That is Why You Fail

[Gavric]

39 minutes ago, Piecemeal said:

This fight calls enemies that already exist to rush the stage - therefore, if you eliminate the majority of the ravers before Raverobber, he doesn't have (m)any friends to call.

They can be controlled. That's why their damage isn't spectacular. A plant controller with Seeds basically did away with them. Someone with bonfire is a life-saver. Designing content to be solo'ed is an unrewarding prospect - I've built most of this with teams in mind, to give tanks, controllers, and dominators more things to do.

 

I disagree with your take on content design.  Certainly, there should be team aspects in an MMO.  However, not everyone has the room, social aptitude, gameplay aptitude, or desire to play in groups.  Most missions should be solo-able, with certain missions being designated as team-oriented.  The original game actually does this well, with disclaimers in some mission text.  The notoriety system provides the ability to scale difficulty for teams.  The tactical changes I recommended would make solo or team play more interesting.

[Alchemystic]

5 minutes ago, Gavric said:

One would be absolutely wrong, and should go about one's business.

 

"Get help making new content"

So did you volunteer or nah

 

 

Edited November 26, 2020 by Tyrannical

[Piecemeal]

15 minutes ago, Ukase said:

lol, I think the problem is that with the new patch - many teams now are all blasters. 

I'm not sure what you mean by the part I put in bold. Unrewarding for who? you, as the designer, or us, as the players? Jack Emmert, the original dev, made everything with teaming in mind. I never agreed with that, because teaming is more often that not a crap shoot. When you find a good core group of folks that beat the odds (which you wouldn't find without teaming) it becomes more enjoyable. But sifting through PUG after PUG to find that core group (or SG)...that's not fun at all. And even when you do find them, not everyone is available at the same time on a routine basis. This is why all content should be made without teaming or soloing in mind. How's that done? Beats me! I just hate to see content geared towards teams. Not everyone is a social butterfly. Is it odd that I found doing it solo more fun than on a team? Probably, lol. 

 

I mean to say that gearing a mission to solo play creates lackluster experiences for teams - there's a bit of a fine like to walk here. A geared blaster trivializes many things. A solo controller as the basis of balance in mission experience would be... well... just play a Mind/Rad controller solo and then design a mission for that. LOL.

[Gavric]

42 minutes ago, Piecemeal said:

There are things beyond mortal comprehension that seem to defy logic when the compiler goes to town.

I regret and recant my statement.  I was speaking from 20 years in IT, and did so with hubris.  You are absolutely correct, sir.  There is a difference between pushing a patch you know has holes, and the patch going sideways on a production server.

 

Usually, we repeal those bad patches as soon as we know.  However, this one is so big and impacts so many systems...

 

I, a mere mortal, bow to you and apologize for speaking with ignorance.

[Piecemeal]

Just now, Gavric said:

I regret and recant my statement.  I was speaking from 20 years in IT, and did so with hubris.  You are absolutely correct, sir.  There is a difference between pushing a patch you know has holes, and the patch going sideways on a production server.

 

Usually, we repeal those bad patches as soon as we know.  However, this one is so big and impacts so many systems...

 

I, a mere mortal, bow to you and apologize for speaking with ignorance.

More to the point it looks like I either had a cumulative iterative error, or I whoopsie-rolled-back the changes to a bobo spawndef version.

[Gavric]

36 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

It’s not broken.

 

Blasters are glass cannons with a mix of ranged and melee attacks. The focus is range, sure, but almost all Blaster secondary sets have a melee component.

 

If you want something purely ranged, other ATs are available, or you can skip the melee powers.

Sorry buddy, but this is over the line.

 

You are more than welcome to provide your critique, but you you aren’t free to make snide comments about minor bugs in content that was developed for free by volunteers over hundreds of hours, especially if you didn’t contribute to the testing process.

You and I have very different ideas of what constitutes broken.  We could have a rather rousing back-and-forth over how broken the game is.  I wouldn't mind the conversation.  I will, however, stand by my statement until that day.

