Something to play towards or un-necessary forced time sink

[Neiska]

My humble opinion on the topic.

 

Not everyone is going to enjoy the same activities. You could say that about any game. Some people will enjoy story missions. Some will enjoy radio/newspaper. Some enjoy playing the markets. Some enjoy base building. Some enjoy trying multiple builds. Some enjoy farming. Some enjoying roleplay and dont level at all. Some peoples passion is PVP.

 

And you know what?

 

That's normal. I would argue, to be expected.

 

I don't begrudge anyone who enjoys those activities, or other activities that have not been mentioned.  I do my thing, and other people do theirs, and we meet in the middle. What I do not support though, is making X activity "required", or what I like to call, "false timesinks", meaning activities with no real purpose aside from making you put time into the game. An example of this would be time-gated reputations on another popular MMO. It should be "optional", not required. 

 

As far as what I personally enjoy, well, that is largely a question of investment/risk vs reward. If the gain isn't worth what I value as my personal hobby time, well then I won't do it. If it is, then I will consider it. But I will largely give anything a chance, as long as it has the option for me to go "You know what? This isn't for me. I don't enjoy this. I am going to go do something else ingame."

 

Another thing I don't support, is games forcing/artificially encouraging players into the X, Y, or Z activities, or other players trying to get systems to co-hearse other players into doing what they themselves enjoy.

 

Lets take PVP for example. (full disclosure for clarity, I am not a pvper, as I don't enjoy it. But I have no ill wishes for those that do enjoy it, nor do I make any claim here that they have made any claims. I only use PVP as an activity example.) For argument's sake, lets say that all zones on all servers were suddenly open PVP areas. For those that enjoy PVP, it might be fantastic. But for those people who hate and loathe PVP, it would be hell. And personally rather than put up with any other players imposing grief/playstyle, I would never leave the pocket D, or I would uninstall the game. I dislike PVP that much, and it would be enforced upon me. And I suspect many would feel the same. (again, no one to my knowledge has argued FOR this, or mentioned anywhere. I am only using it as an example.)

 

Just as you enjoy one activity, and dislike say, farming. It would be just as wrong to force farming upon you, when I myself do enjoy farming time to time. It's convenient. I can do it at my own pace. I can help my friends, or help myself get more equipment. But I wouldn't support a system that assumes that everyone is a die hard farmer, far as setting prices/builds/power tweaks and so on.

 

TLDR - I guess to summarize, I just think more OPTIONS are good, so long as they are that, Optional. I would not support or like anything that's "forced" or required, even if it had a carrot on a stick.

 

Just my thoughts on it. I do my thing, you do yours, and we will meet in the middle somewhere. More people doing things that they enjoy is good for everyone. Forcing people to do things they don't want to is bad for everyone.

 

Best wishes to everyone, Heroes and Villians. Stay healthy! 

[ivanhedgehog]

On 11/21/2020 at 4:44 AM, Lockpick said:

 

A good point.  I think when evaluating a position we should be asking is the position reasonable or not.  In most of my posts I say things like "it seems reasonable to me" or "it doesn't seem unreasonable to me" primarily because I am trying to align my opinion / position on this topic with trying to be reasonable.

 

I'm not suggesting we change any of the costume parts that are there now.  I don't necessarily agree with the position the HC team took to make everything unlocked, but it is what it is and I get why they did it.  However, I don't think it is unreasonable to have 5 to 10 new costume parts be earned in game when all the other costume parts are unlocked.  I haven't seen any argument that has persuaded me that my position is unreasonable.

 

I will say that I do like much of what HC did to remove the grind.  I guess there is one server that is just like Live.  I have no desire to play that level of grind.  I'm just looking for a few more rewards to incentivize playing the existing content and provide a sense of continual character progression.  I don't think that position is unreasonable.

 

All that being said, I don't think my position is going to persuade the HC team or the people who are opposed, so not sure it matters.  I just thought I would add my opinion to this thread becasue I think it is good for the HC team to hear a variety of opinions.

