Focused Feedback: Travel Power Updates (Build 1)

[RogueWolf]

I'm at a loss for why people are arguing so strongly against this. And why the snark? I don't know what you expect me to test and share about things that are not in the beta, either.  It's feedback about design.

 

I have trouble believing that a significant number of players really care that much about the speed aspect to the extent that they waste slots in their build on non-combat travel outside of PVP. In fact I thought the whole point of this was because most players were NOT bothering with afterburner, so the devs are trying to make the pool more attractive. It seems like a lot of effort to appeal to a weird, relatively small subset of players. But I'll take your word for it. *shrug*

 

I would have liked to make a blaster with flight instead of leaping for the very much needed hold protect in acrobatics. That's it really. This change doesn't address that. I bet a lot of people would have liked that a lot more than having an extra power for travel speed. But ah well. Enjoy being able to fly really fast between missions I guess.

[Captain Citadel]

I understand EM has conditional +Def because the Live version of Afterburner has it with an OAS condition, so it's effectively only working out of combat, but it doesn't feel good to fall short of the (non-AB) Fly cap without it while only benefiting from the -Fly resistance in combat. I know Hover already has +Def, but would it be unreasonable for EM to have its +Def simply reduced in combat rather than eliminated?

With two 50+5 generic +FlySpeed IOs slotted in Fly and Swift, I'm 1.95 MPH short of the base (non-AB) Fly cap. That means EM is barely increasing my flying speed, and as a tank the +Def only out of combat isn't very beneficial because I'm going to be in the center of the fight all the time anyway. I know the endurance cost is going to be adjusted, but even setting that aside, EM is still offering very little benefit.

I realize this is just the perspective of one player with a very specific role and build, but I just wanted to provide my feedback that EM is turning out to be a very underwhelming power pick. I'm more than likely going to drop it in favor of Maneuvers and keep using that slot as a LotG mule.

Hopefully the animation issue can be resolved somehow. I like both of the animations but it would be nice if we could choose between "Magneto flight" and regular flight on Fly, and just have that override Hover as long as it's toggled. I'll have Hover on 100% of the time for the +Def and air control, but when I'm going full speed with Fly, (especially Fly+AB) I'd like to override Hover's animation to reflect the difference in speed.

[RogueWolf]

11 minutes ago, CaptainLupis said:

The teleport options don't take you to contacts, specific areas for defeat x missions, badge locations etc. Now as to whether the cost of a slot is worth it to improve that side of things for someone is a subjective matter.

 

Well yeah... like I said the speed buff IS nice.  Just IMHO not nearly nice enough to change my build to waste an extra power slot or even an enh slot on it. Making it also useful in combat, though, would make it an attractive option.

Edited March 17, 2021 by RogueWolf

[Sovera]

2 minutes ago, Bopper said:

The magnitude of KB determines the distance you would be knocked. Resisting KB is resisting its magnitude.

 

When using EM, you only get benefits if Flying. Were you testing with EM on while on the ground?

EM + Hover.

 

 

I'm testing some more and the behavior may not be completely well tuned. Something is not quite right.

 

 

I tested EM + Hover and the pylons did 12 KB causing a somersault. The overlaping is no longer happening and I'm solidly at -4 KB instead of bouncing from 4 and 8..

 

I left combat, disabled and re-enabled EM and now the pylon is no longer doing knockbacks. When I'm hit I am shown 8 KB from the pylon.

 

I am now attacking the pylon and losing EM's defense buff, but I am not being KBed and when I am hit the KB is shown as 8 magnitude.

 

Disabling EM makes the pylon still do 8 KB but now it knocks me back.

 

Re-enabled EM and attacked close to the ground (enough for Burn to be activated). Not being KBed. Tried floating off the floor. Still not being KB. Pylon is sometimes doing 12 KB and I'm not being KBed.

 

Enabled EM and disable all forms of flying. KBs worked.

 

 

I am... lost... and.. confused... Original test the -KB worked. Second test now I was being KBed non stop. Test a third time and no KBs.

[Sovera]

14 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

It was only mentioned in passing on Discord, hasn't been patched just yet. The cost will be 0.26/s in the next update.

That's a lot more acceptable to be run all the time. My fruit basket (with a bottle of Jack under the apples) is on your way.

[Doc_Scorpion]

5 minutes ago, RogueWolf said:

Well yeah... like I said the speed buff IS nice.  Just IMHO not nearly nice enough to change my build to waste an extra power slot or even an enh slot on it.

Nobody is asking you to change your build, that's a decision you're being left to make entirely on your own and is in no way required.  It's entirely optional and you can enjoy substantial benefits without doing so.

