"The Game is not Balanced around IO's"..... should it be?

[Arbegla]

7 minutes ago, MTeague said:

If it were up to me, the P2W vendor literally wouldn't exist (and neither would the T4V).

However, I long ago accepted I have no place running a game or almost any other commercial enterprise.

 

I understand the idea behind the P2W vendor, as there were things locked behind a pay wall on live that people might want to have access to.

 

Giving that same P2W vendor game breaking abilities (like the amplifiers, permanent double xp, etc) is that bothers me.

 

The Prestige/Vet items, and the vanity stuff? Those are neat 'I spent real money on a fake pet!' powers from live, and could help with the RP crowd, and have limited, or no impact on the game itself.

[arcane]

4 minutes ago, MTeague said:

If it were up to me, the P2W vendor literally wouldn't exist (and neither would the T4V).

However, I long ago accepted I have no place running a game or almost any other commercial enterprise.

I would be ok with this too but decided to mitigate how pissed off the responses to my post would be before posting it 😉

[Hew]

54 minutes ago, Arbegla said:

Well, T3 and T4 inspirations can't be bought with inf

/ah 😄 😄

[Arbegla]

5 minutes ago, Hew said:

/ah 😄 😄

 

True, but that's more a Person to Person sale, and not a NPC to person transaction (so its inherently limited by supply/demand).

 

T1 inspirations are unlimited in supply due to the NPC to person transaction.

[Brutal Justice]

1 hour ago, Arbegla said:

 

Except 6 ATs don't cap at 75% resistance. And two of them cap at 90% resistance. Did you run the numbers on those ranges too? I looked at your math, and you legitimately account for DDR, and very clearly show that DDR is the linchpin to what makes defense better than resistance. If you don't have DDR, defense crumbles very quickly. Your math only supports that 40% defense at +4 outperforms the 75% resistance cap when you have DDR to back it up.

Which is entirely my point. Defense is already balanced around DDR.

 

I only ran and posted simple numbers comparing purely defense and resistance.  I did not account for the additional forms of mitigation available to those defense sets.  I also used, I think, the lowest DDR available to those defense sets.  Ice armor?  Ice armor also has -rech, +hp, -dam, icy bastion/hibernate to account for the low DDR.  

 

The -30% def also exists in a vacuum that insta and perma applies the debuff.  In actuality defense is only truly balanced around DDR when below the soft cap.  At the soft cap you have a 5% chance of being hit.  That means that with a 16 aggro cap, you get hit .8 times.  That .8 has to apply the -def necessary to start the cascade and last long enough for another one to be applied to really get it rolling. At 40% you get hit 1.6 out of 16 which is still a pretty small chance of one or more -def debuffs landing.  

 

With zero defense you you get hit 8 times out of 16.  Those eight more than likely carry multiple forms of debuffs.  It is possible to jump into a spawn of carnies or Malta on a resist tank and get held through your mez protection simply because so much is hitting you.  

 

A blaster at 45% def and zero DDR is more durable than an electric armor scrapper at 75% resistance.  In the trapdoor mission they just target the one mob that has a chance of landing a -def debuff.  Once that mob is handled they cake walk the rest.  Even in the ITF, the romans don’t apply -def with their ranged attacks, allowing the blaster to dance around while the electric scrapper gets plastered.   

 

A 45% soft cap available to all is unbalanced.  

[Arbegla]

7 minutes ago, Brutal Justice said:

 

I only ran and posted simple numbers comparing purely defense and resistance.  I did not account for the additional forms of mitigation available to those defense sets.  I also used, I think, the lowest DDR available to those defense sets.  Ice armor?  Ice armor also has -rech, +hp, -dam, icy bastion/hibernate to account for the low DDR.  

 

The -30% def also exists in a vacuum that insta and perma applies the debuff.  In actuality defense is only truly balanced around DDR when below the soft cap.  At the soft cap you have a 5% chance of being hit.  That means that with a 16 aggro cap, you get hit .8 times.  That .8 has to apply the -def necessary to start the cascade and last long enough for another one to be applied to really get it rolling. At 40% you get hit 1.6 out of 16 which is still a pretty small chance of one or more -def debuffs landing.  