 

 

And is it unreasonable to have 5 to 10 costume parts earned in game out of hundreds or thousands of costume parts that are freely available?  How many costume parts earned in game would be reasonable?

Is it too much to ask that if you dont want to use a cape until level 20 and after you do the mission, you just restrict yourself to that? I enjoy doing the cim unlock mission, so I do it for myself. I dont need anyone to force me to make me do it.

[Lockpick]

2 hours ago, ivanhedgehog said:

Is it too much to ask that if you dont want to use a cape until level 20 and after you do the mission, you just restrict yourself to that? I enjoy doing the cim unlock mission, so I do it for myself. I dont need anyone to force me to make me do it.

I don't know what to tell you.  My post clearly stated that "I'm not suggesting we change any of the costume parts that are there now."  Later in this thread I suggested we drop the topic of locking costume parts behind gates because the HC team does not seem to be inclined to do it and it might make more sense to focus on other types of gating content / rewards.

[Solarverse]

6 hours ago, Lockpick said:

I don't know what to tell you.  My post clearly stated that "I'm not suggesting we change any of the costume parts that are there now."  Later in this thread I suggested we drop the topic of locking costume parts behind gates because the HC team does not seem to be inclined to do it and it might make more sense to focus on other types of gating content / rewards.

Same here. I have also suggested we stay away from locking costumes and tried tossing out other ideas while welcoming other alternative ideas that others have mentioned. It seems this thread keeps going back to the costumes again and again even after we have said that we will back off the gated costumes rout. We simply can't seem to break away from that because people keep bringing it back up.  😞

[tidge]

6 hours ago, Solarverse said:

 We simply can't seem to break away from that because people keep bringing it back up.  😞

This should come as no surprise, as certain costumes and emotes were originally 'gated'. I'm not in favor of gates; I'd go so far as to call most of the historically 'gated' content to be adversely affecting the Quality of Play Enjoyment, even if those restrictions could be rationalized with in game Lore, or player CPU specs.

 

On Live certain ATs were 'gated' (at different points of the game), and veteran rewards eventually 'unlocked' the prestige powers which help to make low level grind tolerable.

 

I can't write for anyone else but myself, but: I remember how arbitrary the gates used to be, and how much more enjoyable the game is without those gates. It doesn't matter to me if there is an intellectual movement that seeks to rationalize the re-institution of gates in some particular context which they feel avoids all the historically negative associations with gated content... it's still imposing gates, and gates sine qua non separate classes of players from certain aspects of play.

Edited November 24, 2020 by tidge
left out an important 'not', without which my written opinion represented the opposite of my thoughts!

[Dracomicon]

I have been reading this thread with some interest. I am a long time player from beta and the general theme of this thread is how can we grab new player's interest while also keeping long time players. I believe that more people playing is better for everyone.

 

This thread has brought up some interesting ideas for how to use rewards as a way to maintain the interest of some of the players. The way those rewards are used and even what defines a reward has been discussed in some interesting ways here.

 

While I enjoy several different styles of play in this game, one of the biggest motivators for me is character development and the progression of a story that is encouraged through some type of reward. I have thought about how this can be done in game while not taking away from someone else's enjoyment. This is the idea that I came up with:

 

Have costume pieces open up options to gain badges or small bonuses at certain times during your character's progression.

 

Example) Your character wears a cape and obtains the Hero One Memorial Badge. This unlocks a moderate speed bonus (say 5%) to your character when wearing a cape.

 

Example) Your character wears a vanguard costume piece. When you reach level 35 and obtain the Member of Vanguard badge, a new contact sends you a message asking if you would like to earn that costume piece. After completing this mission you get a small increased bonus to gain Vanguard Merits.