Edited March 17, 2021 by Doc_Scorpion
Speeling.

[Glacier Peak]

6 minutes ago, Captain Citadel said:

I understand EM has conditional +Def because the Live version of Afterburner has it with an OAS condition, so it's effectively only working out of combat, but it doesn't feel good to fall short of the (non-AB) Fly cap without it while only benefiting from the -Fly resistance in combat. I know Hover already has +Def, but would it be unreasonable for EM to have its +Def simply reduced in combat rather than eliminated?

With two 50+5 generic +FlySpeed IOs slotted in Fly and Swift, I'm 1.95 MPH short of the base (non-AB) Fly cap. That means EM is barely increasing my flying speed, and as a tank the +Def only out of combat isn't very beneficial because I'm going to be in the center of the fight all the time anyway. I know the endurance cost is going to be adjusted, but even setting that aside, EM is still offering very little benefit.

I realize this is just the perspective of one player with a very specific role and build, but I just wanted to provide my feedback that EM is turning out to be a very underwhelming power pick. I'm more than likely going to drop it in favor of Maneuvers and keep using that slot as a LotG mule.

Hopefully the animation issue can be resolved somehow. I like both of the animations but it would be nice if we could choose between "Magneto flight" and regular flight on Fly, and just have that override Hover as long as it's toggled. I'll have Hover on 100% of the time for the +Def and air control, but when I'm going full speed with Fly, (especially Fly+AB) I'd like to override Hover's animation to reflect the difference in speed.

Evasive Maneuvers can be used as a LotG slot mule. And Maneuvers is going to cost more endurance than EM based on what Jimmy said higher up in the thread. If you want active defense comparable to Maneuvers, just throw on a +def unique IO in to EM and call it a day.

[Bopper]

10 minutes ago, Sovera said:

EM + Hover.

 

 

I'm testing some more and the behavior may not be completely well tuned. Something is not quite right.

 

 

I tested EM + Hover and the pylons did 12 KB causing a somersault. The overlaping is no longer happening and I'm solidly at -4 KB instead of bouncing from 4 and 8..

 

I left combat, disabled and re-enabled EM and now the pylon is no longer doing knockbacks. When I'm hit I am shown 8 KB from the pylon.

 

I am now attacking the pylon and losing EM's defense buff, but I am not being KBed and when I am hit the KB is shown as 8 magnitude.

 

Disabling EM makes the pylon still do 8 KB but now it knocks me back.

 

Re-enabled EM and attacked close to the ground (enough for Burn to be activated). Not being KBed. Tried floating off the floor. Still not being KB. Pylon is sometimes doing 12 KB and I'm not being KBed.

 

Enabled EM and disable all forms of flying. KBs worked.

 

 

I am... lost... and.. confused... Original test the -KB worked. Second test now I was being KBed non stop. Test a third time and no KBs.

Fantastic testing and feedback, thank you. I think there is a bug report out there that mentioned EM not working when zoning. It's possible that messed up your first test.

[CaptainLupis]

8 minutes ago, RogueWolf said:

 

Well yeah... like I said the speed buff IS nice.  Just IMHO not nearly nice enough to change my build to waste an extra power slot or even an enh slot on it. Making it also useful in combat, though, would make it an attractive option.

It actually is useful in combat, it just depends on the AT. If you are a scrapper, blaster, brute or tank that is pretty much attacking full time you won't get much use out of it, but for things like MMs and defenders, where you are doing other things like buffing in between attacking, the extra defence is great when you are doing that.

 

It only suppresses for a few seconds so unless you are constantly spamming attacks it is very useful to have. But again it depends on AT and playstyle.

[ScarySai]

The mobility by itself makes it far more useful than afterburner ever was in a combat scenario.

 

and keeping the LOTG is a nice bonus.

Edited March 17, 2021 by ScarySai

[RogueWolf]

11 minutes ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

Nobody is asking you to change your build, that's a decision you're being left to make entirely on your own and is in no way required.

 

What?

 

Of course no one is telling me to change my build.  I was hoping this update was going to present new options for my characters that were worth changing my standard builds.

 

I see the point about it benefiting support toons Lupis called out. That is nice to know.

 

I see from other replies that I am not the only one finding this change to flight odd and underwhelming for combat toons, though. I'm just suggesting something that would make it all this work worth it to more players.

[Glacier Peak]

13 minutes ago, CaptainLupis said:

It actually is useful in combat, it just depends on the AT. If you are a scrapper, blaster, brute or tank that is pretty much attacking full time you won't get much use out of it, but for things like MMs and defenders, where you are doing other things like buffing in between attacking, the extra defence is great when you are doing that.

