Aw, Statesman!

[Darmian]

2 minutes ago, GM Arcanum said:

 

There is not, just the contact was replaced with Ms Liberty, but the TF remained the same!

Thanks, Arcanum.  That cut short my googlification!  (Still re-reading the end of the novel though for the Brass Monday/Brass Monday Movie idea!)

[Bionic_Flea]

One other slight difference, no Statesman in final mission.

[Apparition]

If Sister Psyche can be in the LRSF still, no reason that Statesman can’t be as well.  I miss handing him his head.

[CrudeVileTerror]

Given points like that one, @Apparition, I continue to wonder if Statesman wasn't removed due to some intellectual property kerfluffle thing.

But then, as said by others, there is no shortage of people who absolutely despise the character (for all sorts of reasons).  So, it really might just be as simple as the author of the changes being that gung-ho about it.

[DR_Mechano]

1 hour ago, CrudeVileTerror said:

Given points like that one, @Apparition, I continue to wonder if Statesman wasn't removed due to some intellectual property kerfluffle thing.

But then, as said by others, there is no shortage of people who absolutely despise the character (for all sorts of reasons).  So, it really might just be as simple as the author of the changes being that gung-ho about it.

I mean the dude who did those arcs had a serious hateboner for old States.

 

Also Sister P isn't in the LRSF still, she's replaced by Penny IIRC.

[Ruin Mage]

Sister Psyche is in the future timeline mission. Comic book wonkiness. It'd require rewriting that particular mission.

I'd just not touch those two TFs as is, for now, and leave States/Psyche in the grave. Aside from that one mission, she's been pretty removed (aside from WWD)

[Darmian]

Oh, like I said above I wouldn't want them back alive, but new stuff set in the past?  Why not? 

 

Hell, with a recolor of his outfit you could use Manticore's model as the original Manticore and have fun with that!  Manticore Senior and a younger BAB, all the fun of the fair before Protean shows up!

 

You could even go all Flashpointy and have a Thomas Wayne-esque Manticore Sr, where young Justin and his mother died.  There's a Mender mission for you!

Edited October 31, 2020 by Darmian

[EmmySky]

Give the whole thing a sepia-tone color wash out and call it done.....not changing the models might break immersion for some but the color wash can help them pretend its in the past better....so perhaps its a middle ground.  (Referring to anything set in the 30s-60s where model swaps on buildings and cars would be a lot of work.)

[Techwright]

On 10/28/2020 at 1:04 PM, Mister Mass said:

So if Statesman’s role as chief iconic hero is to be replaced, I would rather see Hero One or Ms. Liberty take up the mantle, instead of a revived Statesman or a heroic version of one of his various dimensional or temporal duplicates.

A restored Hero One is cool by me, but a big NO for Ms. Liberty.  Despite her training me from a hero-ling, I've found her a bigger jerk than her grandpappy.  Especially when her Longbow goons are in play.  

 

For me, the solution appears simple.  We've got this big ol' complex called Portal Corp.  We've already found a nasty doppelganger of States.  Why not have a story arc where a good doppelganger is found, say one whose world is toast, and bring him home to fill in.  Now this is not just a carbon copy.  He may have been forged at the well, but since then, he's had his own life and developed both his own personality and costume.  So the new devs can play around with his settings a bit, and create something the players like.  This creates a lot of story potential as well:  a fish-out-of-water starting at the bottom of the hierarchy and learning to fit in, potential conflicts and resolutions with Ms Liberty and Phalanx teammates, different ways of handling situations while trying to avoid the spectre of comparison to the Prime version, and an ongoing storyline of his wrath and avenging hunt for those that destroyed his world.    Imagine story arcs where he shows up to help your level 15 character, not because he's the top dog, but because he's assigned to assist while he's being evaluated for HIS level 16 rank as well (though as a fully experienced hero, he'll be on the fast train to security rank 50).

[CrudeVileTerror]

Since this is now Homecoming:  City of Heroes, maybe the Homecoming Team should make their -own- original and unique signature Hero (or Villain) to stand as their in-game representative.

[Vanden]

6 hours ago, Techwright said:

We've already found a nasty doppelganger of States.  Why not have a story arc where a good doppelganger is found, say one whose world is toast, and bring him home to fill in.

Statesman was the good doppelganger. Primal Marcus Cole was an anomaly in the multiverse, since most of the time he ends up being an outright villain.