 

Example) Living Costume Badge
Every main piece of a costume has a mission tied to it. Head, Upper Body, Lower Body, Back Detail, Auras all have a mission that unlocks with certain types of costume parts that give certain types of bonuses. The Vanguard hat gives a small bonus to Vanguard Merits, the Stealth Upper Body parts give a bonus to stealth radius, Zombie leg gives a 5% resistance against negative energy.

 

These missions unlock at different levels and once you have completed all 5, you gain the Living Costume Badge that states: "You have become one with your costume and it no longer slows you down". This will give the Living Costume accolade that is a 10% recharge reduction on all powers.

 

Example) Costume Set Bonus Unlock
Every costume set has a specific bonus that unlocks after you run a specific TF or Mission arc, while wearing that full set. Your character keeps that bonus as long as you wear one piece from that set.
So if you run the ITF while wearing the Roman costume set, you unlock an accolade that gives a 5% defense boost while wearing any part of the Roman costume.

Vanguard set gives a Merit boost.

 

Zombie gives a negative energy resist boost.

 

These are just examples of how this idea can be used in game. I like this idea of my costume opening up certain aspects of the game, because it gives my character some background into his costume that steers me towards certain missions that flesh out his story of becoming super powered.

[Coyotedancer]

One of the real appeals of City for many of us has always been that, unlike most other MMOs, your costume had nothing to do with your powers. Costume bits were never "gear" in any utility sense.

 

I think you'd get a huge amount of push-back if you tried to change that now.  

[Naraka]

On 11/21/2020 at 4:53 PM, Coyotedancer said:

 

You might want to go back and re-read Naraka's post on the subject... 

If I called you a bully, it likely had to do with how you put your argument forth. And if I said you were entitled, it probably had to do with how you engaged or dismissed an argument of your opposition. And it certainly didn't ONLY call you a bully or entitled but also came with a slew of other points you likely brushed aside to distill the post down to a personal attack, which it is not (there's a difference between a personal attack and criticism of your opinions).

On 11/22/2020 at 9:42 AM, tidge said:

 

2) It appears that the folks who are most in favor of gated content, also want the game-world to recognize that they have been able to open the 'gate'. It could be visually obvious (e.g. a costume piece, a badge name, a +1 badge count) or it could be performance based (e.g. more enhancement slots, more accolades/powers).  The conversation in this thread have revealed that there is not even agreement on what the rewards should be for passing through hypothetical gates.

If by "reorganize", you mean put said opportunity on the table rather than outright dismiss it as additional future content, sure. How you word that makes it sound like restructuring the current game rather than adding it on top of the current game.

On 11/22/2020 at 10:09 AM, Tyrannical said:

Who needs grind in game when yall are so busy grinding in this forum 

That's a good question. Usually people don't like pointing out their post frequency of their gameplay frequency of ratio of the two. I could outline my playing other games but I don't think it's that relevant.

On 11/22/2020 at 10:25 AM, jubakumbi said:

And a corollary to that is an argument that the existence of said gated content would encourage people to both play that content and stay to play in general, if there was more of that content added.

 

I think the gated content sans costumes is already mostly there in the form of badges and temp powers, personally, and HC is adding more badges.

 

I also think that this gated content will have no real impact on player retention at this point in the games lifecycle.

I don't play gated content now in MMOs that still have corporate funding, I never played it in COH, unless I felt like the content was fun,

Playing content just to open a gate on a character is a chore like cleaning the garage, it is not fun like playing in the sprinkler on a hot day, IMO.

Sure, I might have a clean garage to show off, but who cares?

 

Can we just stop and point out how the intent had been hijacked by this consistent use of the term "gated"? Language is a powerful tool than can be used for good or ill. I think using the term to clarify implementation is ok but as an argument against us taking the context of. 

 

Obviously, the intent is "rewards" but that seems to have to positive a connotation for you guys to even use along side your criticism. I think I may see rewards or incentive less than gated. 

 

Frankly, the intent is to give content meaningful rewards. Period. If that isn't something you agree with, you can probably just post that post and stop. 