 

My comment was not snide, as it was a simple statement of procedure and not derogatory, devious, or mocking.  As it was an ignorant and somewhat arrogant statement, I have already apologized to Piecemeal.  I did not do it at the behest of your feelings, which are obviously riled.  I think you read more into it than is there.

 

As previously acknowledged, I do not know the Homecoming team or their positions and functions.  I greatly respect the work you do that goes into maintaining this game for free.  I have enjoyed playing the game.  You are all deserving of praise and appreciation for what you're doing.  But you're not perfect, and sometimes people need to know what's wrong.

 

I have no expectations regarding what I'm writing.  Take it or leave it.

[Gavric]

33 minutes ago, Monos King said:

I think your opening reasoning is very correct and your criticisms are to be considered, even if I disagree. But this comment right here - you'd be better off not making. You must not realize how absurdly wrong note it is.

 

Think about why, at least from your perspective, that might be. Realize that what you just said was not criticism, it was contempt.

Contempt is a feeling.  If you get contempt from my black and white text, that is on you.  It's just a statement, made without sneer or derisive tone.  Contempt is in your head.

[Monos King]

5 minutes ago, Gavric said:

Contempt is a feeling.  If you get contempt from my black and white text, that is on you.  It's just a statement, made without sneer or derisive tone.  Contempt is in your head.

Don't state the obvious and frame it as a rebuke. Contempt, as with all feelings, are captured through interpretation. And there is a lot of reason to interpret contempt through what you said. Lead of which, is how you expressed that the volunteer development team with limited time and hours "isn't doing well to release content". There was nothing constructive in that sentiment. Do you think that you offering that opinion without feedback to the internal process is criticism? You are simply lampooning them for factors outside of their control.

 

I say this for the sake of your good and well criticism being further acknowledged. Regardless of how you feel, your comment was not useful, nor something any developers so limited would like to hear. You hurt your chances.

Edited November 26, 2020 by Monos King

[RubyRed]

3 minutes ago, Gavric said:

It's just a statement, made without sneer or derisive tone.  Contempt is in your head.

No, it's really not. Constructive criticism is one thing, but when you lead in with judgments like "X is terrible/bad/a mess" you set a certain tone for your post that can be inferred. TBH, I'm impressed that Piecemeal responded so civilly to your post after you basically trashed what was likely hundreds of hours of difficult work.

 

You do actually have a lot of valuable feedback in your post, and not entirely new. You might want to check the feedback on the beta forums, especially on the story arc, since a lot of it was already said. It would have upset fewer people if you stuck to the feedback and avoided the judgmental parts. That's entirely up to you how you wish to engage, though.

[Alchemystic]

16 minutes ago, Monos King said:

Don't state the obvious and frame it as a rebuke. Contempt, as with all feelings, are captured through interpretation. And there is a lot of reason to interpret contempt through what you said. Lead of which, is how you expressed that the volunteer development team with limited time and hours "isn't doing well to release content". There was nothing constructive in that sentiment. Do you think that you offering that opinion without feedback to the internal process is criticism? You are simply lampooning them for factors outside of their control.

 

I say this for the sake of your good and well criticism being further acknowledged. Regardless of how you feel, your comment was not useful, nor something any developers so limited would like to hear. You hurt your chances.

 

My guess he's not looking for change, he's looking for validation.

This whole thread is just a soapbox 🙄

 

 

Edited November 26, 2020 by Tyrannical

[Gavric]

11 minutes ago, Monos King said:

Don't state the obvious and frame it as a rebuke. Contempt, as with all feelings, are captured through interpretation. And there is a lot of reason to interpret contempt through what you said. Lead of which, is how you expressed that the volunteer development team with limited time and hours "isn't doing well to release content". There was nothing constructive in that sentiment. Do you think that you offering that opinion without feedback to the internal process is criticism? You are simply lampooning them for factors outside of their control.

 

I say this for the sake of your good and well criticism being further acknowledged. Regardless of how you feel, your comment was not useful, nor something any developers so limited would like to hear. You hurt your chances.

Again, this is all in your head.  It was not contempt.  It was not a rebuke.  I tried to express that there is no contempt.