 

With zero defense you you get hit 8 times out of 16.  Those eight more than likely carry multiple forms of debuffs.  It is possible to jump into a spawn of carnies or Malta on a resist tank and get held through your mez protection simply because so much is hitting you.  

 

A blaster at 45% def and zero DDR is more durable than an electric armor scrapper at 75% resistance.  In the trapdoor mission they just target the one mob that has a chance of landing a -def debuff.  Once that mob is handled they cake walk the rest.  Even in the ITF, the romans don’t apply -def with their ranged attacks, allowing the blaster to dance around while the electric scrapper gets plastered.   

 

A 45% soft cap available to all is unbalanced.  

 

I think a thing you're missing is the .8 times per volley, which can easily be per second against some mobs, as they have a complete attack chain and can cycle through it frequently. Also, most defense debuffs last between 5 and 10 seconds.

 

Take that same blaster and go run a level 50 mayhem mission with the PPD Peacebringers throwing -def energy blasts at you. The electric armor Scrapper would just laugh at those things with no issue at all.

[Brutal Justice]

4 minutes ago, Arbegla said:

 

I think a thing you're missing is the .8 times per volley, which can easily be per second against some mobs, as they have a complete attack chain and can cycle through it frequently. Also, most defense debuffs last between 5 and 10 seconds.

 

Take that same blaster and go run a level 50 mayhem mission with the PPD Peacebringers throwing -def energy blasts at you. The electric armor Scrapper would just laugh at those things with no issue at all.

 

I agree with all of this.  It is much more complex than just vacuum numbers.  It is possible to gain additional mitigation from actively playing your toons.  These Forms of additional mitigation are generally available to all and generally hinge much more on player skill than the raw numbers you can achieve, which makes things infinitely more difficult to account for.  

[Arbegla]

9 minutes ago, Brutal Justice said:

 

I agree with all of this.  It is much more complex than just vacuum numbers.  It is possible to gain additional mitigation from actively playing your toons.  These Forms of additional mitigation are generally available to all and generally hinge much more on player skill than the raw numbers you can achieve, which makes things infinitely more difficult to account for.  

 

That's exactly why I'm against changing the defense softcap on a global level. Because there are many different factors that would be affected by this change that could cause a lot more trouble then they are worth.

 

Yes, you can build a squishy to only get hit 5% of the time in some content. But, you're not going to get DDR, and nearly every single enemy group has -defense in some form, most of which is actually ranged attacks. That in itself is the balance. If you're intentionally running content with minimal -def, and singling out the mobs that can punch through your defense, its no different then an invuln tanker singling out the psi damaging mobs before soaking the lethal/smash damage.

 

Saying the entire game is unbalanced because of that isn't right. It just appears to be unbalanced because its used so frequently. People intentionally avoid content that is challenging, like Arachnos/Longbow/Rularuu that would punch right through a squishy being soft capped, but would be much easier for a resistance based set to handle, or even a defensive set with DDR.

[Brutal Justice]

12 minutes ago, Arbegla said:

Yes, you can build a squishy to only get hit 5% of the time in some content. But, you're not going to get DDR, and nearly every single enemy group has -defense in some form, most of which is actually ranged attacks. That in itself is the balance.

 

Its not balanced when the squishy has enough firepower to ignore the need for DDR.  Ranged attacks generally deal much less damage than melee attacks as well.  Council actually have a pretty decent amount of -def and yet blasters plow right through them.  

 

13 minutes ago, Arbegla said:

People intentionally avoid content that is challenging, like Arachnos/Longbow/Rularuu that would punch right through a squishy being soft capped, but would be much easier for a resistance based set to handle, or even a defensive set with DDR.

 

Arachnos and longbow are fairly rare on blue side.  You don’t even have to actively avoid them.  They are both actually pretty well balanced as well, having methods of dealing with pretty much any armor type.    Rularuu as well are only in one area.  Blasters are setting the speed records against arachnos in the trapdoor mission.  You don’t see electric armor scrappers posting times, for reasons.  

[Arbegla]

6 minutes ago, Brutal Justice said:

Arachnos and longbow are fairly rare on blue side.