[QuiJon]

I think I personally would rather the devs spend time on creating new challenging content then figuring out ways to simply lock content behind made up walls keeping it locked away. 

[tidge]

On 11/22/2020 at 9:42 AM, tidge said:

2) It appears that the folks who are most in favor of gated content, also want the game-world to recognize that they have been able to open the 'gate'. It could be visually obvious (e.g. a costume piece, a badge name, a +1 badge count) or it could be performance based (e.g. more enhancement slots, more accolades/powers).  The conversation in this thread have revealed that there is not even agreement on what the rewards should be for passing through hypothetical gates.

 

1 hour ago, Naraka said:

If by "reorganize", you mean put said opportunity on the table rather than outright dismiss it as additional future content, sure. How you word that makes it sound like restructuring the current game rather than adding it on top of the current game.

Reading fail or quoting fail? The quote includes the words "recognize", "revealed", and "rewards"... so I'm not sure how your text applies to the post you quoted.

[Naraka]

6 hours ago, QuiJon said:

I think I personally would rather the devs spend time on creating new challenging content then figuring out ways to simply lock content behind made up walls keeping it locked away. 

I don't see why they couldn't do 2 things at once. 

[Lockpick]

6 minutes ago, Naraka said:

I don't see why they couldn't do 2 things at once. 

The reality is that they cannot create "new challenging content" in any meaningful way.  They have provided 4 story arcs that have been pretty good IMO, but those arcs have come out over 1.5 years and 2 of the arcs have alignment restrictions.  Until the HC team unlocks the ability of the player community to provide content with rationalized rewards there will be limited content pushed to Live. 

 

The HC team could implement new rewards for existing content that is lacking said rewards pretty quickly.  This would give more incentive to do content that I expect is often skipped today.

 

I also think they could do other improvements that allow the players to customize content pretty quickly as well.  I won't go into details because I have done so a number of times in different threads, so no need to repeat.

 

It just doesn't seem to be a focus area.  The focus areas seem to be more about wholesale balance changes to existing sets and disrupting the movement speed of certain sets.  Odd priorities in my mind, but it is what it is.

[Luminara]

On 11/22/2020 at 9:42 AM, tidge said:

2) It appears that the folks who are most in favor of gated content, also want the game-world to recognize that they have been able to open the 'gate'. It could be visually obvious (e.g. a costume piece, a badge name, a +1 badge count) or it could be performance based (e.g. more enhancement slots, more accolades/powers).  The conversation in this thread have revealed that there is not even agreement on what the rewards should be for passing through hypothetical gates.

 

In fact, the thread appears to be focused on the rewards for gated content, rather than the gates themselves.  I think that's a backward approach.  We've primarily discussed what kinds of rewards we had, rewards which were made freely available, rewards which could be implemented, but that's putting the cart before the horse.  Gates have to exist for rewards to have meaning and purpose, to be rewards.  Without the gates, they're just handouts.

 

Since I'm no less guilty of diverting the thread away toward discussion of rewards instead of gates, I'll nudge it in what I believe is the proper direction, toward gates and gating.

 

Right now, the primary form of gating is combat.  You need to engage in combat to earn XP.  You need to earn XP to increase in level.  You need to increase level to access more, more varied, or better powers.  You need more, more varied, or better powers to continue to gain XP at a reasonable rate, due to the scaling increase in XP required per level.  It creates a self-sustaining gate, and the rewards appropriately reflect the time and effort involved in passing through the gates presented by the XP/level/powers loop.

 

Other gates exist in direct relation to the XP/level/powers gated system.  Most story content is gated by level, with a gate "passkey" offered in the form of sidekicking.  IO sets are gated by level.  Various temporary powers are gated by mission or arc.  Some story content is gated by specific powers (Lost Cure, for example), which are only obtainable once you reach a certain level.  Faster travel used to be gated by both level (14) and power selection (2 powers to Fly/Superspeed/Super Jump/Teleport).