 

It only suppresses for a few seconds so unless you are constantly spamming attacks it is very useful to have. But again it depends on AT and playstyle.

That is a really, really great point. I put in a bug report for EM's def bonus not getting suppressed when Masterminds use their Pet commands, but for support characters who don't attack, this is a boon. 

Edited March 17, 2021 by Glacier Peak

[Bopper]

20 minutes ago, Captain Citadel said:

With two 50+5 generic +FlySpeed IOs slotted in Fly and Swift, I'm 1.95 MPH short of the base (non-AB) Fly cap. That means EM is barely increasing my flying speed, and as a tank the +Def only out of combat isn't very beneficial because I'm going to be in the center of the fight all the time anyway. I know the endurance cost is going to be adjusted, but even setting that aside, EM is still offering very little benefit.

I am curious, were you in the center of fights with Afterburner on? What were you doing when only being able to affect yourself? You will be able to be in the center of fights with EM and still not attack if you want to, you'll keep your defense in that scenario.

 

You're right that EM (with your slotting) will not offer you much in the way of speed outside of combat....but in combat, yowser. You will be stuck in animation when you attack, but instead of having to wait 4s to get your speed back again, you can immediately zip around. Seriously, play test it in fight and experience the feel of moving so swiftly. Maybe you still won't like it, but there is certainly interest by others to being able to do that.

[CaptainLupis]

6 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

That is a really, really great point. I put in a bug report for EM not getting suppressed when Masterminds use their Pet commands, but for support characters who don't attack, this is a boon. 

I actually found out by accident, I was trying to test the knockback effectiveness of EM on my MM, as it was the only one I had copied over that I knew had afterburner before, and couldn't work out why I wasn't getting hit, as I knew the defence on that particular character was middling at best. Turns out EM was better than I was expecting from a defence point of view!

[arthurh35353]

1 hour ago, CaptainLupis said:

I actually found out by accident, I was trying to test the knockback effectiveness of EM on my MM, as it was the only one I had copied over that I knew had afterburner before, and couldn't work out why I wasn't getting hit, as I knew the defence on that particular character was middling at best. Turns out EM was better than I was expecting from a defence point of view!

This would really penalize support characters that debuff vs. buffing only. While I'm sure it would be awesome for Bots/FF, it might suck for your rads and darks.

[Captain Citadel]

55 minutes ago, Bopper said:

I am curious, were you in the center of fights with Afterburner on? What were you doing when only being able to affect yourself? You will be able to be in the center of fights with EM and still not attack if you want to, you'll keep your defense in that scenario.

There's no need to get snarky. I was simply trying to explain that the Live version of Afterburner is only useful to me as a speed boost and LotG mule, and I always shut it off upon arrival to a fight. I'm glad that EM has the same IO slotting, because it means my build isn't affected. But EM is dead weight compared to the old form of Afterburner. For my money, the -Fly debuff resistance is a pretty niche benefit. It's probably much more useful for ranged characters who are using it to fight in the air. I use Hover in combat so I have on-demand 3D movement, but I'm a melee character with Foot Stomp and Mighty Judgement, so I'm generally glued to the ground as long as I have something to punch. That's why I'll most likely have to replace EM with Maneuvers when this goes live, because it's not worth micromanaging EM to the same degree I currently micromanage Afterburner when EM's relative benefits have more or less been baked into Fly and/or rerouted into the new Afterburner.

Again, I'm sure EM is going to be a boon to other people with entirely different builds and playstyles, Just giving feedback that after testing it, I've concluded that it's not a power I'd benefit from keeping. Achieving perma-Rage without Hasten has stretched parts of my build very thin, so I'm depending on Afterburner to provide a 3rd LotG recharge bonus. Once it becomes EM, the benefits of constantly activating and deactivating it are vastly reduced, so I'd rather replace it with something I would get more use out of. This means I have to swap it for something with equivalent IO slotting, and Maneuvers is literally the only other option I have for an extra +Def power given my current powers and pool choices.

[Glacier Peak]

20 minutes ago, arthurh35353 said:

This would really penalize support characters that debuff vs. buffing only. While I'm sure it would be awesome for Bots/FF, it might suck for your rads and darks.

Perfect example of why testing is important. Players find out that a power works in a way that wasn't intended and the problem can be addressed before it goes out to the masses. 

[CaptainLupis]

25 minutes ago, arthurh35353 said:

This would really penalize support characters that debuff vs. buffing only. While I'm sure it would be awesome for Bots/FF, it might suck for your rads and darks.

The MM I was on was necro/dark. If nothing else even on debuffers it will give you defence until you can get your debuff laid down.

