Tanker Primary "Tough Test"

[Tsuko]

1 hour ago, Werner said:

Yeah, and I hope nothing I say suggesting changes or cautions comes across as impugning what @Galaxy Brain has done here. I think it's awesome, as long as we understand that it's totally unreasonable for me to conclude that we should...

 

Buff Shield Defense and Dark Armor!!! 😉 

 

(Though if you want to give Dark Armor a little DDR, I won't complain. Shhhh. It'll be our secret.)

 

7 hours ago, BZRKR said:

And Radiation too! 🙂

But seriously, thank you Galaxy Brain for taking the time to do this testing and present the findings in a digestible format. If you plan on doing further permutations of this test, may I suggest one where the enemy group is:

2 level 54 Rikti Magi

2 level 54 Rikti Priests

7 level 54 Rikti Headmen

… just off the top of my head, for no specific reason *whistle*

[Hyperstrike]

2 hours ago, Eclipse. said:

You're not wrong...but I'd argue when you put it like that it makes it sound a lot less significant than it is.

That +2.5% better defense = 10% more damage mitigation in that equation.

 

 

Again, that 2.5% isn't +2.5% better Defense.
It's +0.25% (+2.5% base enhancement).

100% is unslotted.  x1.0
56% enhanced (SOs) is x1.56

Spoiler

Hero Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.7.2.10
https://github.com/Crytilis/mids-reborn-hero-designer

Click this DataLink to open the build!

SO Weave: Level 49 Magic Tanker
Primary Power Set: Invulnerability
Secondary Power Set: Battle Axe
Power Pool: Fighting

Hero Profile:
Level 1: [Empty]
Level 1: Beheader -- Empty(A)
Level 2: [Empty]
Level 4: [Empty]
Level 6: [Empty]
Level 8: [Empty]
Level 10: [Empty]
Level 12: [Empty]
Level 14: Weave -- DefBuff(A), DefBuff(15), DefBuff(15)
Level 16: [Empty]
Level 18: [Empty]
Level 20: [Empty]
Level 22: [Empty]
Level 24: [Empty]
Level 26: [Empty]
Level 28: [Empty]
Level 30: [Empty]
Level 32: [Empty]
Level 35: [Empty]
Level 38: [Empty]
Level 41: [Empty]
Level 44: [Empty]
Level 47: [Empty]
Level 49: [Empty]
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- Empty(A)
------------

 

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58.5% enhanced (IOs) is x1.58

Spoiler

Hero Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.7.2.10
https://github.com/Crytilis/mids-reborn-hero-designer

Click this DataLink to open the build!

IO Weave: Level 49 Magic Tanker
Primary Power Set: Invulnerability
Secondary Power Set: Battle Axe
Power Pool: Fighting

Hero Profile:
Level 1: [Empty]
Level 1: Beheader -- Empty(A)
Level 2: [Empty]
Level 4: [Empty]
Level 6: [Empty]
Level 8: [Empty]
Level 10: [Empty]
Level 12: [Empty]
Level 14: Weave -- DefBuff-I:50(A), DefBuff-I:50(15), DefBuff-I:50(15)
Level 16: [Empty]
Level 18: [Empty]
Level 20: [Empty]
Level 22: [Empty]
Level 24: [Empty]
Level 26: [Empty]
Level 28: [Empty]
Level 30: [Empty]
Level 32: [Empty]
Level 35: [Empty]
Level 38: [Empty]
Level 41: [Empty]
Level 44: [Empty]
Level 47: [Empty]
Level 49: [Empty]
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- Empty(A)
------------

 

| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer to view the build |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------|
|MxDz;595;260;520;HEX;|
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|-------------------------------------------------------------------|

Again, if 100% is 10 Defense
SOs become 15.6% Defense
IOs become 15.85% Defense. 
You're gaining .25% to your ACTUAL defense numbers.

If you don't believe what I'm saying, the two builds above are Inv/Ax with only T1 attack and WEAVE.
And keep in mind that Mids rounds UP to the nearest 0.1% Defense

Base of 5% Defense.
On SOs, 7.8%
On IOs, 7.9%

To get +2.5% Defense you'd have to start with a power that, unaugmented, delivered 100% Defense.

