"The Game is not Balanced around IO's"..... should it be?

[Replacement]

25 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

So, lets toss a hypothetical out there.

 

Say tomorrow we log in and any non proc, unique/special (stuff like LotG which isn't "unique"), purple, etc, IO's could simply drop into your tray as you play. How do you think this would impact your experience?

So "Special" IOs (6th piece) don't drop as well as the regularly-scheduled exclusions (pvp, event, ato). This would certainly make IOing way more expected. We would still buy and sell, if only to attune, but yeah I'd say that qualifies as a pretty big sea change. One year after that point, we would want a new topic like this.

 

Heck, I wonder about doing this just with the 3- and 4-piece sets which tend towards bad, just to improve the baseline and introduce people to sets without feeling like a thing that needs a big time and brain investment.

17 minutes ago, America's Angel said:

What I'd love (speaking only for myself here):

 

-New level 50 missions/trials/TFs that have stupidly OP fight mechanics. I don't mean missions per se. I mean the end bosses of them. Just stupidly hard to fight. They laugh at defense softcaps/-res debuffs/inspiration stacking/destiny/judgement/procs/all other level 50 min/max staples. They break all the rules. (And these "end bosses" would be tweaked every ~3 months so that the strategy for defeating them would never be the same. Similar to how Hamidon was in the early days of live.)

 

Of course you'd only be able to do this if you introduced new incarnate slots/currency that can only be unlocked fighting these bosses. (Otherwise people would just ignore them like they do Dark Astoria.)

 

I'd rather this be the direction the PVE game moves in. Rebalancing the ITF/LGTF/etc around tricked out IOs and Incarnate powers just seems so misguided. The game is 17 years old. It doesn't matter how quickly you can run through old content.

I like this notion, though I tend towards a "watered-down but more expansive" approach (and I hate gimmick fights usually):

Give me a difficulty mode that makes groups spawn with a Power Grant, pulled from a pool.

 

This spawn, the boss has Accelerate Metabolism. This next spawn, every mob has Death Shroud.

 

Combine with my other idea where every LT spawns with one random inspiration and bosses have one random team inspiration, and suddenly you have a lot of dynamic, changing battles. 

 

Benefits are harder to work out, especially since I would want this before 50, so unless they lift the ban on Incarnate components pre-50, even that isn't a good enough reward.

Edited February 24, 2021 by Replacement

[Bill Z Bubba]

5 minutes ago, America's Angel said:

Well aren't you Mr. Specialpants.

/checks underwear.

 

Yes.

 

In all seriousness, I don't get why anyone ignores DA. There is no faster path to T4ing your incarnate powers and for those that want to avoid AE, fighting +4/x8 with 3 lvl shifts means you're getting +4 rewards for fighting +1s.

[Apparition]

7 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

/checks underwear.

 

Yes.

 

In all seriousness, I don't get why anyone ignores DA. There is no faster path to T4ing your incarnate powers and for those that want to avoid AE, fighting +4/x8 with 3 lvl shifts means you're getting +4 rewards for fighting +1s.

Yeah.  I farm the “Burdens of the Past” story arc in Dark Astoria to get eight or nine Tier 4 Incarnate abilities on every character.  I avoid Incarnate trials unless I personally know the leader because too many people still lock the league before queuing, screwing up the teams and kicking people out of the league.  I don’t feel like dealing with that, especially since I know it can be avoided.

[QuiJon]

I am not sure it is worth going back and reading 38 pages so i read the first few posts and just thought i would offer my 2 influence. 

 

I do think the idea of balancing a game with a clear path to higher abilities to a lower standard is a mistake. However i also think it is a mistake to balance it to a geared up the ass model as well. I do think though it is possible to find middle ground. With the recent changes we have already seen a change in the basic drops of TO, DO, and SO enhancements. I personally think that standard common IOs should also be included in those drop scales. In such a way at least that it is weighted by level. So maybe lets say if you get a drop (and i am totally making these numbers up because i have no idea what drop rates really are) in level range of 1-20 you have a 50 percent chance of it being a TO, 35 percent of DO, 10 percent SO, and 5 percent chance of being a IO. Past level 20 you take out TO drops because lets face it they are useless. And maybe 21-30 you adjust the drop rates of the three remaining, from 31-50 DO get dropped and your biggest chances are SO with maybe up to a 15 or 20 percent IO chance for IOs. And the effective buff levels of the IOs and other enhancements stays like it is now, where IOs scale up as you get higher level ones so they can not skew low level playability and at level 50 they are still 44 percent. 