[Darmian]

6 hours ago, CrudeVileTerror said:

Since this is now Homecoming:  City of Heroes, maybe the Homecoming Team should make their -own- original and unique signature Hero (or Villain) to stand as their in-game representative.

Perhaps.  But not for a long time I think. And they should be rightfully wary of the Statesman/JE conflation situation.  So if they do that then "Insert Name Here" can't be any one dev's character, they have to belong to the game.

 

We don't need an alternate Statesman, we already have one of those in custody.  I still say there's a lot of mileage in Mender stories about past Statesman though.

[cranebump]

7 hours ago, Darmian said:

Perhaps.  But not for a long time I think. And they should be rightfully wary of the Statesman/JE conflation situation.  So if they do that then "Insert Name Here" can't be any one dev's character, they have to belong to the game.

This is an interesting idea, and I'd be for it. I am assuming, though, that these new heroes would not stand in for the old icons (except maybe as trainers?). On that:

 

(1) None of the past stable of iconic heroes belongs to a current HC dev, right? So, isn't the "political" aspect of dev/hero conflation effectively non-existent, since a new player isn't going to connect States with JE?

 

(2) New players aren't going to make any connections with old Devs, anyway, so bringing back Statesman officially should be a non-issue, right?

 

(3) On the other hand, if the game runs fine with him dead, and we have that SSA where we watch him die, then why bother doing anything with him? (though, tbh, I much prefer Statesman to Ms. Liberty). Speaking of:

 

(4) If Statesman were to reemerge, wouldn't a good place for him be in PI, in place of Castle? And, once placed, maybe create a new, high-level TF using him?

[Darmian]

Keep him dead! 

 

What is done is dead, however badly.  New stories with him?  Sure, in the past. we have the Lore that allows that, but dealing with the actual consequences of his death should remain I think.

[cranebump]

I think the consequences or the original demise remain if "reemerged" States is an unlockable contact in late game, and becomes a gateway to new stories. I'm hoping HC doesn't get locked into Battalion as the next move, mainly because (a) the name is stupid, for an overarching, existential threat, and (2) there's not going to be much in the way of surprises, if they use what we already know (i.e., Battalion and the connection with Khelds). 

 

Bear in mind, I'm not saying we'd have to bring States back (though I wouldn't mind). I just think the Dev conflation barrier is now non-existent, and I think it can be done without messing with the original consequences, if it is tacked on to what comes after. 

 

For the record, I didn't have any issues with the WWD storyline. Was what it was. Did think Wade was a bit of a weird choice, though.

[Darmian]

I think any attempt to use Battalion is ridiculous and the team should look at what is seeded in the Lore, that's what's in the game+novels+comics and it is not an after the fact AMA, however fun that is to read, and move forward from there in a way that is not bound by the original Dev team's ideas or plans.

[Healix]

I thought Statesman was the symbol of Paragon, and sort of compared him to what Superman was to Metropolis. He was the hero we strived to be like. When he was killed off, I HATED it...I did not associate him with the person who ran him ingame. On live, I was always thrilled when I got to interact with him in a mission and always grabbed screenies. In 2004 I had never played an MMO in my life and CoH was my first. States was a leader to me, an example of trying to help keep citizens safe. People can say he was useless, a jerk, or whatever. I held him, and what he stood for, with  regard and always will. I do agree that he should not 'rise from the grave', but would LOVE to have missions that go back in time to fight by his side. 

 

[Sakura Tenshi]

On 10/28/2020 at 8:53 AM, Greycat said:

I have to admit, my recollection in the early game was more "Oh, sure, statesman did stuff. Hmm? Yeah, he's ...er... around. Somewhere. I'm sure." Then you get to the 45-50 range and it's "Oh. Er, by the way, he's been captured by his evil double in Praetoria. Could you be a dear and go rescue him? Thanks."

 

Basically a lot of tell and no show.

Better than Lord Recluse and Arachnos who get rammed up and down both ends of your anatomy from 1-50 and you are reminded with every bit of Redside content you're serving 'The will of Arachnos' one way or another.

[Darmian]

2 minutes ago, Sakura Tenshi said:

Better than Lord Recluse and Arachnos who get rammed up and down both ends of your anatomy from 1-50 and you are reminded with every bit of Redside content you're serving 'The will of Arachnos' one way or another.