So YES!  It *IS* every bit as insignificant as I'm making it sound.

It's not "nothing".  But it isn't what you're making it out to be.

Edited November 24, 2020 by Hyperstrike

[Hyperstrike]

1 hour ago, Tsuko said:

 

Buff it yourself!  It's called an Endgame build.

And up until about the mid 30's, a more traditional mixed Res/Def build (taking CJ, Weave and Maneuvers) results in a decently tough setup.

But once you hit RWZ levels, you start eggshelling due to lack of  DDR.
So that's about the point you start respec'ing for a Max Resist build.

[Tsuko]

28 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

Buff it yourself!  It's called an Endgame build.

And up until about the mid 30's, a more traditional mixed Res/Def build (taking CJ, Weave and Maneuvers) results in a decently tough setup.

But once you hit RWZ levels, you start eggshelling due to lack of  DDR.
So that's about the point you start respec'ing for a Max Resist build.

Really ? Dam... but it should expensive no ?

[Werner]

9 hours ago, Eclipse. said:

That +2.5% better defense = 10% more damage mitigation in that equation.

7 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

Again, that 2.5% isn't +2.5% better Defense.
It's +0.25% (+2.5% base enhancement).
To get +2.5% Defense you'd have to start with a power that, unaugmented, delivered 100% Defense.
So YES!  It *IS* every bit as insignificant as I'm making it sound.

Even if not 100%, Super Reflexes has very high base values, so the 2.48% additional enhancement provides 0.64% defense. It still sounds small, but it's taking us from 40.56% defense to 41.20% defense, and we're approaching the soft cap, where marginal improvements have an exaggerated impact. At 40.56% defense, an even level minion is hitting us 9.44% of the time. At 41.20% defense, that same minion is hitting us 8.80% of the time. The lieutenants and bosses scale proportionally. You could call that 100% - 8.80%/9.44% = 6.8% less damage taken, or perhaps 9.44%/8.80% - 100% = 7.3% more damage mitigation, depending on our definition of mitigation. Not huge, not insignificant, it's a bit better. But in the real world, where I would hope that even people playing with SOs have pushed themselves over 45% with pool powers, the extra defense from IOs would provide no extra mitigation outside of incarnate content.

Edited November 24, 2020 by Werner

[Werner]

6 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

Buff it yourself!  It's called an Endgame build.

 It buffs up pretty good.

On 9/16/2020 at 9:57 PM, Tsuko said:

i had to do it for the pride of the Rad / SS / Soul tankers 😄

Imperious Task Force +4x8, Enemy Buffed, No temp Powers, no death, no inspirations : 1 hour 29 minutes and 55 seconds.

[Werner]

10 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

First thing to note, all sets except Fire actually lasted longer on average vs +4/x8 with pool powers than they did at 0/8 with no pool powers. 

That's crazy! I did not expect it to be that big of a jump. Interesting!

Edited November 24, 2020 by Werner

[BZRKR]

7 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:

Buff it yourself!  It's called an Endgame build.

Yeah, that's the joke 🙂 

Radiation is fine in the RWZ with a proper build in place.

[Bill Z Bubba]

That massive deviation is surprising to me for SR. But then if I try to remember the old days, there were a lot of jokes about how SR was either immortal or dead.

[Solarverse]

On 11/22/2020 at 3:58 PM, Galaxy Brain said:

Ice Armor: 

A cool surprise to be sure, Ice's layered approach did really well! Similarly to invuln, being able to saturate a mob's worth of +Def alongside a Dull Pain clone have it great staying power, able to hit that 5 minute mark a few times thanks to the -Rech and +Def working wonderfully. That said, it also had a big gap with it's worst time being so low as well. It has a lot of defense, and the ability to eliminate threats with Icicles over time, but once hits land it has no resistance to assist with the blows.

I knew that would be the case. I have an Ice/Ice who is my second most played Tank and even though I have probably one of the best possible builds one can have for an Ice/Ice Tank, the holes in the Resist Department are always the major downfall. Sadly, if one NPC in a mob gets a lucky roll of the dice and penetrates your defense, it's almost as if they all get that same lucky roll and they all hit you at once...and you can only hope your Resists can to live up to the challenge.