 

Some gates have been removed.  Team size used to be a gate for accessing some story content.  Level used to be a gate for accessing some cosmetic items.  Progression used to be partially gated by debt, which cut XP gain significantly in the past.

 

So what kinds of gates do gate-seekers actually want?  Level gates?  Team size gates (solo is a team of 1)?  Power specific gates?  Archetype gates like EAT/VEAT story content?  Or are there gates which don't exist, but could?  Branching missions can gate story content, like what @Piecemeal has already accomplished.  That's one.  @Lockpick suggested using veteran levels as gates, as they do little at the moment, and linking them to existing gates in a unique way, so that's another.  How about some more?  Let's hear some creative suggestions for gates, whether they're existing gates used in a different way or entirely new gates.

 

When we have some decent gates to talk about, then we can talk about what kinds of rewards to offer.  And remember, gate doesn't necessarily have to equate to grind.  A gate can be very difficult to surmount without being grindy, or it can be grindy and still easily accomplished by placing a power on auto-fire and going AFK for a while.  There's no inherent conflation between the two, it's just how they've been traditionally viewed.  If you realize that everything is gated in some manner, even if it's just pressing the button to log in, then you can look at the game in a different light, see the gates for what they are and let your imagination guide you in improving existing gates and making new ones which are both interesting and relevant.

[VV]

I think that the idea of putting a time sink into a freebie game that nobody makes any money off of is ridiculous and the assumption that anyone would do that is equally ridiculous.

 

(Of course, the time sinks that were already in there notwithstanding)

[CrudeVileTerror]

"... that anyone would ..."

[VV]

3 hours ago, Naraka said:

I don't see why they couldn't do 2 things at once. 

Because they have lives. Because nobody is paying them. Because time is not infinite and entropy exists. I mean, seriously, what a senseless question.

[VV]

9 minutes ago, CrudeVileTerror said:

"... that anyone would ..."

LMAO I love that GIF meme!

[CrudeVileTerror]

And Nathan Fillion loves you too!

 . . . or so I've heard.

[Lockpick]

1 hour ago, VV said:

I think that the idea of putting a time sink into a freebie game that nobody makes any money off of is ridiculous and the assumption that anyone would do that is equally ridiculous.

 

(Of course, the time sinks that were already in there notwithstanding)

What time sinks are you referring to?  We are talking about adding rewards to existing content.  It's the exact same content, but with additional rewards for doing it.

 

Example: Add an accolade badge and passive power that provide 5% movement speed for completing all 4 Shadow Shard TFs and some exploration / history badges

3 hours ago, Luminara said:

So what kinds of gates do gate-seekers actually want?  Level gates?  Team size gates (solo is a team of 1)?  Power specific gates?  Archetype gates like EAT/VEAT story content?  Or are there gates which don't exist, but could?  Branching missions can gate story content, like what @Piecemeal has already accomplished.  That's one.  @Lockpick suggested using veteran levels as gates, as they do little at the moment, and linking them to existing gates in a unique way, so that's another.  How about some more?  Let's hear some creative suggestions for gates, whether they're existing gates used in a different way or entirely new gates.

I can only speak for myself, but I would like to see rewards added for content that does not have rewards today.  We would have to be careful not to add rewards that would be over powered.  I have mentioned some previously.  Some others:

 

• Defeat all the named Giant Monsters and get a badge
• Complete all the TFs for a faction and get a badge and an unlock of some sort
• I really like the branching stories gate.  The Laura Lockhart story arc was very well done with doing the original mission then doing it through Flashback for additional choices and a badge.  Made the entire experience very rewarding.  I wouldn't mind seeing a few more like this, but you wouldn't want it to become a common occurrence.

[therealtitanman]

how to make engaging with no stretching the gameplay, 

 

-new type of enhancement which only pay with new merit and unable to sell in AH.

