Stamina or Health for endurance?

[xl8]

For the mathematically inclined...

Say I have only 4 slots to spread between stamina and health, which would produce the greater endurance return...

1 performance shifter chance for plus endurance in stamina, with panacea +hit points/endurance, Numina plus regen/recov, and a miracle plus recov in health...

Or...

1 performance shifter chance for plus endurance and an end mod in stamina, with panacea +hit points/endurance and a miracle plus recov in health?

 

And for bonus points, is the answer the same if the end mod gets enhanced to +5?

[Six-Six]

I'm not mathematically inclined, but on almost all of my toons...
2 slots in Stamina used for Perf Shifter End Mod and +Chance for End handles is good.
3-4 slots in health used for the following procs: Regenerative Tissue, Panacea, Miracle, Preventive Medicine, Numina. Yes, that was 5, but I usually have either or both of the latter ones slotted elsewhere, leaving just the first 3. 

 

Also, I have a buttload of alts, so not all of them can afford Panacea.

Edited January 2, 2021 by Six-Six

[Doomguide2005]

Without actually crunching numbers and strictly considering endurance:

Stamina 3 slotted: 2 endmod IOs boosted to +5, Performance Shifter +endurance proc.

Health: Miracle proc

 

And grab the Accolades for +max endurance.

 

Edit: out of your 2 options mentioned probably the second.

(And grab the Accolades)

Edited January 2, 2021 by Doomguide2005

[catsi563]

For me every character has 3 stamina with performance shifter and 3 health with numinas it works nicely for balance and effect

[Saikochoro]

It depends on the build. I will typically slot miracle, numinas, and panacea in health. I will always slot PS + end in stamina. If I then have additional slots or more recovery needs I will allocate an additional slot or two to stamina. 

Edited January 2, 2021 by Saikochoro

[SuperPlyx]

Be interested if someone does actually come along with the numbers crunched

[Vanden]

I crunched the numbers in the link in my sig, to answer exactly this sort of question.

 

For the question in the OP, if all you have to work with is Health, Stamina, and four slots (assuming you're not including the slots they come with), the best options are, in order:

 

Panacea Proc in Health > Performance Shifter Proc in Stamina = Miracle Unique > 50+5 End Mod IO in Stamina > Second 50+5 End Mod IO in Stamina > Numina Unique

Edited January 2, 2021 by Vanden

[nihilii]

If I got this right, at 100 end:

- panacea = +0.375 EPS

- perf shifter proc = +0.25 EPS

- miracle = +0.25 EPS

- first +5 end mod in Stamina = +0.22 EPS

- second +5 end mod in Stamina = +0.18 EPS

- numina = +0.17 EPS

 

Edit: messed up the +end procs by 25%

Edited January 2, 2021 by nihilii

[Doomguide2005]

3 hours ago, Saikochoro said:

It depends on the build. I will typically slot miracle, numinas, and panacea in health. I will always slot PS + end in stamina. If I then have additional slots or more recovery needs I will allocate an additional slot or two to stamina. 

This.

It's rarely the same from build to build and dependent on need, available slots.  The needs of my Empath who has RA and my Claws/SR scrapper looking for set bonuses as well as +recovery and +endurance make their choices turn out very differently.

[Outrider_01]

Pancreas, Performance shifter, sprinkle in endurance reduction, Incarnate powers with +recovery or Endurance Reduction, and spread out the unused slots.  You really only need just the base slots.  I cry seeing fire brutes with the Energy Mastery epic as they are adding more gas into the tank to continue the fight longer when a farm should be ended as quickly as possible and they could pick up an AoE instead of 2 +endurance passives.

[Snarky]

Another thing to keep in mind is the Procs are NOT nerfed by things that crush your End recovery.  They still Proc happily along....

[Yomo Kimyata]

This is so interesting to read what other people do, and stuff like this almost always leads to my playing around with new ideas.

 

When I started HC, I would 2-slot health (miracle proc and Numina proc) and 2-slot stamina (perf shifter proc and end mod) but now I usually use base slotting (panacea and perf shifter proc) and make up endurance other places.

[mcdoogss]

On 1/2/2021 at 5:14 PM, SuperPlyx said:

Be interested if someone does actually come along with the numbers crunched

This thread has some numbers: 

I used to always slot

 

health: panacea, miracle, numina

stamina: perf shifter proc + ps end mod

 

but I’ve since the new power transfer health proc came out i’ve dropped numina and added the hp proc to stamina as that is effectively much much more regeneration and i dont miss the minor recovery bonus numina gives.  Also if you can spare the slots the +absorb proc from preventative is also much more effective than the numina unique

Edited January 4, 2021 by mcdoogss

[EmmySky]

I do 2 each, numina proc and panacea proc in health and performance shifter proc and power transfer proc in stamina.

