suggested they also boost damage the way damage enhancers do, so that they can be slotted without hindering damage output.  Second, critics of knockback are correct, knocking foes away can be very inconvenient, especially for melee characters.  So, to compensate for this, I thought it appropriate to add a little damage to knockback.  So, for example, one character using damage enhancers would do say... 50 damage with a punch that knocks his foe down.  If he used knockback enhancers, he would do 50 damage, plus perhaps 10 more when the foe he's knocked back hits the ground (wall, car, whatever).

 

This would benefit other power sets too, as they could avoid knockback.  For example, my Electric Control/Force Field Controller has a lot of trouble because Jolting Chain and Force Bolt knock foes out of his area effect sleep power, or just out of range, allowing them to recover and attack him.  My suggestion would allow him to just knock then DOWN instead with no loss of damage.

 

I hope that's clearer.

[UltraAlt]

Add more knockback enhancements?

I mean if you want to knock them off the planet then 3 slot your knockback powers with knockback.

Your teammates might laugh at a melee character knocking their own foes out of range, but play the game your way. 

[Non-melee characters get A LOT of grief for using knockback - even the default without slotting.]

 

Stun too short? Add more stun enhancements. 3 slot it!

 

The only property destruction in City of Heroes is in the Bank Heist missions on the villain side. So that's a good place to "Hulk smash".

 

I'm pretty sure Super Strength was one of the first powers built for the game. I mean sure, it was there at original release, but like  you say - it is a staple of superhero comics if not THE sign of being superhero.

Edited October 28, 2020 by UltraAlt

[Solarverse]

The problem with your ideas and suggested changes is that it would only be fun for the player playing the set. You need to remember this game has a team component to it and with all that suggested knock back, you are not only making things more difficult for yourself (IE keeping mobs stacked on you so that your team can make best use of AoE) but you would also be driving your DPS on your team insane. Yes, it would be wicked cool to knock opponents all over the room and watch them smash in to walls, but your Blasters would probably put you on ignore and never team with you again, hehe.

Edited October 28, 2020 by Solarverse

[foreverboz]

hello,

 

i don't usually comment on here but i just wanted to say that i do like the idea of at least picking up objects other than rocks to throw or even maybe pick up an enemy and throw them at other enemies like hurl. Hurl is my favorite power from the SS set because the animation is so cool looking. i do believe that it could use a bit of a damage increase as it's damage is a lot less than that of one with rock melee stuff (drawing a blank on the set name, idk y). 

[Ultimo]

10 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

Add more knockback enhancements?

I mean if you want to knock them off the planet then 3 slot your knockback powers with knockback.

Your teammates might laugh at a melee character knocking their own foes out of range, but play the game your way. 

[Non-melee characters get A LOT of grief for using knockback - even the default without slotting.]

 

Stun too short? Add more stun enhancements. 3 slot it!

 

The only property destruction in City of Heroes is in the Bank Heist missions on the villain side. So that's a good place to "Hulk smash".

 

I'm pretty sure Super Strength was one of the first powers built for the game. I mean sure, it was there at original release, but like  you say - it is a staple of superhero comics if not THE sign of being superhero.

I agree, Super Strength is kind of THE superhero power, that's why I feel it should perform better, and more like the character is actually STRONG.

The point I was making about knockback is that it IS problematic for many players.  Slotting Knockback enhancers does nothing but take up slots I needed for other things.  That's why I suggested knockback enhancers should ALSO enhance damage, so you could have the knockback without sacrificing your damage output.  I also suggested that knockback should do a bit of additional damage so that it's more desirable.  As you say, right now, people often don't WANT knockback, so it needed something to make people want it.

 

The stun on Hand Clap is still very short when slotted... but that's kind of beside the point.  The thing is, it does no damage at all, and it really should (it does when Hulk does it... it even does it when Statesman does it).

 

Super Strength was indeed one of the first power sets created for the game, which is why it probably should be reevaluated.  Compared to newer sets, it's kind of underperforming... but in my mind, the real issue is that it doesn't act like the character has STRENGTH.

[Ultimo]

1 hour ago, Solarverse said:

The problem with your ideas and suggested changes is that it would only be fun for the player playing the set. You need to remember this game has a team component to it and with all that suggested knock back, you are not only making things more difficult for yourself (IE keeping mobs stacked on you so that your team can make best use of AoE) but you would also be driving your DPS on your team insane. Yes, it would be wicked cool to knock opponents all over the room and watch them smash in to walls, but your Blasters would probably put you on ignore and never team with you again, hehe.