 

Now you have a basis that anyone can get to with a bit of lucky drops and a bit of standard post level 50 playing. You balance your content to that level through the game and at level 50. Then the purchase or crafting of sets and bonuses becomes an extra buff. But in many ways might also now measure up as much. For example, many IO sets when you add total buff levels dont quite reach what you could get doing a standard 2/3 slotting on an attack of Acc/Dam. Which means when doing sets you might be actually lowering your over all damage or accuracy in order to get a buff to recharge, or def, or resistance or whatever then if you kept the IOs in place. 

\

Essentially bringing then the top level of slotting  closer to what should be the goal balance. A well slotted level 50 would be ideally slotted with common IOs very similarly to how a SO character would be now but have the benefit of higher then 35 percent buffs. You balance to that 45 percent buff level and then IO sets are a step above balance still, and incarnates a step above that. But at least your basic level of balance becomes the starting point of the IO system and not the ending point of the enhancement system that proceeded it. 

[oedipus_tex]

I think our dilemma can be partly summarized by how different types of players interpret the goal of gameplay. When I've been a developer on mod projects in the past, I've tried to classify player preferences using a cross axis like this:

 

 

 

I prefer to use the term Certain and Uncertain rather than Easy or Difficult because it's a better reflection of what most players mean. There's a high degree of Certainty, for example, in CoX's player death system. The stakes are deliberately not super high. You are fairly certain to advance even with many defeats.

The Solvable-Unsolvable axis refers to how the player approaches the gameplay puzzle. Players who prefer a Solvable game often prefer few changes and fairly predictable challenges. They want to "beat" the game and may feel cheated if they build with one understanding and developers pull the rug out from under them. Players who prefer an Unsolvable game view solvability as actually a flaw--in their view, the puzzle should be nebulous and changing, with players only ever temporarily seeming to defeat the system.

There is no "right" opinion. But it's helpful to understand why players have particular view points. Players who prefer a highly Unsolvable and Uncertain game are sometimes accused of wanting the game to be unapproachably difficult or elitist; players who prefer a highly Solvable and Certain game are often accused of being afraid of change or of being too attached to their perfect builds. Usually, neither case is true. It's just that each preference values different things in the game.

(For reference, I would place myself as preferring a somewhat Certain and highly Unsolvable ruleset for most of CoX's mechanics.)

Edited February 25, 2021 by oedipus_tex

[Snarky]

20 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

I think our dilemma can be partly summarized by how different types of players interpret the goal of gameplay. When I've been a developer on mod projects in the past, I've tried to classify player preferences using a cross axis like this:

 

 

 

 

There are the known knowns, the known unknowns, and the unknown unknowns to contend with.

Edited February 25, 2021 by Snarky

[golstat2003]

8 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

So, lets toss a hypothetical out there.

 

Say tomorrow we log in and any non proc, unique/special (stuff like LotG which isn't "unique"), purple, etc, IO's could simply drop into your tray as you play. How do you think this would impact your experience?

It would be cool. I might actually try to build around IOs as I level up, instead of waiting till 50.

[golstat2003]

7 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Weird. I spend more time in DA than any other zone.

How many other folks do you see there on a regular basis? 😛 

[Apparition]

Just now, golstat2003 said:

How many other folks do you see there on a regular basis? 😛 

 

On Excelsior, quite a few considering the Secret Champions SG forms Incarnate trials in Dark Astoria. :P

[golstat2003]

1 hour ago, oedipus_tex said:

I think our dilemma can be partly summarized by how different types of players interpret the goal of gameplay. When I've been a developer on mod projects in the past, I've tried to classify player preferences using a cross axis like this:

 

 

 

I prefer to use the term Certain and Uncertain rather than Easy or Difficult because it's a better reflection of what most players mean. There's a high degree of Certainty, for example, in CoX's player death system. The stakes are deliberately not super high. You are fairly certain to advance even with many defeats.

The Solvable-Unsolvable axis refers to how the player approaches the gameplay puzzle. Players who prefer a Solvable game often prefer few changes and fairly predictable challenges. They want to "beat" the game and may feel cheated if they build with one understanding and developers pull the rug out from under them. Players who prefer an Unsolvable game view solvability as actually a flaw--in their view, the puzzle should be nebulous and changing, with players only ever temporarily seeming to defeat the system.

There is no "right" opinion. But it's helpful to understand why players have particular view points. Players who prefer a highly Unsolvable and Uncertain game are sometimes accused of wanting the game to be unapproachably difficult or elitist; players who prefer a highly Solvable and Certain game are often accused of being afraid of change or of being too attached to their perfect builds. Usually, neither case is true. It's just that each preference values different things in the game.

