Against my Better Judgement (Ice Melee)

[Vanden]

4 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

Good advice. Mind directing me to a chart that shows the scales and I can take it from there. thanks for the head's up, man.

Unfortunately I don't know of such a chart. If I want to use hard mez numbers I always use the "info for a level 1 Dominator using the power" method I outlined. If I'm not in front of the game when I'm posting, then I'll just be vague. 😛

[Solarverse]

2 minutes ago, Vanden said:

Unfortunately I don't know of such a chart. If I want to use hard mez numbers I always use the "info for a level 1 Dominator using the power" method I outlined. If I'm not in front of the game when I'm posting, then I'll just be vague. 😛

Hahaha, Roger that.

[Yomo Kimyata]

I have very little experience with fire melee or ice melee for the same reason -- I don't like elemental swords.  So I can't tell you why ice melee suddenly needs a boost in order to keep it within a standard deviation of performance to an "average" set.  Make your case!

[Riverdusk]

Just like to say I find it amusing that this thread on ICE melee is now labeled by the forum as "hot".  But I'm easily amused.

[Solarverse]

26 minutes ago, Vanden said:

Unfortunately I don't know of such a chart. If I want to use hard mez numbers I always use the "info for a level 1 Dominator using the power" method I outlined. If I'm not in front of the game when I'm posting, then I'll just be vague. 😛

So what about when you are halving a mez though? For example, I am halving stun durations not just based on the mez itself or the AT, but also due to the Cold Rule idea of not overpowering a set when it already has a component that gives it (although extremely slight) damage mitigation to it. That in itself is kind of throwing off using the modifiers for mez...for example, the Tank uses the .800 modifiers, but since I am pulling the mez time from the same archetype, I am actually just taking those numbers and cutting them in half without applying the .800 modifier. That make any sense? And can that even be done or are these modifers hard coded in to the AT and there is no way to cut a duration of an Immoblize in half for a specific powerset?

[Solarverse]

9 minutes ago, Riverdusk said:

Just like to say I find it amusing that this thread on ICE melee is now labeled by the forum as "hot".  But I'm easily amused.

What the hell, it's barely two pages long and only very few people have posted on it. Makes me wonder what the criteria for "Hot" is, lol.

[Vanden]

7 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

So what about when you are halving a mez though? For example, I am halving stun durations not just based on the mez itself or the AT, but also due to the Cold Rule idea of not overpowering a set when it already has a component that gives it (although extremely slight) damage mitigation to it. That in itself is kind of throwing off using the modifiers for mez...for example, the Tank uses the .800 modifiers, but since I am pulling the mez time from the same archetype, I am actually just taking those numbers and cutting them in half without applying the .800 modifier. That make any sense? And can that even be done or are these modifers hard coded in to the AT and there is no way to cut a duration of an Immoblize in half for a specific powerset?

Well there's no "rule" for how long a mez should last, like there is for damage in the standard damage formula.  If you have a reason to want to halve a mez, you just say that reason. The scale stuff I was talking about was just for how you present that info. I.e., you want a mez that's half the duration of Barrage's, so instead of saying "x second immobilize", you say scale 3 immobilize. (Barrage is a scale 6 stun.)

[Solarverse]

Just now, Vanden said:

Well there's no "rule" for how long a mez should last, like there is for damage in the standard damage formula.  If you have a reason to want to halve a mez, you just say that reason. The scale stuff I was talking about was just for how you present that info. I.e., you want a mez that's half the duration of Barrage's, so instead of saying "x second immobilize", you say scale 3 immobilize. (Barrage is a scale 6 stun.)

Gotcha, okay, thanks.

[Haijinx]

Ice melee is probably one that could stand looked at.  

 

People generally consider it underperforming.  Might need to see how much of that is real vs. Percieved etc.

 

 

 

[Haijinx]

46 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

I have very little experience with fire melee or ice melee for the same reason -- I don't like elemental swords.  So I can't tell you why ice melee suddenly needs a boost in order to keep it within a standard deviation of performance to an "average" set.  Make your case!