 

My initial post is constructive criticism.  My reply to Shadeknight was not part of that constructive criticism.  That final line was a summation of the topic, which is what was not clear to them in the first place.  You are conflating two different conversations and choosing to be upset over your own perceptions.

 

I'm not mad at anyone.  I'm not attacking anyone.  I'm sharing my perspective.  I'm trying to keep my tone rational and emotionless.

[Dragon Crush]

1 hour ago, Monos King said:

1 hour ago, Gavric said:

Honestly, I think they have failed--generally--at providing new and valuable content.

I think your opening reasoning is very correct and your criticisms are to be considered, even if I disagree. But this comment right here - you'd be better off not making. You must not realize how absurdly wrong note it is.

 

Bringing this up since @Gavric admitted they didn't play live, so they quite literally don't know all that the HC devs have added (and looking at edited first post, they do a slightly better job of acknowledging this).

 

And to add to the current back and forth, communication requires more than one person, and if someone keeps mis-interpreting your intent, then you need to make that intent more clear. Saying something without malice, and having others realize you don't intend malice are two separate things. And I know that can be a struggle, which can be rather frustrating even more so for people who may not be neurotypical, but it's important to be reminded from time to time.

[Monos King]

29 minutes ago, Gavric said:

You are conflating two different conversations and choosing to be upset over your own perceptions.

Interesting strategy, separating your summation from your thesis. Listen. 

 

29 minutes ago, Gavric said:

My initial post is constructive criticism.

Your initial post, as Ruby so kindly iterated, is littered with dissent. This is not a problem in of itself. Your proceeding refusals to acknowledge the constraints of the developers with comments like what you ended with, and your disrespect of them with comments like 

 

1 hour ago, Gavric said:

I have already apologized to Piecemeal.  I did not do it at the behest of your feelings, which are obviously riled.  I think you read more into it than is there.

are what I am informing you of, are bad, and construe contempt whether you intended it or not. And your obvious rebuke to my statement that you made a contemptuous comment, was obviously a rebuke. I believe that you are conflating two different conversations. I am not angry - you could say that's in your head. But I already stated that your feedback element was perfectly fine.

 

You are more than welcome to deny, to defy, to dismiss and to decry what I have said. But I'll put it very simply, and repeat myself. 

 

1 hour ago, Gavric said:

My intent was a response to the devs, not the community, so I referenced my ticket.  I acknowledge that the subject line is confrontational.  It's a quote from Yoda, so I thought it would be seen with some levity.  Honestly, I think they have failed--generally--at providing new and valuable content.

This comment right here - you'd be better off not making. You're barking up the wrong tree with this kind of comment. Here's the advice: Don't do it.

 

Take it or leave it.

Edited November 26, 2020 by Monos King

[Greycat]

24 minutes ago, Tyrannical said:

My guess he's not looking for change, he's looking for validation.

This whole thread is just a soapbox 🙄

Eh, I've just been PMing back and forth with him a bit, and with the little bit I've seen there... nah, I'd call it genuine, not a "look at me" gesture. (Assuming the him, there, sorry if that's wrong.) Yeah, there are definitely some - let's say bad wording choices adding color there he's not aiming for, but after chatting with him I do believe he's trying to be helpful and constructive with what he's saying, not throwing shade for the sake of it or for attention.

[Monos King]

5 minutes ago, Greycat said:

Yeah, there are definitely some - let's say bad wording choices adding color there he's not aiming for, but after chatting with him I do believe he's trying to be helpful and constructive with what he's saying, not throwing shade for the sake of it or for attention.

@Tyrannical I am inclined to agree with Grey on that matter. I don't think he's a troll or anything. Since I've said what I needed to say here, I'll be bowing out now.

 

Mercenary proposals are calling to me.

[Piecemeal]

I want to note that I am not taking this feedback personally, and while the delivery has been rather... blunt, it *WILL* help me craft the part 2 arc better. And the next set(s) of arcs as well.

 

If you want results from me, just remember I am reasonable so long as you are 🙂

 

And we're all learning this stuff together.

[Greycat]

4 minutes ago, Piecemeal said:

And we're all learning this stuff together.

I'm not! Who are you again? What's this place? What's an MMO? Why is this little character on my screen dressed so funny?