My idea was to convert all knockback to knockdown.  That would actually be HELPFUL on teams.  Only those that specifically slotted to knock foes back would do so.

[Solarverse]

5 minutes ago, Ultimo said:

My idea was to convert all knockback to knockdown.  That would actually be HELPFUL on teams.  Only those that specifically slotted to knock foes back would do so.

Ah I see. I must have read that backwards then.

[Greycat]

25 minutes ago, Ultimo said:

My idea was to convert all knockback to knockdown.  That would actually be HELPFUL on teams.  Only those that specifically slotted to knock foes back would do so.

Which I'd give a hard no to, thanks. I should not have to slot to get functionality back I currently use. The only time I'd say "yeah, that KB should be KD by default" is when it's used by pets/summoned things you can't control (including MM pets.)

[Ultimo]

1 hour ago, Greycat said:

Which I'd give a hard no to, thanks. I should not have to slot to get functionality back I currently use. The only time I'd say "yeah, that KB should be KD by default" is when it's used by pets/summoned things you can't control (including MM pets.)

But that's why I suggested that knockback enhancers should also serve as damage enhancers.  That way you can have knockback but not lose a damage slot.

[Troo]

23 minutes ago, Ultimo said:

But that's why I suggested that knockback enhancers should also serve as damage enhancers.  That way you can have knockback but not lose a damage slot.

I'd personally rather see knockback or knockup add some damage based on the distance and then impacting an object or ground. If we are throwing out wishes.

 

Hmm now that I am thinking about it.. That's kind of what adding damage to knockback enhancements would do. Interesting

 

@Ultimo nice video

Edited October 28, 2020 by Troo

[Greycat]

14 minutes ago, Ultimo said:

But that's why I suggested that knockback enhancers should also serve as damage enhancers.  That way you can have knockback but not lose a damage slot.

It's not "lose a damage slot," it's "losing functionality I have to do something else to get back." On top of dictating slotting.

[Vanden]

25 minutes ago, Ultimo said:

But that's why I suggested that knockback enhancers should also serve as damage enhancers.  That way you can have knockback but not lose a damage slot.

That's fine for powers that are actually attacks, but not for powers where the utility or control of the knockback is the actual point, like Gale or Power Thrust.

[Ultimo]

1 hour ago, Vanden said:

That's fine for powers that are actually attacks, but not for powers where the utility or control of the knockback is the actual point, like Gale or Power Thrust.

Or Repulsion Field.  I agree.  Perhaps exceptions could be made for those kinds of powers.  In either case, knockback should do a bit of damage, based on the distance knocked (even if the target doesn't travel the full distance), so it's a bit more desirable to have (and more in keeping with what we see in the comics).

 

1 hour ago, Greycat said:

It's not "lose a damage slot," it's "losing functionality I have to do something else to get back." On top of dictating slotting.

Any power you have is going to be slotted.  Since I'm referring to attack powers, you're likely going to be slotting them for damage.  So, if you don't want the knockback, you use damage enhancers.  If you do want the knockback, you use knockback enhancers.  If done as I suggest, the damage would be the same, you would lose nothing, and gain the choice of having knockback or knockdown.

 

As it is, if I have no control over whether I have knockback or not.  If I use knockback enhancers now, they take up slots that might have had other things in them.  My idea simply allows you to have the choice and not use up the slots you might have used for damage filled with knockback enhancers that don't actually benefit you.

 

I'm not seeing how you lose anything with this.

[Tsuko]

On 10/27/2020 at 11:51 PM, Ultimo said:

Super Strength is the single most common superhuman power in comic books... even in ancient mythology.  It's ICONIC, and needs to be done right.  It needs to be highly desirable and effective.  I think the adjustments I've outlined above are fairly balanced, but some tweaking might be necessary.  I think the idea is clear, though.

maybe one day 🙂

 

[Greycat]

1 hour ago, Ultimo said:

I'm not seeing how you lose anything with this.

Then you're not actually looking, if I can be blunt.

 

Currently I can slot a power with knockback however I want, within the confines of that power's accepted abilities - not just "damage," but (quite often for me) "ranged damage." I'm rather fond, for instance, of Thunderstrike, which throws some decent ranged defense in on the sixth piece, for single target blasts - it stacks quite nicely.

 

You remove KB.

 

I am now having to slot it in a *specific* way with *specific* IOs to get that functionality back. Which means, no, I don't get the same benefit. I now have to forego that full set in order to find my KB, which I use both offensively and defensively.

 

If IO sets were not a thing? You'd have more of an argument for this.