Interestingly both on live and here the devs suggested alternatives to swords but the swords keep sticking around 

...

[Solarverse]

27 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Interestingly both on live and here the devs suggested alternatives to swords but the swords keep sticking around 

...

Hmmm, not sure how I would feel about that since I have kind of gotten used to my Sword. Maybe some optional Ice Weapons to choose from?

[Haijinx]

1 minute ago, Solarverse said:

Hmmm, not sure how I would feel about that since I have kind of gotten used to my Sword. Maybe some optional Ice Weapons to choose from?

the way it always sounded was an alternative animation type deal.  

[Solarverse]

Just now, Haijinx said:

the way it always sounded was an alternative animation type deal.  

I'd be on board with that.

[Solarverse]

1 hour ago, Vanden said:

Well there's no "rule" for how long a mez should last, like there is for damage in the standard damage formula.  If you have a reason to want to halve a mez, you just say that reason. The scale stuff I was talking about was just for how you present that info. I.e., you want a mez that's half the duration of Barrage's, so instead of saying "x second immobilize", you say scale 3 immobilize. (Barrage is a scale 6 stun.)

There ya go, Vanden. I cleaned it up there. Honestly, I figured that would be more confusing to readers than if I just gave the actual values because now they have to do their own math, lol. But I get what you are saying, the duration of mez can be different for each AT, so that keeps it simple for anyone willing to do the math.

[SwitchFade]

9 hours ago, Solarverse said:

I am very reluctant to do this because honestly, the Suggestion Forums has a way of bringing out the worst in some of the best people on these boards. I have seen many of you post since the beginning of this game and I am fond of a great deal of you...however, these Suggestion Forums have been known to turn you in to something that you are not. So please bare this in mind and be nice. I swore the Suggestion Forums off, so I am taking a much larger chance posting this than I am comfortable with...however, I am compelled to do so in order to get a feel of the other gamers where Ice is concerned. Having said that...

 

The History

 

My favorite combinations for my Tankers has always been [Willpower/Energy - Ice Armor/Ice Melee - Anything/Stone - Invulnerability/Super Strength] and in that order. If you ever took a look at my Tanks, you would see that they very seldom deviate from this...and if I do create a character that goes outside of this, that character usually doesn't last very long. However, the only thing that has kept Ice from being in my number one spot, is the absurdity of some of the powers and how they aren't really all that pertinent to a Tank. For theme, I absolutely love Ice/Ice as a Tank, but the reality is that there is only one ability that really helps give Tanks crowd control and damage mitigation.

 

I know what you are thinking, you are thinking, "But Solarverse, what about all that -recharge!"

 

You mean all 8% of it? Not really a big help since you only have one power that is really somewhat useful with the -recharge and that is Frost, which is a short range (but now wide...thank God) cone and we are still only looking at -8% Recharge/Slow. Frozen Aura does not do this, in fact it is arguably the worst power in the set and it's a Tier 9 Power that has an AoE Sleep, which is broken immediately. It is completely useless outside of an AoE Cold Damage type.

 

All of the rest of the powers are straight forward single target damage and that -8% Recahrge/Slow is hardly worth getting all excited about. I have been playing Ice/Ice Tanks since the very beginning and after all these years, my opinion of the set has not been changed. The two best things to happen to Ice Melee since 2004 is when they added damage to Frozen Aura (which should have been done straight out of the gate) and the extra damage to Frost....which was desperately needed.

 

However, regardless if you agree or disagree I ask that you at least take a bit of time to check out my proposition for the set and kind of ignore my personal biased views on this set. I am going to love this set no matter how horrible the set is...I loved it when it first came out, back when it was pure garbage, and I still love it now. However, I think it needs some attention if it is ever going to be (which it has never been) on par with other sets. I don't expect this set to ever be the best, but I would like if it were at least ranked among the top 10 for once in its life.

 

THE COLD RULE!!!

 

One thing to keep in mind here is the COLD RULE (something I made up...sorry for the lame term) which is this: Any power that has a -8% Recharge/Slow must be accounted for when making any changes to a power. For an example, if you add a chance for Mitigation to a power that already has a -8% Recharge/Slow, that Mitigation affect must be no greater than half of what the duration or percentage of chance would be for similar mitigation tools of other sets.

