Debuffs vs AVs

[dekova]

Are debuff powersets effective against AV enemies? I remember reading that AVs resist like 90% of a debuff which seems to mean that debuff sets work the least when you need them most.

 

But... then I often see people recommend debuff sets to solo.

 

Can I get some insight into what's what with regard to AV debuff math?

[summers]

It's a mixed bag.

 

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Archvillain_Resistance

 

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Purple_Patch

 

These are the two relevant articles that provide you with full detail on how it works. Perhaps the most relevant to note is that AVs do not have any special resistance to resist debuffs which make them highly desirable in these fights.

[ForeverLaxx]

40 minutes ago, summers said:

AVs do not have any special resistance to resist debuffs

That's because Damage Resistance already resists -Resist debuffs. They don't need extra on top of that.

[nihilii]

-RES works great.
-DAM works great against AVs that have no extra resistances through their specific powers.

-REGEN from debuff ATs work great by virtue of having huge default values. The typical -REGEN power is -500%, so even after 85% resistance you're still cutting their regeneration rate to a fourth of what it is originally. This falls down if the AV is higher con.

All other debuffs aren't too efficient.

If you want to solo AVs on a debuff AT, it's generally good to have -RES and -REGEN, then focus on raising your personal defenses and dealing damage.

[Snarky]

1 hour ago, nihilii said:

-RES works great.
-DAM works great against AVs that have no extra resistances through their specific powers.

-REGEN from debuff ATs work great by virtue of having huge default values. The typical -REGEN power is -500%, so even after 85% resistance you're still cutting their regeneration rate to a fourth of what it is originally. This falls down if the AV is higher con.

All other debuffs aren't too efficient.

If you want to solo AVs on a debuff AT, it's generally good to have -RES and -REGEN, then focus on raising your personal defenses and dealing damage.

So, I just started playing a Ice/Cold Corruptor.  Cold has an ST -Dam, -Regen (Benumb) and two Aoe -Res (Sleet, Heat Loss).  These are good for helping a team vs. AVs then?

[nihilii]

You got it. All three powers are excellent against AVs.

[The_Warpact]

25 minutes ago, Snarky said:

So, I just started playing a Ice/Cold Corruptor.  Cold has an ST -Dam, -Regen (Benumb) and two Aoe -Res (Sleet, Heat Loss).  These are good for helping a team vs. AVs then?

I run a demon/cold MM that I regularly solo GM/AV so yes very good.

[Snarky]

5 minutes ago, The_Warpact said:

I run a demon/cold MM that I regularly solo GM/AV so yes very good.

I think i found my ranged squishy "unicorn" i been looking for since live lol.

[Coyote]

3 hours ago, Snarky said:

So, I just started playing a Ice/Cold Corruptor.  Cold has an ST -Dam, -Regen (Benumb) and two Aoe -Res (Sleet, Heat Loss).  These are good for helping a team vs. AVs then?

 

Yes, and you put in an Achilles Heel in Infrigidate (and also maybe up to 3 damage procs), and then Infrigidate becomes another source of -Res.

[Scientist]

A key is that if you DON'T debuff AVs, it can be pretty hard to take them down with one characters damage, and I've seen a team of 3 or 4 almost stall out on them if they aren't pretty well maximized for damage output or carry temp powers like Envenomed Dagger.  Whereas a scrapper, brute, or tank plus single debuffing defender, like radiation or cold, can very comfortably take down an AV.  A well built debuffer can do it solo, and probably faster than a solo melee, but you need pretty good defenses.  

[Riverdusk]

8 hours ago, Snarky said:

So, I just started playing a Ice/Cold Corruptor.  Cold has an ST -Dam, -Regen (Benumb) and two Aoe -Res (Sleet, Heat Loss).  These are good for helping a team vs. AVs then?

Yep, I call Cold the ultimate neuter the AV/GM support set.  Benumb also lowers all of their "specials", kind of a reverse power boost.  Also, Heat Loss gives an insane -240% recharge debuff which is enough to even knock an AV's recharge down a peg.  Especially when you combine it with some of the other -recharge that cold has, and in your case ice as well.