 

If the game had never been released and were still in beta? That'd be the time to have this discussion.

 

KnockDOWN, frankly, is not as good in the characters I use it with as knockBACK. I have a Dark blast/Pain corrupter. It has a cone KD power. If I have that able to do knock*back,* I can knock away something that gets too close - not only are they knocked down but it adds travel time both for that enemy to finish getting knocked back, but (since they're often melee enemies) to get back where they can do extra damage. Knocking down? They're back up and in my face almost immediately. (This isn't theoretical, by the way. I've noted the character's much LESS survivable if I have that converted to KD.) 

 

1 hour ago, Ultimo said:

As it is, if I have no control over whether I have knockback or not.

You do when you pick the set. *shrug.* It's not like it just suddenly appears all of a sudden (April Fools Day attacks aside.)

 

Frankly, the answer to "people don't like knockback" is "don't be unaware when using knockback." Just like you shouldn't use AOE immobs on top of someone else's (say) Ice Slick, or that people get annoyed with them when someone immobs a group in a strung out line instead of "as a group." You're not arguing for this in this one set, you're arguing for it *globally,* for *all* characters, unless there's some odd dialect of English where nerfing it for everyone, not just this set, isn't what this means:

On 10/27/2020 at 5:51 PM, Ultimo said:

Second, all knockback in the game should be changed to knockDOWN.

Short form, you're wanting to mess with a lot of characters. No thanks.

[Solarverse]

5 hours ago, Greycat said:

Which I'd give a hard no to, thanks. I should not have to slot to get functionality back I currently use. The only time I'd say "yeah, that KB should be KD by default" is when it's used by pets/summoned things you can't control (including MM pets.)

The better option is to have a toggle built in to every character that changes your powers from knock back to knock down and vice versa. That is the only compromise I see playing out well.

[Solarverse]

3 hours ago, Greycat said:

It's not "lose a damage slot," it's "losing functionality I have to do something else to get back." On top of dictating slotting.

Which could also affect your set bonus stats. For an example: You currently have a full set of Damage in Thrust that gives you 3.75% Defense to Ranged. Now that you have to slot for Knock Back to get back your Knock Back, maybe that set only has a 1.25% Defense to Melee instead of Ranged, thus taking you down from the Soft Cap to Ranged and placing you below it instead.

Which is the exact same issue I have now with my Energy Blast Blaster, since I have to slot a KB to KD Enhancement in all of my Knock Back Powers, I always miss out on that sixth Bonus stat.

This is why I say the ONLY viable solution is to add a toggle to every AT that turns KB to KD and vice versa. That way the people who hate knock back can actually slot correctly instead of gimping our builds by placing KB to KD in half our powers. It's not fair to us...and I for sure would not want to turn that table around to those who currently enjoy the Knock Back, it wouldn't be fair to them either.

However, something needs to be done to make it fair for everyone...and the toggle is the only way that fairness can be achieved.

[Solarverse]

20 minutes ago, Tsuko said:

maybe one day 🙂

 

Oh sure, all these wanna-be Energy Melee guys are going to start coming out of the woodwork. That's okay, I always have the bragging rights of, "Energy was my main before it was cool...everyone else are just bandwagon fans..."   😄

[Ultimo]

6 minutes ago, Greycat said:

Then you're not actually looking, if I can be blunt.

 

Currently I can slot a power with knockback however I want, within the confines of that power's accepted abilities - not just "damage," but (quite often for me) "ranged damage." I'm rather fond, for instance, of Thunderstrike, which throws some decent ranged defense in on the sixth piece, for single target blasts - it stacks quite nicely.

 

You remove KB.

 

I am now having to slot it in a *specific* way with *specific* IOs to get that functionality back. Which means, no, I don't get the same benefit. I now have to forego that full set in order to find my KB, which I use both offensively and defensively.

 

If IO sets were not a thing? You'd have more of an argument for this.

 

If the game had never been released and were still in beta? That'd be the time to have this discussion.

 

KnockDOWN, frankly, is not as good in the characters I use it with as knockBACK. I have a Dark blast/Pain corrupter. It has a cone KD power. If I have that able to do knock*back,* I can knock away something that gets too close - not only are they knocked down but it adds travel time both for that enemy to finish getting knocked back, but (since they're often melee enemies) to get back where they can do extra damage. Knocking down? They're back up and in my face almost immediately. (This isn't theoretical, by the way. I've noted the character's much LESS survivable if I have that converted to KD.) 

 

You do when you pick the set. *shrug.* It's not like it just suddenly appears all of a sudden (April Fools Day attacks aside.)