 

 

 

ICE MELEE

Anything written in regular blue print are edits made after considering constructive feedback.

All damage scales are pulled from base Tank values at level 50

 

•   FROZEN FISTS: Add a 10% Chance for a Mag 2 Scale 3 Stun (half the duration of EM Barrage since COLD RULE applies) to target, as the 1-2 combination of sudden cold gives its victim brain freeze, stunning your target. Increase recharge from 3 to 4 seconds and increase base damage from 52.83 to 74.5 (37.25 x2 Smashing/Cold Damage) to adjust for increased recharge and taking in to consideration the animation time.
•   ICE SWORD: Add a 25% chance for a Mag 2 Scale 6 Immobilize on target (half the duration of Spine's Lunge, half the chance as Stone Mallet) as the hit from Ice Sword can create large Icicles on the ground surrounding your target. (Uses the same animation as Chilblain)
•   FROST: Reduce cast time from 2.27 seconds to 1.83 seconds (matches Swoop from Battle Axe) and add a 35% chance for a Mag 2 Scale 7.45 Immobilize on all targets hit (half of the duration of Spine Burst of the same tier, half the chance as Swoop from Battle Axe) as the quick formation of Ice Crystals can accumulate to shackle your targets in Ice.
•   TAUNT: Stays the same, no change.
•   BUILD UP: Stays the same, no change.
•   ICE PATCH: Apply the same radius percentage bonuses to Ice Patch that Tanks get for other AoEs. Not sure why this was left out as a Tank's primary function over Brutes is to better mitigate damage. I believe this was simply overlooked. Also reduce cast time from 3.47 seconds to 3.1 seconds (matches Ice Slick cast times from Controller/Dominator sets). It has been argued that this is not enough, however, I feel the Devs would never allow a Tank to drop an Ice Patch faster than a Dominator or Controller can. Having said that, if a Dev decided that I was wrong, I would not be disappointed in the slightest.
•   FREEZING TOUCH: Stays the same.
•   GREATER ICE SWORD: Change the animation to that of Greater Psi Blade, change cast time from 2.33 seconds to 2.5 seconds to match GPB and add a 35% chance for Knock Down (less than half the chance for Heavy Mallet) which applies the COLD RULE and keeps the chance of mitigation in line with that rule. Increase Recharge from 10 Seconds to 15 seconds and add the values of Greater Psi Blade's damage scale. This increases the damage of Greater Ice Sword from 103.55 base value to 218.71 base value.
•   FROZEN AURA: In addition to the 100% chance for Sleep, add a 100% Chance for a Mag 2 11.175 Scale Immobilize to all targets hit (half of Chilblain in the Epic Pool Power for Tanks, but also ignores the COLD RULE due to there being no -8% Recharge associated with Frozen Aura) which will greatly help Tanks and other Melee classes with aggro control and situational control (I.E. Knock Back prevention, runner prevention) on teams, but does not interfere with solo play and the usefulness of Sleep. This Immobilize will not prevent Knock Down, but rather prevent Knock Back. Any target hit with a Knock Back, will Knock Down instead.

 

Conclusion

 

As you can see, a couple of powers were adjusted (nerfed) to match other sets while also giving more well deserved mitigation to Ice Melee for Tanks. I am not a huge fan of buffing anything in this game, I do not believe it is any big secret that I hate the power Creep that has been introduced to this game over the years. However, I also cannot stand when one powerset is far exceeded by others in the balance department and always has been. I don't ever expect Ice to be the #1 powerset for Tanks, but it would however be nice to see the set rise above the lower levels in which it has always been a dweller of and at least rise above those levels high enough to wave and say howdy to the others that didn't even know it existed.

/Jsoundsgood

 

See what I did there?!

 

On the seriouslies, sounds good.

 

Are you sure this is bold enough, though? Ice might need a bit more in addition to what you mentioned as it is showing it's design age...