(For reference, I would place myself as preferring a somewhat Certain and highly Unsolvable ruleset for most of CoX's mechanics.)

For me it depends on the game.

 

if it's Demon Souls I'd be on one part of the axis. if it's something like a simple beat em up Super hero simulator like COH I'm on the other.

 

There are certain games I play to get away from it all and turn my mind off, where play is quick and there are few impediments. And there are games I play where I want to be challenged and made to think strategically.

 

I like that there are different games for the type of "gaming mood" you're in.

[golstat2003]

6 minutes ago, Apparition said:

 

On Excelsior, quite a few considering the Secret Champions SG forms Incarnate trials in Dark Astoria. 😛

right but that's to do the trials. I should have clarified, I mean how many others do you see doing the actual "solo path" content, like Bill was mentioning he does?

[Bill Z Bubba]

3 hours ago, golstat2003 said:

right but that's to do the trials. I should have clarified, I mean how many others do you see doing the actual "solo path" content, like Bill was mentioning he does?

Honestly? It's rare that I don't see other people when flying between missions.

[ForeverLaxx]

12 hours ago, QuiJon said:

A well slotted level 50 would be ideally slotted with common IOs very similarly to how a SO character would be now but have the benefit of higher then 35 percent buffs

This only really holds true for single slot, and somewhat for a second slot. ED pretty much nullifies any useful boost at the 3rd slot, effectively normalizing the SO and Generic IO values to which the powers are already balanced against. Shifting the "balance stick" to Generic IOs won't be moving it very far. Even if you get a player using Boosters in order to make 2 slots of Generic IOs pull the same weight as 3 SOs, ED once again shows up to severely limit any additional increases after that second slot, making the "Booster Player" only stronger in the sense that they have more floater slots that they can put in powers they otherwise couldn't afford to slot more than the base slot.

 

As much as Generic IOs are the "new" SO, their impact on player builds doesn't push them outside of expected parameters of the old SO-only builds. Not really sure how your suggestion would change anything.

[Haijinx]

Interstate highways need to have a 15mph speed limit because of horse and buggies.

[SwitchFade]

2 hours ago, Haijinx said:

Interstate highways need to have a 15mph speed limit because of horse and buggies.

Cars are evil. So is lemon custard.

[Haijinx]

1 hour ago, SwitchFade said:

Cars are evil. So is lemon custard.

Some people are lactose intolerant.

 

All people need to switch to soy milk custard only. 

[Bill Z Bubba]

13 hours ago, Snarky said:

There are the known knowns, the known unknowns, and the unknown unknowns to contend with.

Damnit, Snarky, I was just snarky at work and my very first thought afterwards was that I owed you 5 inf.

[Sovera]

On 2/21/2021 at 11:27 PM, oedipus_tex said:

Just as an anecdote. Last night I joined a level 50 Task Force on a whim with my Vet level 100 Dominator, who is the most IOed character I have. He's built well but not what I'd call a top performing build. In the opening minutes of the first mission each of the spawns went from full health to zero faster than I could fire a control power. I ran behind the team for about 5 minutes of that, then faked a disconnect so I could speed up the bin engine I had compiling game code in another window. Sorry team (but you didn't need me anyway and that adventure was as much fun as walking the full perimeter of Independence Port). 

Whether that situation was caused by incarnate powers, level shifts, IOs, crashless nukes, damage procs or some combo of those things isn't something I investigated too deeply. The point was that even on my best build I was obsolete. 

I also played the game when it was not tilted quite so heavily toward instantly obliterating spawns and miss that. A lot.

 

I haven't been paying much to the forums other than the Tanker section so I have just binge read this thread.

 

We have had this talk in the past and the 'fault', IMO, lays in that thing I keep on repeating about: when half the mobs are minions and one, one person, throws an AoE and wipes them, then now there is half a pack of mobs left. Then the second and third and fourth enthusiastic AoE from the rest of the team happens and there is only an ailing boss and some lieutenants that were on the edge of the pack.

 

Of course the game is easy this way. SO only builds wouldn't change much. Most of the argument seems to lay on SOLO playing with only SOs. It's been a long long long while since when I joined in Issue 7, but even back then without IOs I remember doing missions at +4x8 and the team melting the map.

 

WoW and GW2 understand this. Mobs in dungeons are invariably elites (akin to elite bosses in CoH) because the devs understood if they put normal mobs meant to be fought by one player, and then make them face 5 players, then of course they will melt instantly. The same happens here. It's why I compare CoH a lot to Path of Exile. PoE is the typical ARPG where we do not face 3-4 strong opponents at a time but rather 10-15 weak ones. In the end game these are usually obliterated with one key press and the game is all about run run run between packs and do that one keypress.