[Dragon Crush]

1 minute ago, Greycat said:

6 minutes ago, Piecemeal said:

And we're all learning this stuff together.

I'm not! Who are you again? What's this place? What's an MMO? Why is this little character on my screen dressed so funny?

 

The learning might be going backwards for a few of us.

 

That thing on your screen is called is called a Kheldian, and no one's really sure why they look so funny but the leading theory is someone had a seafood platter for lunch.

[Alchemystic]

10 minutes ago, Monos King said:

@Tyrannical I am inclined to agree with Grey on that matter. I don't think he's a troll or anything. Since I've said what I needed to say here, I'll be bowing out now.

 

Mercenary proposals are calling to me.

You don't have to be a troll to make a big stink over something instead of being constructive.

[Slithershot]

I feel like I've just watched someone throw a tantrum, deny they threw a tantrum, and then get mad when someone calls them out for obviously throwing a tantrum.

 

There's a fine line between ranting and constructive criticism (of which this thread has a healthy amount of both). I'd now like to share a graph of how this thread has walked that line. 

 

Edited November 26, 2020 by Pizzamurai

[Darmian]

My only reaction so far is... @Piecemeal, I want your tool kit!  Gah!

 

(Bangs head on KB and stares forlornly at AE screen.)

Edited November 26, 2020 by Darmian

[Draeth Darkstar]

7 hours ago, Gavric said:

Your homebrew power sets are bad.

Sonic Manipulation, "lets you control sonic forces to manipulate your foes, inflict damage and protect yourself."  Except that it doesn't.  One ranged hold, one absorb and resist, a debuff, and a cone stun/knockback are not protection or manipulation for a Blaster.  It's a potpourri of power types that add up to very little.  Four of nine powers are melee attacks that put the squishy Blaster in harm's way.  Someone already pointed out that the Blaster secondaries are chock full of melee.  They shouldn't be.  You should be improving the game.  Make a sonic secondary with some real teeth to it, that allows for some defense.  We don't need a sonic copy of the same old power pools.  Why not make something truly new and interesting: a Blaster secondary that fits the character theme and actually provides some defense?  If you're going to make new content, do it and get it right.

 

 

This reads like you've never played a Blaster before, just so you know. My biggest complaint in Beta about Sonic was (and remains) that it even bothered to have a crappy Ranged hold when another heavy hitter melee attack would've fit the set better. Blasters aren't Sentinels and they're not Controllers. A well geared Blaster should be smashing bosses in melee with glee. If Sonic has an identity crisis it's that it lacks good enough damage to warrant the melee play style it fits. It kind of turned out like a poor man's Electric Manipulation, which is unfortunate both in that ElM has its own flaws in a crappy secondary effect and near-zero AoE, and that there's no real mechanical draw to play it.

Edited November 26, 2020 by Draeth Darkstar

[Moka]

If you're not counting the i24 powersets Paragon had already completed such as bio armor and martial combat, you're looking at eight or nine new powersets since live developed by the SCORE/HC team. (I don't remember if tactical arrow was i24 or not). I however am aware electric affinity was the first one that was completely handmade and not leftover code by Paragon, but that's a damn good powerset. There's also the addition of a new zone - Kallisti Wharf. 

 

Homecoming is a complete volunteer project which means the issues are going to be very underwhelming in comparison to a full blown Paragon issue. The writing versus Paragon with the released arcs so far I would say is better than a lot of old City content - especially from the Cryptic days. The new vigilante story is really good. 

 

Anywho, I've so far found the arc pretty alright. I'm a little floored by what has been possible all along with the mission editor and what dynamic choices can be made with it.

 

And unfortunately, one of City of Heroes inherit problems is soloing isn't always pretty. It's a problem Homecoming didn't personally contribute to as much as the game itself has. The Signature Story arcs were generally pretty soloable, however, so they were starting to learn. I do have to ask how you're going about playing your archetype in the mission arc? If you're ranged, are you moving out of the enemies melee range? I'm a bit of a jouster when I play blasters sometimes. 

[Solarverse]

2 hours ago, Jimmy said:

It’s not broken.