 

Frankly, the answer to "people don't like knockback" is "don't be unaware when using knockback." Just like you shouldn't use AOE immobs on top of someone else's (say) Ice Slick, or that people get annoyed with them when someone immobs a group in a strung out line instead of "as a group." You're not arguing for this in this one set, you're arguing for it *globally,* for *all* characters, unless there's some odd dialect of English where nerfing it for everyone, not just this set, isn't what this means:

Short form, you're wanting to mess with a lot of characters. No thanks.

Ah, I think I see.  I hadn't considered sets and set bonuses, just basic enhancements.  You're right, that also would need to be addressed.  I suppose it could easily be done by making duplicates of the enhancements, so there would be identical damage and knockback options.

 

My thinking is that if there are powers you want to actually knock foes away... you slot them for knockback.  I don't know how you've slotted your cone power, but if you replaced the damage enhancements with knockback enhancements that did the same thing as the damage enhancement, but additionally made the power do knockback... I'm not seeing how it's any different that if it already did the knockback and you just put the damage enhancements in it.  I mean:

 

Power does knockback by default.  You add damage enhancements, it does additional damage and knockback.  This is how it is now.

Power does knockdown by default.  You add knockback enhancements, it does additional damage and knockback.  I'm not seeing how this is any different.

Power does knockdown by default.  You add damage enhancements, it does additional damage, but only knocks foes down.  This is the only thing that's different, and it's something you would CHOOSE.

 

The idea here was to give people the choice.

[Tsuko]

11 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

Oh sure, all these wanna-be Energy Melee guys are going to start coming out of the woodwork. That's okay, I always have the bragging rights of, "Energy was my main before it was cool...everyone else are just bandwagon fans..."   😄

Energy was my main before it was cool.

 

Everyone else are just bandwagon fans.

 

[Greycat]

1 minute ago, Ultimo said:

Ah, I think I see.  I hadn't considered sets and set bonuses, just basic enhancements.  You're right, that also would need to be addressed.  I suppose it could easily be done by making duplicates of the enhancements, so there would be identical damage and knockback options.

 

My thinking is that if there are powers you want to actually knock foes away... you slot them for knockback.  I don't know how you've slotted your cone power, but if you replaced the damage enhancements with knockback enhancements that did the same thing as the damage enhancement, but additionally made the power do knockback... I'm not seeing how it's any different that if it already did the knockback and you just put the damage enhancements in it.  I mean:

 

Power does knockback by default.  You add damage enhancements, it does additional damage and knockback.  This is how it is now.

Power does knockdown by default.  You add knockback enhancements, it does additional damage and knockback.  I'm not seeing how this is any different.

Power does knockdown by default.  You add damage enhancements, it does additional damage, but only knocks foes down.  This is the only thing that's different, and it's something you would CHOOSE.

 

The idea here was to give people the choice.

... you saw it, then missed it.

 

I don't think duplicates of the enhancements would work - you're talking about most of the IO sets in the game. I can currently slot various powers with KB in the game for - off the top of my head -

- Ranged damage.

- Melee damage.

- PBAOE.

- Targeted AOE.

- Defense debuff.

- Tohit debuff

- Hold (for instance, Incandescent Strike)

- KD, of course

- AT specific IOs

 

... and I know I'm missing some. Suggesting duplicates that also have KB mixed in is... not realistic.

 

 

And as for the rest of what you said? All you're doing is repeating the exact same thing over and over and... ignoring that you're screwing up IOs and set bonuses. You are *not* giving people choice, you're nerfing whole powersets and forcing people to completely change their slotting to get original functionality back.

[Ultimo]

1 hour ago, Greycat said:

... you saw it, then missed it.

 

I don't think duplicates of the enhancements would work - you're talking about most of the IO sets in the game. I can currently slot various powers with KB in the game for - off the top of my head -

- Ranged damage.

- Melee damage.

- PBAOE.

- Targeted AOE.

- Defense debuff.

- Tohit debuff

- Hold (for instance, Incandescent Strike)

- KD, of course

- AT specific IOs

 

... and I know I'm missing some. Suggesting duplicates that also have KB mixed in is... not realistic.

 

 

And as for the rest of what you said? All you're doing is repeating the exact same thing over and over and... ignoring that you're screwing up IOs and set bonuses. You are *not* giving people choice, you're nerfing whole powersets and forcing people to completely change their slotting to get original functionality back.

I'm sure it could be worked out, but let's leave that aside for the moment then, as it's not a change specific to Super Strength, and focus instead on my other suggestions.