 

This is the key phrase. Try Red side a bit. See how much Arachnos and Longbow (and PPD) you fight.

 

Having the firepower to beat up specific mobs, and then roll over the rest of them because they don't pose a challenge isn't a product of overall game balance, its a combination of knowing the game mechanics in such a way that you've essentially mastered it. That goes back to giving me, @Bill Z Bubba or you an SO'ed character, and giving a brand new player a fully IOed character.

 

Whose is going to perform better overall?

[Neiska]

At this point I wonder if some of these suggested ideas/changes would do more harm than good. Things such as the defense cap change, removal of p2w vendors, etc. Personally if we lost things we already have access too (moreso), I would feel less inclined to keep playing than to play something else. It just very much feels as if some out there want everyone to "play their way", and those that do not, are "wrong". I mean, I truly do wonder at the thought process of removing tools and options, and call it "progress."

 

I mean, if the P2W and AE were removed, I would likely uninstall, simply because I spend more time leveling up builds to test things out. Often enough, I get a concept build to level cap before I go "ick.. not liking this." because some powersets change so drastically once they are fully leveled/slotted etc. And the argument I have seen before about people leveling too fast really is a hook in the carrot argument.

 

If your point to make people remain is to give them artificial "timegates" to level up before they decide if they want to keep playing or not, well, then I would question calling that "content."

 

From where I sit, its as if people are sharing a sandbox, but want everyone to build the same castles as they make. Well don't be too surprised if people go "you know what, think I will find something else" when personal mere opinions for sweeping changes and playstyles are pushed as "policy." And do it enough, don't be too shocked or shaken when you find yourself alone in the sandbox wondering where everyone went.

 

I've seen it happen before, many times in fact. One infamous player on a server went out of their way to coerced/harass some of the RP event's they didn't like, and then suddenly found their own things not being so widely supported.

 

Just, be careful what changes you push for. That tool you may not personally like might be the thing keeping many people still around, and when that tool gone, the other players themselves might be gone shortly after.

 

Just some food for thought.   

Edited May 20, 2021 by Neiska

[siolfir]

3 minutes ago, Neiska said:

It just very much feels as if some out there want everyone to "play their way", and those that do not, are "wrong".

That's a forum tradition (for far longer than HC has been around), though.

 

[arcane]

If someone thinks they would quit this game over the loss of P2W toys... bye? Don’t let the door hit you on the way out?
 

This is the same as when people claimed the no streaming policy drove people away. The game being more concentrated with people that actually like it does not cause me disquiet.

 

I don’t think AE is going anywhere because the devs typically know where the “full scale mutiny” line is.

 

Oh, and the game being a “sandbox” like Garry’s Mod is precisely what we would like to avoid. There are other servers already that offer that playstyle. Don’t corrupt this server just because you’re too lazy to move.

Edited May 20, 2021 by arcane

[Neiska]

1 minute ago, arcane said:

If someone thinks they would quit this game over the loss of P2W toys... bye? Don’t let the door hit you on the way out?
 

This is the same as when people claimed the no streaming policy drove people away. The game being more concentrated with people that actually like it does not cause me disquiet.

 

I don’t think AE is going anywhere because the devs typically know where the “full scale mutiny” line is.

 

 

Kind of the statement that I wanted to highlight @arcane. For people who seem to want to help a community grow, I don't think this would be particularly encouraging. But lets expand a bit shall we?

 

Who uses p2w toys? Well, people who level fast certainly. But also people who like to powerbuild, as well as people who INF farm. And not just INF farm for themselves either. If I had to guess, I personally have donated around 4-5 billion to various events/contests/new players. And a part of that involves p2w and the AE. And it's not just myself either, there is an entire discord of people who farm for ingame events and causes. The prize money for some of that stuff has to come from somewhere, and it helps keeps things active and lively.

 

So your "don't let the door hit you on the way out" would really target the "charity farmers" too, people who donate to verious rp contests/games/sgs who host public things, often for prizes. You personally may not care, but I assure you a great many more do.

 

And this is in no way meant to be a personal attack or insult arcane. I do respect your opinions as a fellow player. I'm just trying to show my point about other people that use tools for good reasons who would also be affected by changes too.