[Doomguide2005]

2 hours ago, Scientist said:

A key is that if you DON'T debuff AVs, it can be pretty hard to take them down with one characters damage, and I've seen a team of 3 or 4 almost stall out on them if they aren't pretty well maximized for damage output or carry temp powers like Envenomed Dagger.  Whereas a scrapper, brute, or tank plus single debuffing defender, like radiation or cold, can very comfortably take down an AV.  A well built debuffer can do it solo, and probably faster than a solo melee, but you need pretty good defenses.  

This

Lingering Radiation, Benumb, Howling Twilight, Poison Trap just to name a few of the classic, potent regen debuff powers combined with resistance debuffs also in the sets (Tar Patch, Enervating Field, Sleet, Acid Mortar, Envenom etc.)

 

And why if you ask you'll have Radiation Emission, Cold Domination, Dark Miasma, Traps and Poison come back at you as AV/GM specialists and often combined with either Sonic (resistance debuffing) or Fire (moar damage).  And prior to sets and Incarnate powers why something like Ill/Rad gained such early notoriety as AV and GM destroyers.  Illusion with PA and Phantasm allowed the not remotely soft capped, no mez protection builds to survive the attacks of their target as PA would keep their attention off the character while LR and other Rad debuffs allowed their Regeneration to be overcome.

[Doomguide2005]

10 hours ago, Snarky said:

So, I just started playing a Ice/Cold Corruptor.  Cold has an ST -Dam, -Regen (Benumb) and two Aoe -Res (Sleet, Heat Loss).  These are good for helping a team vs. AVs then?

Very much.  My Cold/Ice was my go to on Live for AV support on a team.  He had perma Benumb, Heat Loss on minimal downtime and if needed could hit Mako and Paragon Protectors after they hit MoG or Elude --> Power Build Up + Tactics + Aim and blow right past those defenses (iirc his To Hit would turn blue in combat attributes)

[Poacher]

It's worth noting that several powers in Trick Arrow (a powerset that's ALL debuffs) got buffed so that half the debuff output is irresistable. 

[Snarky]

On 2/9/2021 at 1:49 AM, nihilii said:

-RES works great.
-DAM works great against AVs that have no extra resistances through their specific powers.

-REGEN from debuff ATs work great by virtue of having huge default values. The typical -REGEN power is -500%, so even after 85% resistance you're still cutting their regeneration rate to a fourth of what it is originally. This falls down if the AV is higher con.

All other debuffs aren't too efficient.

If you want to solo AVs on a debuff AT, it's generally good to have -RES and -REGEN, then focus on raising your personal defenses and dealing damage.

I am rounding out my powersets (and Incarnate Theme!) for my Ice/Cold Corruptor.  Going with Intuition Radial Paragon for Alpha. I did T3 (Total Radial Revamp)  last night but I am a long weekend from T3s and T4s on the rest of the build lol. Cryonic Radial Final Judgement, of course.  Polar Lights Core Superior Ally, Clarion Radial Epiphany for Destiny, I am guessing and asking about the next two.  (specifically in regards to debuffing) 

 

I am thinking Support Radial Embodiment for Hybrid.  The descriptions leave a lot to be desired.  I cannot tell from the detailed info what the 'special' is.  One reason I am lookling at this is the 80 foot radius.  This will be one of my farthest range toons.  All powers are ranged and I have some minor but not insignificant global range boosts.

 

Interface I am a little torn on.  Diamagnetic Radial Flawless gives a 50% to hit debuff proc and a 100% regen debuff proc, but unsure if it is powerful.  (as the above -regen specifically mentioned from AT powersets)  Gravitic fits the theme and adds more of the same, never a bad idea.  Paralytic adds a defense debuff, which again adds more of the same, although not useful against AVs I see.  Then there is Reactive with a dam res debuff.  which I know people like for this work.  But it adds a Fire proc.  I am a sucker for theme.  Fire on my Ice?  hmmmmm.... gotta be something else lol.

[nihilii]

Interface choices that aren't Degen or Reactive are unfortunately really bad. The debuff values are too low to have any effect.

It's not going to be a make or break thing if you have to stick with theme, but if you want the most bang for your buck, Degenerative and Reactive are your options.

[Snarky]

53 minutes ago, nihilii said:

Interface choices that aren't Degen or Reactive are unfortunately really bad. The debuff values are too low to have any effect.