 

Blasters are glass cannons with a mix of ranged and melee attacks. The focus is range, sure, but almost all Blaster secondary sets have a melee component.

 

If you want something purely ranged, other ATs are available, or you can skip the melee powers.

Sorry buddy, but this is over the line.

 

You are more than welcome to provide your critique, but you you aren’t free to make snide comments about minor bugs in content that was developed for free by volunteers over hundreds of hours, especially if you didn’t contribute to the testing process.

 

[Outrider_01]

10 hours ago, Gavric said:

I never played CoH when it was a supported, retail game.  I am unfamiliar with the game as it was,

You invalidate a lot of your assumptions, as you don't know what the game was like compared to what you think it should be.  HC is more traditional, its like an old home that got renovated; shiny paint job and maybe the living room got adjoined to the kitchen which now has an island counter; but its still the same house.

10 hours ago, Gavric said:

The original developers were mad geniuses that implemented some amazing things and insanely stupid things.  They seem to have been highly gifted and clueless.  Had I experienced the game while it was retail, I would have quit playing.  It's not worth a premium subscription rate.

Yeah, no.  Subscription is a better payment method for one simple reason; F2P has less content which caters to the common denominator looking for a quick match.  Subscription games turned to F2P, but it attracted more unwilling to pay previously but now is playing older content everyone else enjoyed years later; Everyquest comes to mind which turned 22 in April next year

 

And wow, just discovered there are even older MMORPGs.  They are not active; but some of them was up to as much as $6.00 an hour!  Granted this is Wikipedia based facts; but considering some of it says AoL online service and they used to offer as low as 50 hours free to eventually 1000 hours with DVD installation; I could believe it.  Everquest was $15 a month, thats 50 cents a day; damn cheap.

10 hours ago, Gavric said:

Make a sonic secondary with some real teeth to it, that allows for some defense. 

You are looking for Sentinels.  Shorter range blasts, resist and defense secondary.  Blasters are damage/damage (basically WTFPWN/L2PNewb) with range being their primary form and much harder hitting melee attacks; their weakness being no defense or status protection.  And like they say, best defense is an over whelming offense;  you keep beating them down until you face plant and then get back up to be the crap out of them again.

10 hours ago, Gavric said:

Why does a blaster have to be a glass canon?  Why do you want your glass canon in melee range?  Your points are conflicting.

Glass cannon doesn't mean range; it means fragile as hell and highly dangerous.  Right chemicals in a glass jar, BOOM!  Flying fragments ever where; doesn't mean it has to shoot.

7 hours ago, Gavric said:

I have seen the power sets.  This is not about the broken parts of the original game; that's a much longer post.  This is about what the current development team is doing poorly.  Tradition is not the goal.  Improvement is the goal.  They shouldn't be making poor choices because that's what their forebears did.

You obviously, as stated have not played the game in retail. 

 

In 2004 at release; /Devices was not what it is today.  Toxic grenade was just a damage less immobilize that slowed down the npc, caltrops didn't change, Taser was a piss ant melee range stun that did like 20 damage and now it is 20 range that hits like a tier 2 attack, Targeting drone was just +tohit with no sniper bonus damage (which was eventually ONLY to Assault Rifle as it lacked Aim) but wow does TD look impressive now, smoke grenade didn't change except for a nerf at some point as it was too powerful, Cloaking Device was only stealth (+smoke grenade = invise then toebomb) and now it offers some impressive bonuses (no OP, just far more then 2004), Trip Mine and Time bomb haven't change but Gun Turret was an immobile pet which now hovers.  

 

Devices is vastly improved from ye olde days of yore.

 

HC team didn't fail, they rebuilt onto the house and expanded it, adding another floor and turning the basement into bowling alley.

 

5 hours ago, Doomguide2005 said:

/Fire has exactly 1 ranged attack.  The remainder are PBAoEs or melee.

 

My Elec/Fire lives to be in melee.  7 powers are melee range in his build.

Yeah, I said half their powers had melee; not half the power sets had melee.  You say range, you mean Ring of Fire ?  Lots of ranged immoblize in the T1.