Which is why I argue that Arachnos, in order to move forward plot wise, needs to take a step back and appear to behave like a "normal" government. 

[MTeague]

On 11/4/2020 at 9:23 PM, CrudeVileTerror said:

Since this is now Homecoming:  City of Heroes, maybe the Homecoming Team should make their -own- original and unique signature Hero (or Villain) to stand as their in-game representative.

I vote Derek!! *  

For a Clueseau-eque stumblin-bumblin-fumblin his way to herodom! **

 

* not a real suggestion

** but it would be funny

[CrudeVileTerror]

Every April we can have Derek as the temporary Homecoming mascot, sure.  Sounds appropriate.

[therealtitanman]

my suggestion is having statesman conscious in ai form.

ms liberty will grow and knew the current statesman is fraud.

i dont like tyrant as statesman. its very cheesy cliche,

 for replacing character they killed and regret it. 

[Darmian]

8 hours ago, therealtitanman said:

my suggestion is having statesman conscious in ai form.

ms liberty will grow and knew the current statesman is fraud.

i dont like tyrant as statesman. its very cheesy cliche,

 for replacing character they killed and regret it. 

Statesman as an AI?  Oh I don't see that working to be honest. 

Not sure what you mean by Ms Liberty knowing the current Statesman is a fraud.

Tyrant hasn't replaced Statesman. Tyrant has spent the last 8 years (?)  sitting in a supes prison as far as we know. Every other appearance of Statesman is set in the past now. As far as I can see the only possible "now" version of Statesman is when you read the comic part of the Galaxy City tutorial, and the players don't interact with him there.*

 

*I'm pretty certain the Galaxy City attack is time fractured and for a given value of "now" is still happening.  How else does a new hero explain how they were fighting alongside Sister Psyche, then got on a chopper to Atlas Park, got off and found she had died several years earlier?

Edited November 6, 2020 by Darmian

[Sakura Tenshi]

On 11/5/2020 at 1:05 PM, Darmian said:

Which is why I argue that Arachnos, in order to move forward plot wise, needs to take a step back and appear to behave like a "normal" government. 

there's an interesting hook for why they'd have to do that:

 

In the signature story arc, Recluse reveals that he was able to reclaim control of Warburg at any time, and indeed, expressly allowed Marshal Blitz to take control of the island and break off from Arachnos because it meant the Etoile Isle were no longer considered a Nuclear Power by the UN. But, with it being outed Arachnos has not only conventional nuclear weapons, but chemical and bio warfare WMDs, they'd be under much much much closer scrutiny than before. If you really want to extrapolate on this, the awareness of Nuclear (and biological and chemical arms) leads to investigations that leads into a lot more things Arachnos wouldn't really want public to be VERY public (namely the Arachnoids) and for various global powers, this is all the straw that breaks the camel's back and the Etoile is under massive sanctions, if their sleeper agents so much as stir the country would face massive retaliation on a scale even Recluse would rather not deal with (super hero setting, just imagine how many world leaders have black hole generators somewhere. Or play a Command & Conquer game for an idea of super weapon possibilities), and Recluse reluctantly has to clean up and bite his cheeks, he, Red Widow, and Ghost widow are patient enough to weather this. Mako and Black Scorpion? No, they signed on to get carte blanche on murder and terror, so they basically spark ANOTHER civil war that weakens Arachnos further, ultimately topped off with all these agents of 'good' (or at least order) hanging around Scirocco (and Ice Mistral) giving him the perfect chance to switch sides and the Mu go into their own squabbles on who should lead and if they should remain with Arachnos.

 

This leaves Recluse, Red and Ghost Widow with a massive mess to clean up with Arachnos under massive scrutiny they can't actually deal with and a civil war they can't suppress compared to Marshall Blitz's. The double edged sword for Recluse is that these U.N. peacekeepers and can be pointed to groups like the Council and Nemesis in the Isles, distracting them from always watching Recluse and alleviating pressure from the broken arachnos. But the more he accepts help, Arachnos finds itself in debt and Recluse's own followers end up seeing him as weak, so he needs to play a careful game.

[iWeasle]

I can't speak to the future development of the story for reasons that are about to become clear, but I would personally enjoy it if some of the content with Statesman from before he died was restored in some fashion (Oroborous possibly) just because back on live I never got far enough to experience it before he died, but that was the era I played in.

I, didn't have the attention span to level a character to 50... lol.