[Brutal Justice]

5 minutes ago, Arbegla said:

 

This is the key phrase. Try Red side a bit. See how much Arachnos and Longbow (and PPD) you fight.

 

Having the firepower to beat up specific mobs, and then roll over the rest of them because they don't pose a challenge isn't a product of overall game balance, its a combination of knowing the game mechanics in such a way that you've essentially mastered it. That goes back to giving me, @Bill Z Bubba or you an SO'ed character, and giving a brand new player a fully IOed character.

 

Whose is going to perform better overall?

 

I play red and blue.  I think less people are redside more for reasons not related to enemy factions, but that is a different conversation all together.  

 

The IOd new player will perform better.  It might be close if a vet had a none softcapped, fully IOd  build and the new player had a softcapped IO build.  This is easily seen by the power spike a blaster gets once soft capped.  I play generic IOs to lvl 47 with a few global IOs mixed in.  Once that IO build comes online it’s a completely different animal and a lot of useful powers I used while leveling become extremely situational almost to the point of useless.  Ice patch for example.  

 

I think its healthy for the game to soften up the raw afk mitigation available and open the door for more active and unique forms.  

[Neiska]

@arcane - I am not familiar with "Garry's Mod", when I said sandboxes, I meant everyone is in the same game enjoying the same offered activities in their own way. I don't think that is what you were thinking when you said "Don't corrupt this server" so can I ask for some elaboration? I am genuinely curious because I think you are referring to a point I am unfamiliar with. 

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 hour ago, siolfir said:

That's a forum tradition (for far longer than HC has been around), though.

 

True statement. I lost track a decade ago on the number of arguments that occurred between myself and those that thought there should be no solo path to incarnate-hood.

[Hexquisite]

21 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

True statement. I lost track a decade ago on the number of arguments that occurred between myself and those that thought there should be no solo path to incarnate-hood.

 

There should be a solo path to everything.

 

In every game.

 

Ever.

 

Just because I like playing an MMO doesn't mean I always like being social. 

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 minute ago, Hexquisite said:

Just because I like playing an MMO doesn't mean I always like being social. 

 

MMO has always meant you CAN play with other people. Not that you have to or should.

[Hexquisite]

7 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

MMO has always meant you CAN play with other people. Not that you have to or should.

 

Honestly, CoH is the only MMO in which I do.

 

But, um, to be on topic... everyone is wrong. About the things.

[Bill Z Bubba]

18 minutes ago, Hexquisite said:

Honestly, CoH is the only MMO in which I do.

 

But, um, to be on topic... everyone is wrong. About the things.

 

Maybe. But only because I've been informed that I'm always wrong because I'm an outlier. Whatever the bleeding fark that means.

[Arbegla]

On 1/30/2021 at 2:50 PM, Brutal Justice said:

Not Binomial coefficient math

 

@Bopper wanna help me here with showing why this math is flawed, or has too many pages gone by?

[Bopper]

11 minutes ago, Arbegla said:

 

@Bopper wanna help me here with showing why this math is flawed, or has too many pages gone by?

I count 52 pages and I don't know if I've read past the OP. I'll take a look at the post you're referencing though. Give me a minute

 

Edit: more like, give me a day. I didn't realize I was being pointed to a novel. I'll look it over when I have more time, but reading over the first third of it the math seemed fine, but I stopped at the ddr portion.

Edited May 20, 2021 by Bopper

[golstat2003]

On 5/19/2021 at 4:54 PM, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

I know it's all in play but I'm pretty sure, due to her never correcting me when I called her a her but that proves nothing, the greatest math-minded player to ever grace these forums was a woman.

 

We even have a mechanism named for her in arcanatime.

 

Edit: No, really, I have absolutely NO farkin clue how she figured that out.

 

Hopefully she one day decides to devote her brain to science and we get better computers out of it. 😛 

[golstat2003]

6 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

True statement. I lost track a decade ago on the number of arguments that occurred between myself and those that thought there should be no solo path to incarnate-hood.

 

That was one of the silliest arguments I've seen on the COH forums and that's saying something. For the record I agreed with you. And glad Score/HC did also.