[SwitchFade]

2 hours ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

I have very little experience with fire melee or ice melee for the same reason -- I don't like elemental swords.  So I can't tell you why ice melee suddenly needs a boost in order to keep it within a standard deviation of performance to an "average" set.  Make your case!

I, too, do not like the ele sword visuals. I'd be downtown with na alt animation.

[Solarverse]

5 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

/Jsoundsgood

 

See what I did there?!

 

On the seriouslies, sounds good.

First, thank you. I put a lot of thought in to this and then others in this thread helped guide the original post with their constructive ideas and comments. I am actually very thankful for their welcomed insight.

5 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

Are you sure this is bold enough, though? Ice might need a bit more in addition to what you mentioned as it is showing it's design age...

What did you have in mind exactly?

[macskull]

17 hours ago, Solarverse said:

I did some research before I even made this thread because I wanted to be sure I had as much information as possible for when people started to ask questions about the idea and I wanted to be prepared and educated enough to talk about it. Having said that, my research shows me that Ice Melee is in 12th place for Tanks, 20th place for Brutes (only trialing behind 2 sets for last place) 18th place for Srappers (which is second to last) and the Stalker version of Ice Melee is second to last, ranking in at 15th place out of 16. The class that uses the set the most are Tanks and according to the data, Ice Melee is far from being anywhere near (or even practically near) one of the best; or even remotely close to being the most used set.

You are operating under the flawed assumption that popularity = effectiveness. Empathy is by far the most popular Defender primary but it's also arguably the worst. When the first set of Homecoming character statistics were published in August 2019 the most popular Scrapper build was Claws/Regen - not because it's the best combination but because people wanted to be Wolverine. It's the same reason Invuln/SS is the most common Tanker build, or Mind/Psi is the most common Dominator build. On the opposite end of the spectrum, Stalkers are the least-popular non-epic AT but they are arguably the best melee AT if not the best AT behind Blasters.

 

That being said, I'll reiterate it again...

• Frozen Fists has absolutely abysmal DPA. It's got the worst DPA of any T1 power except Defensive Sweep (which is an AoE and is, like Parry or Divine Avalanche, more of a defensive power with a secondary effect of dealing damage). The truly bizarre thing about Frozen Fists is it's a power with a 3-second cooldown but deals damage consistent with a 4-second cooldown (scale 1 vice scale 0.84). This means realistically the only way to make Frozen Fists an attack you'd actually want to use is to give it an animation trim. Reducing its cast time from 1.33s to 1.07s changes its DPA from 47.04 to 58.47 (Scrapper numbers) which is a little more typical of T1 powers.
• Likewise, Greater Ice Sword's DPA is pretty bad. It's only marginally better than some AoEs in other sets and even Cross Punch - a pool power AoE - has higher DPA. Raising the recharge time is probably a non-starter so it's back to looking at animation times. It's 2.33s currently which gives a DPA of 52.63 (for reference Cross Punch is 54.71). Reducing animation time to 1.83s results in a DPA of 67.00 which is still low-ish but not as bad, or going for 1.67s gives a DPA of 73.42 which also seems reasonable.

[Solarverse]

35 minutes ago, macskull said:

You are operating under the flawed assumption that popularity = effectiveness. Empathy is by far the most popular Defender primary but it's also arguably the worst. When the first set of Homecoming character statistics were published in August 2019 the most popular Scrapper build was Claws/Regen - not because it's the best combination but because people wanted to be Wolverine. It's the same reason Invuln/SS is the most common Tanker build, or Mind/Psi is the most common Dominator build. On the opposite end of the spectrum, Stalkers are the least-popular non-epic AT but they are arguably the best melee AT if not the best AT behind Blasters.

 

That being said, I'll reiterate it again...