 

This is my base starting point for all my builds.  If I need more recovery or max end I look for set bonuses.  Incarnates help but I exemplar a lot so I dont want to depend on them.

[xl8]

On 1/2/2021 at 5:23 PM, nihilii said:

If I got this right, at 100 end:

- panacea = +0.375 EPS

- perf shifter proc = +0.25 EPS

- miracle = +0.25 EPS

- first +5 end mod in Stamina = +0.22 EPS

- second +5 end mod in Stamina = +0.18 EPS

- numina = +0.17 EPS

 

Edit: messed up the +end procs by 25%

So the answer is... panacea and miracle in health and perf shift chance for end and 1 other end mod in stamina.

And as a note to those wanting that +7.5 running speed at all levels, attuned does still contribute more end than numina.

 

For those interested, my standard slotting is panacea, miracle, preventative absorb in health and perf shift chance and perf shift end mod in stamina.

Edited January 4, 2021 by xl8

[xl8]

On 1/2/2021 at 5:23 PM, nihilii said:

If I got this right, at 100 end:

- panacea = +0.375 EPS

- perf shifter proc = +0.25 EPS

- miracle = +0.25 EPS

- first +5 end mod in Stamina = +0.22 EPS

- second +5 end mod in Stamina = +0.18 EPS

- numina = +0.17 EPS

 

Edit: messed up the +end procs by 25%

Just checking, have these been tested over long periods of time and these are the averages of those times?
Also, Mids (and pinch of salt taken) says base for stamina is 25% rec enhance, and 37.19% with end mod slotted at 50. Are your numbers in line with these?

[nihilii]

32 minutes ago, xl8 said:

Just checking, have these been tested over long periods of time and these are the averages of those times?
Also, Mids (and pinch of salt taken) says base for stamina is 25% rec enhance, and 37.19% with end mod slotted at 50. Are your numbers in line with these?

I used the Mids numbers because from memory they're correct on that stuff. Proc gain averaged out over time (you get one chance to tick every 10s, i.e. perf shifter is 25% chance for +10 end every 10 seconds ~= 25% chance for +1 end per second ~= +0.25 EPS).

 

Vanden's thread posted above is likely the best source.

[tidge]

Maximum Endurance determines "how much Endurance you get per tick". You can increase MaxEnd through accolades, set bonuses.

 

Recovery determines the "time between ticks". You will eventually hit the point of diminishing returns on Recovery; this point can be reached faster than you might expect, especially now that Stamina is inherent to all characters. You can increase Recovery by slotting Stamina, set bonuses, unique pieces, (temp) powers, SG crafted buffs, etc.

 

Endurance +End "occasional boosts" are rarer: Two IO pieces (Panacea, Performance Shifter) are the ones everyone focuses on. Some game effects will also refill the Endurance bar (e.g. Domination).

 

Endurance savings can come in two flavors: reducing the Endurance cost of individual; powers with Enhancements, certain powers, or getting global endurance discounts from IO set bonuses.

 

I am ignoring Incarnate powers for the purposes of this discussion.

 

(1) I will always slot the +End boosts:

Health: Panacea %+HP/End (default slot)

Stamina: Performance Shifter %+End (default slot)

 

(2) After those two, especially at high levels, the best investment for Recovery is in a second Stamina slot, using a 50+5. While leveling, I'll typically use an attuned Performance Shifter End Mod piece, just to not have to think about it.

 

(3) If that extra slot in Stamina isn't enough to help out with Endurance management (and often it is NOT enough while leveling, usually because I'm running too many toggles or using temp power attacks) I will invest a second slot in Health, and add the Miracle +Recovery unique there.

 

(4) That is pretty much where I stop (*1) because the time "between ticks" (from Recovery)  is far less noticeable than

• Slotting "Endurance Hogs" with an Endurance reducer IO (common or set piece)
• Waiting a tiny amount of time before mashing each button
• Turning off a toggle (usually Sprint or something like Ninja/Athletic Run)

Even without 'unlocking' the Prestige Sprints, you will have two to choose from... slot the second sprint with an Endurance reducer if you want Sprint on during combat. You can always toggle it with the other Sprint if you want that power to have a different configuration of Enhancements.

 

(4b) All other things being equal, if I have another slot available it goes to

• in Health it would be for the Preventive Medicine %Absorb piece.
• in Stamina it would be for the Power Transfer %+HP piece.

See discussion elsewhere for the relative effectiveness of Panacea v. Power Transfer +HP.

 

TL;DR: Generally, you will get a much bigger bang for your buck by increasing MaxEnd and decreasing Endurance costs.

 

(*1) I think I may have a Crab VEAT build with a 3rd slot in Stamina with a second End Mod piece... and I feel like I have another build (an aggressive Mastermind?) without so many set bonuses to help with Endurance management that may dig deeper into Recovery because he just can't help himself.