-remove all filler tf quest like kill x number of mob 

-instant tp to next tf door without travel long range, group tp.

 

make leveling 1 to 50 in very short hours example x8 current exp,

not every farmer are willing to plevel and vet player down to extreme low level tf without weekly bonus.

so everyone can keep up with the kadashian.

-tf now has 50 and normal which unlock the same badges, and 50+ added veteran badges

 

So now new player are getting more easier and more engaging with vet player.

 

 

 

[Lockpick]

A couple more:

• Get a badge and a 1% passive movement speed buff for completing the missions in a grouping listed in the Oro portal. This missions could be done as you level or through flashback. There are 8 groupings, so a total of 8% movement buff could be earned:
  • Level 1 - 15: 20 mission arcs - Reward = badge and 1% passive movement buff
  • Level 16 - 19: 7 Mission arcs - Reward = badge and 1% passive movement buff
  • Etc.
• Complete all Unai Kemen missions - Get a badge

I like movement speed buffs as rewards because I don't think they are OP and there is a cap of movement speed, so if you earn 15% movement speed through these type of rewards you still are limited by the cap.

[tidge]

On the topic of types of "gates" which exist, and feel natural to me in CoX:

 

1) Level gates: Aside from the mechanics of enemy groups, it makes sense to me that certain content cannot be directly accessed until a character meets the minimum level. The sidekick/exemplar system helps to mitigate most hard feelings around this type of gate, including 'out-leveling' content. Others may not feel as strongly as I do (in a positive sense), but the Live team just removed another one of the level gates by allowing higher level characters to go back to lower level PVP zones to get missions.

 

2) Alignment gates: With Null the Gull opening the gate at will, I am always surprised that folks push back on the idea that they have to change alignment to access content on the 'other side'. To me, the alignment gates seem very natural.

 

3) Zone gates: You have to go to certain zones for specific content, that seems completely logical to me.

 

With issue 27, we have (sort of) re-instituted a gate relating to "Long Range Teleport" in that a character has to collect what used to be called a 'beacon badge' in order to have personal direct-access to the zone. This is completely mitigated that SG bases can still install the beacons without having to collect the beacons, unlike on live. I'm less in favor of this gate, but it is such a minor issue that it doesn't bother me.

 

[Naraka]

10 hours ago, VV said:

Because they have lives. Because nobody is paying them. Because time is not infinite and entropy exists. I mean, seriously, what a senseless question.

That wasn't a question. Although it's nice to see your lack of appreciation for what you do get. Rather than put forward suggestions of things you would like to see and let them decide how and if to implement it, you go on bickering about how people assume we have infinite time or chiding on about the entropy of the universe.

[Naraka]

1 hour ago, tidge said:

On the topic of types of "gates" which exist, and feel natural to me in CoX:

 

There are a lot of ideas that have been tossed around, some neat, some difficult to quantify or some that are throw aways. Plenty of ammo to put on a drawing board with how to implement, with or without (or both) achievements.

 

At for "gates", the achievement itself can be a gate and unlocking something through gameplay is how you unlock them. I don't honestly see that as a meaningfully discussion since the reward you unlock should be contextual to said "gate". Like, if we're talking about unlocking a freakshow costume party or power, is assume the gate would be linked to content regarding freakshow.

 

If it were some kind of movement speed thing, it would probably deal with a race or combating a speedster foe under certain conditions. 

 

[tidge]

13 hours ago, Luminara said:

In fact, the thread appears to be focused on the rewards for gated content, rather than the gates themselves.  I think that's a backward approach.  We've primarily discussed what kinds of rewards we had, rewards which were made freely available, rewards which could be implemented, but that's putting the cart before the horse.  Gates have to exist for rewards to have meaning and purpose, to be rewards.  Without the gates, they're just handouts.

I feel that this snippet should be the mission statement for the thread, as it's the only point of discussion (*1) that separates this discussion from simply being a suggestion thread asking for more things in the game.