 

This is very much CoH in a nutshell. And, I mean, it's not bad. I like it. Fire, destruction, annihilation of a ton of enemies in 10-15 seconds instead of whittling four enemies over a minute long fight to defeat a pack. But just like in PoE it does not push to play CC builds or slow builds.

 

The game needs either of these things or even both:

- More HP. It could be translated by +5 or higher mobs but I prefer an option to turn all mobs into bosses, or even elite bosses. Someone might math it as better XP to just quickly kill minions and lieuts instead but I'd need a crowbar to be removed from the all boss option. This is not something that can have a switch flicked to happen and all mobs in all factions would need to be done one by one.

- The @Lineagolden touch where even without an all bosses option they still made the game hard. This is not easy either. Again, complete pass over all factions and a much more complex one. Also, to me, not as easy when we consider no homogenization between the 20+ factions so they all do -def and -recovery etc.

 

 

Heck, I made a super simple AE faction for roleplay with super simple mobs. But they were all bosses and used machine guns (which automatically apply -def) and my Fire/Claws used to melting content had to take it much more carefully. Also by killing much more slowly it incentivized bringing more players.

 

On 2/22/2021 at 2:13 PM, Myrmidon said:

AE is not the best way to earn Influence, however other than that, this is absolutely right. AE could use either a rethink or a shutdown.

Oh heck no. Don't even joke about. I cringe to remember how NWO removed their version of the architect.

[arcane]

I flat out reject the possibility that a Vet level 100 *anything* is turning out obsolete without the error being on the individual player’s end. That’s absurd.

[Bill Z Bubba]

Just now, arcaneholocaust said:

I flat out reject the possibility that a Vet level 100 *anything* is turning out obsolete without the error being on the individual player’s end. That’s absurd.

Never underestimate a person's ability for the absurd. I get your point and agree but I could easily make a truly horrible character were the mood to strike.

[arcane]

Just now, Bill Z Bubba said:

Never underestimate a person's ability for the absurd. I get your point and agree but I could easily make a truly horrible character were the mood to strike.

Sure you can make a bad build, but even an unslotted petless MM at vet level 100 would be contributing substantially by means of t4 ageless and judgement alone.

[Bill Z Bubba]

18 minutes ago, arcaneholocaust said:

Sure you can make a bad build, but even an unslotted petless MM at vet level 100 would be contributing substantially by means of t4 ageless and judgement alone.

You can get to vet lvl 100 without crafting incarnate powers.

[Linea]

801 took a very long time to balance, and uses out of game tools (but doesn't have to, it's just easier). 

It's easy to slap together a simple group for solo only play, but the default simple AE methods tend to not scale well.

 

There is an exponential^3 potential difference in a small team of SO only non-incarnates, and a full team of 8 full Tier 4 IO Tier 4 Incarnate players.  A single T4^2 player can encapsulate the capabilities of a full team of 8 SO Heroes.  And that only gets worse when the synergistic Incarnates start bouncing off each other in teams.  That's probably a 64:1 power ratio difference, if not potentially worse.

I've seen vet teams crumple to 801.0, and at the same time I've seen rare teams stomp 801.5, and I have a few very rare teams asking for more.

My BEST tank crumpled to 801.9, and I expect THAT (very rare) team to come back and ask for MOAR! The IOed INCARNATE is out of the bag, and there's no putting it back.

 

I would fully support a two additional settings:

• No Bosses - We already have this
• Regular - We already have this
• Bosses to EBs:  Minions -> Lts,  Lts -> Bosses,  Bosses -> EBs
• Bosses to EBs Plus:  Minions -> Bosses, Lts -> EBs, Bosses -> EBs
• All EBs: ... all EBs

 

You could give AVs a similar synergistic treatment.  I'd probably never touch that outside of teams, but I can see some teams loving it.

• No AVs - We Already Have this
• Regular Avs - We Already Have this
• EBs to Avs - regular EBs to AVs
• All AVs - All AVs

 

Edited February 25, 2021 by Linea

[arcane]

13 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

You can get to vet lvl 100 without crafting incarnate powers.

And that would put the error on the player’s end IMO 🙂

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 minute ago, arcaneholocaust said:

And that would put the error on the player’s end IMO 🙂

ERROR?!?!? Don't you concept-shame me!

 

/see? Absurdity has no level cap.