• Frozen Fists has absolutely abysmal DPA. It's got the worst DPA of any T1 power except Defensive Sweep (which is an AoE and is, like Parry or Divine Avalanche, more of a defensive power with a secondary effect of dealing damage). The truly bizarre thing about Frozen Fists is it's a power with a 3-second cooldown but deals damage consistent with a 4-second cooldown (scale 1 vice scale 0.84). This means realistically the only way to make Frozen Fists an attack you'd actually want to use is to give it an animation trim. Reducing its cast time from 1.33s to 1.07s changes its DPA from 47.04 to 58.47 (Scrapper numbers) which is a little more typical of T1 powers.
• Likewise, Greater Ice Sword's DPA is pretty bad. It's only marginally better than some AoEs in other sets and even Cross Punch - a pool power AoE - has higher DPA. Raising the recharge time is probably a non-starter so it's back to looking at animation times. It's 2.33s currently which gives a DPA of 52.63 (for reference Cross Punch is 54.71). Reducing animation time to 1.83s results in a DPA of 67.00 which is still low-ish but not as bad, or going for 1.67s gives a DPA of 73.42 which also seems reasonable.

That's easy then. We can give Frozen Fists the same animation and cast time as Stone Fist (it already shares the same damage) with the same recharge and call it a day.

 

Greater Ice Sword will do well under the suggested change and would hit like a truck.

 

Thoughts?

[Riverdusk]

14 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

That's easy then. We can give Frozen Fists the same animation and cast time as Stone Fist (it already shares the same damage) with the same recharge and call it a day.

 

 

Thoughts?

That'd work.  Stone fist's animation is a nice one and it'd still fit the power, just punching with ice instead of stone.

[Solarverse]

49 minutes ago, Riverdusk said:

That'd work.  Stone fist's animation is a nice one and it'd still fit the power, just punching with ice instead of stone.

OP has been adjusted to convey this.

[Parabola]

Totally on board for buffs to frozen fists and greater ice sword and a quicker firing ice patch. I'd leave the rest as they are personally. My only addition would be to request a minimal fx option for frozen fists as it really sticks out currently.

[Solarverse]

1 hour ago, parabola said:

Totally on board for buffs to frozen fists and greater ice sword and a quicker firing ice patch. I'd leave the rest as they are personally. My only addition would be to request a minimal fx option for frozen fists as it really sticks out currently.

I honestly wouldn't notice. My Tank is too big to even see it, lol.

[Generator]

On 12/6/2020 at 9:44 AM, macskull said:

• Likewise, Greater Ice Sword's DPA is pretty bad. It's only marginally better than some AoEs in other sets and even Cross Punch - a pool power AoE - has higher DPA. Raising the recharge time is probably a non-starter so it's back to looking at animation times. It's 2.33s currently which gives a DPA of 52.63 (for reference Cross Punch is 54.71). Reducing animation time to 1.83s results in a DPA of 67.00 which is still low-ish but not as bad, or going for 1.67s gives a DPA of 73.42 which also seems reasonable.

I know I've relayed this info before but I forget to who, so I'll tell this anecdote again.

 

I remember being very bored at work about 10y ago, so I sat there with an Excel spreadsheet and compared out the DPA values* of all of the "Heavy hitter" single-target attacks that Tankers had, so this compared GIS to things like SS's Knockout Blow, WM's Clobber, and so on.  I just remember that the findings were GIS was in last place by a mile (as expected); it was so far behind the pack that just to get into the median value, it would've needed a 90% boost to its damage.  If you shortened its animation giving it the shorter one that Icy Assault's Ice Slash got, it only needed... I forget, I want to say about +40% damage to get to median value.

 

*I'm assuming this was back when Red Tomax's site was still a thing, and I think I got my values from there, but take all of this with a grain of salt.

 

All of this is to say that I'd love Ice Melee to get some lovin'.  I'm working up an IM/IA Scrapper right now, and he's fun, but I'd love to have the problem of, "Ack, what am I taking out to put in a newly useful GIS?"  🙂

 

Later on,

Generator

[Greycat]

On 12/5/2020 at 1:08 PM, Solarverse said:

This is why I really need more input from you guys other than, "YOUR IDEA SUCKS!"

YOUR IDEA SUCKS! ... there. 🙂

 

(Honestly, not a lot of frozen fists, it's the one thing that sticks in my mind as "can't stand this" about the set, so any help there is welcome!)