It's not going to be a make or break thing if you have to stick with theme, but if you want the most bang for your buck, Degenerative and Reactive are your options.

gonna slap on a gravitic and just push my wall of -rech -movement even further.  It may only work on trash mobs, but since my big AoE is DoT I might as well glue everybody more or less in place

Edited February 11, 2021 by Snarky

[Psyonico]

2 hours ago, nihilii said:

Interface choices that aren't Degen or Reactive are unfortunately really bad. The debuff values are too low to have any effect.

It's not going to be a make or break thing if you have to stick with theme, but if you want the most bang for your buck, Degenerative and Reactive are your options.

Reactive is a 2.5% -res debuff, hardly anything to write home about, but I still think it is one of the better ones.

[Bill Z Bubba]

7 minutes ago, Psyonico said:

Reactive is a 2.5% -res debuff, hardly anything to write home about, but I still think it is one of the better ones.

Doesn't that mean against something with 75% damres it gets dropped to a .625% debuff?

[Glacier Peak]

Build:

Spoiler

http://www.cohplanner.com/mids/download.php?uc=1526&c=745&a=1490&f=HEX&dc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

 

This is my main Ice/Cold Corruptor and badger (1360 so far!). I have mine set up to be effective 1-50+, as a solo or support build, and effective in team PvP. I think it has room for improvement, but it has worked against every AV or GM I have soloed. When you get in a tricky spot you can Phase Shift away or hit Barrier. I snag a couple self heal temps from the P2W vendor if I am worried about a tough battle. 

 

Incarnates:
Hybrid: Assault Core Embodiment

Lore: Carnival or Banished Superior Ally

Destiny: Barrier Core Epiphany

Judgement: Pyronic Core Final or Cryonic Radial Final (depends on the enemy)

Interface: Gravitic Core (love the extra -rech and -move speed when it hits on top of my already -rech and -speed ice attacks)

Alpha: Agility Core Paragon (extra end recovery is irrelevant with Heat Loss, but I like the small boost to recharge and defense over more damage from Musculature).

 

Edited February 11, 2021 by Glacier Peak

[Riverdusk]

4 hours ago, Snarky said:

 

I am thinking Support Radial Embodiment for Hybrid.  The descriptions leave a lot to be desired.  I cannot tell from the detailed info what the 'special' is.  One reason I am lookling at this is the 80 foot radius.  This will be one of my farthest range toons.  All powers are ranged and I have some minor but not insignificant global range boosts.

 

Interface I am a little torn on.  Diamagnetic Radial Flawless gives a 50% to hit debuff proc and a 100% regen debuff proc, but unsure if it is powerful.  (as the above -regen specifically mentioned from AT powersets)  Gravitic fits the theme and adds more of the same, never a bad idea.  Paralytic adds a defense debuff, which again adds more of the same, although not useful against AVs I see.  Then there is Reactive with a dam res debuff.  which I know people like for this work.  But it adds a Fire proc.  I am a sucker for theme.  Fire on my Ice?  hmmmmm.... gotta be something else lol.

If you are looking at Diamagnetic I'd go core for the guaranteed tohit debuff.  It is 5% and can stack up to 4 times.  A -20% tohit debuff isn't bad when you are fighting tough non-AV content.  Even against +4 enemies that is giving you equivalent of about an extra 10% defense.  The -regen part is only 15% and -regen is really only useful against an AV.  An extra -60% regen that is resisted isn't going to do a whole lot more than the -500% you already have in benumb.

 

If you really want it for AV's Degnerative's -hp and toxic damage proc is more useful.

[Frosticus]

My personal favorite debuffs for AV's are -resistance and -damage.

The interaction they have together is also noteworthy.

 

-regen is generally overrated for AV's. DPS is so high on most late game builds that base AV regen just isn't the hurdle it once was. There are of course times it is still fairly important.

 

As far as interface goes I use reactive on my poison/fire because it fits with the build which heavily leverages procs and -damage debuffing. So additional -res is welcome for boosting both those aspects.

On my ill/cold I use degen (75% damage proc/25% hp). I have so many sources triggering it that the -hp is usually maxed out and the 75% toxic proc damage adds up pretty significantly.