Edited November 24, 2020 by Solarverse

[Yerg]

In reality though, with set bonuses and Incarnates, from my own experience, I put Electric Number one. 

 

Once it has high defenses to all positional damage and is capped for Energy and S/L and nearly capped to all except Negative (70 or so) and Toxic  (50ish), Electric barely gets scratched with most content. The heal is barely needed. Add to that that all the end drain and Psi damage you see in the late game that doesn't even phase electric, and you have a Tank with no real holes and is nearly unkillable. I almost said Is unkillable... but you may occasionally see the floor like any Tank does, once in a blue moon. \

 

Oh, and how hard do mobs hit with their endurance floored and kept there?  Not very.  lol

 

That is my story and I am sticking to it. And yes, without IO's and Incarnates, Elec is mid range. And playing it to 50 can be a challenge at times compared to say Bio.  But later, it's crazy godmode like! Power Surge is laughable, because the tank is already at higher numbers, with no crash after 3 minutes.  😉

Edited November 24, 2020 by Yerg

[Heraclea]

11 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

First thing to note, all sets except Fire actually lasted longer on average vs +4/x8 with pool powers than they did at 0/8 with no pool powers. 

 

Second, Granite is no surprise but Invuln holding up to the immortal line at the technical max difficulty is given the bare minimum investment!

 

Bio holds strong still, collectively taking the number 2 spot even in offensive mode (Again, not counting Granite). Invuln I put above Bio though as I only ever needed to use Dull Pain once, while Bio Defensive I needed to cycle the clicks often to survive despite not going down.

 

Ice is the same deal as before, though it never killed anyone. Willpower received a HUGE boost with added res and def moving above SR, which held up relatively the same with beyond soft-cap, but still getting the occasional hit in hurt badly. Speaking of, I can confirm scaling starts at 60%, but I would still love it to start at least at 90%.

 

Shield and Rad likewise jumped up, Shield much more so. The kicker here was like with WP, the added Res and Def stacks very nicely with the existing Res and Def in the set, and allowed for an additional Shield Charge to buy time per run on average. Rad bumped up two spots just on the note of being a bit tougher, and by nature of a certain other set plummeting.

 

Stone is about the same as before, as are Dark and Fire (though Fire actually fared worse), but the massive drop is with Elec Armor. The added res helps, as does a bit of defense, but at +4 the end drain potency has been stripped which allowed about half the runs on 0/8 to be immortal. Oh well

This is a lot closer to my experience.  The only real surprise is Electric faring so poorly.  Then again it is an offense oriented set, probably better on a brute than a tanker, and it does well against foes that other sets struggle against.  Endurance drain is not all that common in  the grand scheme of things, but often catastrophic when it hits, the same deal as with toxic and psionic damage.   But endurance drain as a player power targeted at mobs is pretty useless, because the way mobs get and use endurance is different.

 

I very seldom take Leadership pool on a tanker; some of the sets with recovery powers may support it. 

[ninja surprise]

19 hours ago, Tsuko said:

For instance, Radiation Armor needs Radiation Therapy / particle shielding with good recharge change ALL. It's even stronger with Dark Armor huge heal.

Don't get me wrong, i m very impress by @Galaxy Brain tests : tons of hard work.

But there about tankers, mitigation is not just about numbers : movement, position, synergy of armor / attack and scaling of gear and effect of power creep in the game hit directly Tankers.

Every tanker has the same soft-caps to resistance and defense, and can add plenty of that plus recharge.  This just shows some of the baseline survival for a barely-enhanced Tank just standing there.  In the end their built in weaknesses (like debuff resistance, auras, mobility, etc) are what make the big differences in how they perform.

I was very surprised at how squishy my first Radiation Tank was, for so long, until I got into the forums to find some builds and consolidated a lot of inf from a bunch of toons to buy a whole bunch of uniques and sets and now it does quite well. 

A tank will last MUCH longer with 7 more heroes attacking everything they see.

[Gobbledigook]

It seems interesting that the top performing set in your test all have +defence in them and the resist sets fair the worst. 

[Bill Z Bubba]

8 minutes ago, Gobbledegook said:

It seems interesting that the top performing set in your test all have +defence in them and the resist sets fair the worst. 

Monty Python showed us the importance of not being seen. Same philosophy here. Not getting hit is better.

[Haijinx]

Think people need to chill on the "buff" ideas.

 

It wouldn't take many IOs to put the lagging sets into the immortal godlings category.  

 

The only buff really needed is some sort of KB fix for fire and dark. 

 

Stone could stand a reimagining maybe, without granite its pitiful, with granite its OP but also pitiful. 

 

Reworking T9s would also be nice since they almost are all useless.

 

 

 

 

[Werner]

58 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Think people need to chill on the "buff" ideas.

 

It wouldn't take many IOs to put the lagging sets into the immortal godlings category.  

I believe that every call for buffs has been a joke made by people who know how to make those sets into immortal godlings. I know that I at least was attempting to jokingly make the opposite point. I was praising the test while also cautioning against drawing overly-broad conclusions, such as thinking the mentioned sets needed buffs. I guess that wasn't as clear as I'd hoped.

[BZRKR]

3 minutes ago, Werner said:

I believe that every call for buffs has been a joke made by people who know how to make those sets into immortal godlings. I know that I at least was attempting to jokingly make the opposite point. I was praising the test while also cautioning against drawing overly-broad conclusions, such as thinking the mentioned sets needed buffs. I guess that wasn't as clear as I'd hoped.

The Bearded King has spoken!

Through the use of smileys and fun colors, I had hoped that my joke would have been more obvious. I'll try to do better next time.

[Hyperstrike]

3 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

That massive deviation is surprising to me for SR. But then if I try to remember the old days, there were a lot of jokes about how SR was either immortal or dead.

Super Reflexes
----------------------------------------
"I'm in my happy place!"
"I'm in my happy place!"

"I'm in my happy place!"
*FACEPLANT*

[Hyperstrike]

2 hours ago, Solarverse said:

I knew that would be the case. I have an Ice/Ice who is my second most played Tank and even though I have probably one of the best possible builds one can have for an Ice/Ice Tank, the holes in the Resist Department are always the major downfall. Sadly, if one NPC in a mob gets a lucky roll of the dice and penetrates your defense, it's almost as if they all get that same lucky roll and they all hit you at once...and you can only hope your Resist to live up to the challenge.

I refer to the phenomenon as "eggshelling".

Nice tough exterior.
But once cracked...

[Hyperstrike]

4 hours ago, Werner said:

Even if not 100%, Super Reflexes has very high base values, so the 2.48% additional enhancement provides 0.64% defense. It still sounds small, but it's taking us from 40.56% defense to 41.20% defense, and we're approaching the soft cap, where marginal improvements have an exaggerated impact. At 40.56% defense, an even level minion is hitting us 9.44% of the time. At 41.20% defense, that same minion is hitting us 8.80% of the time. The lieutenants and bosses scale proportionally. You could call that 100% - 8.80%/9.44% = 6.8% less damage taken, or perhaps 9.44%/8.80% - 100% = 7.3% more damage mitigation, depending on our definition of mitigation. Not huge, not insignificant, it's a bit better. But in the real world, where I would hope that even people playing with SOs have pushed themselves over 45% with pool powers, the extra defense from IOs would provide no extra mitigation outside of incarnate content.

It really depends.  At low/no Defense, the difference is negligble.
On something like SR, it's going to be more significant, as every point of Defense is worth more than the last.  And you have multiple defensive armors chipping in the fractionals here and there.

[Hyperstrike]

2 hours ago, Yerg said:

... and you have a Tank with no real holes and is nearly unkillable. I almost said Is unkillable... but you may occasionally see the floor like any Tank does, once in a blue moon. \

Yeah. That's the thing that always bugged me about some people claiming to be "unkillable".

EVERYTHING in this game is killable.

Yet, every now and again, I get someone "But no!  Because I KNOW!  I've done X, Y, Z, etc!  And none of them killed me!"

 

[Hyperstrike]

BUFF BUFFS!

[Troo]

What no Regen?!

 

looks into special future seeing mirror (oh okay we're not there yet) 

[Haijinx]

3 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

That massive deviation is surprising to me for SR. But then if I try to remember the old days, there were a lot of jokes about how SR was either immortal or dead.

This SO version isn't rocking 70% S/L resist though.