Edited March 17, 2021 by CaptainLupis

[arthurh35353]

1 minute ago, CaptainLupis said:

the MM I was on was necro/dark.

You really aren't doing much with your secondary other than floating there with Shadow Fall, are you? Everything else is either a pseudopet (tar patch) or target enemy for effect.

[Bopper]

19 minutes ago, Captain Citadel said:

There's no need to get snarky. I was simply trying to explain that the Live version of Afterburner is only useful to me as a speed boost and LotG mule, and I always shut it off upon arrival to a fight. I'm glad that EM has the same IO slotting, because it means my build isn't affected. But EM is dead weight compared to the old form of Afterburner. For my money, the -Fly debuff resistance is a pretty niche benefit. It's probably much more useful for ranged characters who are using it to fight in the air. I use Hover in combat so I have on-demand 3D movement, but I'm a melee character with Foot Stomp and Mighty Judgement, so I'm generally glued to the ground as long as I have something to punch. That's why I'll most likely have to replace EM with Maneuvers when this goes live, because it's not worth micromanaging EM to the same degree I currently micromanage Afterburner when EM's relative benefits have more or less been baked into Fly and/or rerouted into the new Afterburner.

I'm not sure how you picked up snark, I was genuinely curious as to how you were using it because it sounded like EM's out of combat defense was in reference to the fact AB's defense is always on, but then you said you are in the middle of fights and it seemed odd you would have AB on in that scenario. You cleared it up though with this reply. I agree the added Fly magnitude you get is not interesting if you're using Hover while fighting as Hover provided 4.0 mag Fly already and that's usually enough protection (but hey, 8.0 protection is there if you want). However, if you wanted to use Fly while fighting, the added 4.0 mag Fly will help protect Fly's 1.0 mag Fly.

 

Now, it sounds like you're a melee character so the status effect protection would not interest you. What I think would interest you would be the ability to get back up to speed immediately after attacking (travel powers have movement suppression for 4s after you attack). Now...Hover doesn't have suppression when attacking, but it defaults to no added fly speed (it can be enhanced though...but you're only getting 47 cents on the dollar compared to EM). Assuming you do not use Fly enhancements in Hover, you won't move any faster than a suppressed Fly, is basically what I'm getting at. But with EM on, you will go at least twice as fast during this suppression phase and possibly more if you enhance EM.

 

Again, you might not find use in moving faster during fights or between one mob to the next. That's fine...as a flying melee character you fall in to the category of the most likely to not get added benefits from the power. But at the same time...how you were using AB is no different than what you could do with EM. You'll hit the flight cap easier, not have to be OAS, and you can leave it on instead of cycling it.

Edited March 17, 2021 by Bopper

[CaptainLupis]

3 minutes ago, arthurh35353 said:

You really aren't doing much with your secondary other than floating there with Shadow Fall, are you? Everything else is either a pseudopet (tar patch) or target enemy for effect.

I was actually using twilight grasp to see how long the defence suppressed for.

[Sovera]

17 minutes ago, Captain Citadel said:

There's no need to get snarky. I was simply trying to explain that the Live version of Afterburner is only useful to me as a speed boost and LotG mule, and I always shut it off upon arrival to a fight. I'm glad that EM has the same IO slotting, because it means my build isn't affected. But EM is dead weight compared to the old form of Afterburner. For my money, the -Fly debuff resistance is a pretty niche benefit. It's probably much more useful for ranged characters who are using it to fight in the air. I use Hover in combat so I have on-demand 3D movement, but I'm a melee character with Foot Stomp and Mighty Judgement, so I'm generally glued to the ground as long as I have something to punch. That's why I'll most likely have to replace EM with Maneuvers when this goes live, because it's not worth micromanaging EM to the same degree I currently micromanage Afterburner when EM's relative benefits have more or less been baked into Fly and/or rerouted into the new Afterburner.

Again, I'm sure EM is going to be a boon to other people with entirely different builds and playstyles, Just giving feedback that after testing it, I've concluded that it's not a power I'd benefit from keeping. Achieving perma-Rage without Hasten has stretched parts of my build very thin, so I'm depending on Afterburner to provide a 3rd LotG recharge bonus. Once it becomes EM, the benefits of constantly activating and deactivating it are vastly reduced, so I'd rather replace it with something I would get more use out of. This means I have to swap it for something with equivalent IO slotting, and Maneuvers is literally the only other option I have for an extra +Def power given my current powers and pool choices.

As I have posted here EM has a number of uses other than defense or -fly resistance. Foremost the fact we don't need to waste slots to enhance our flight speed (61 mph without EM, 87mph with). With its cost being lowered to 0.26 it is quite acceptable.

 

If none of my points are of interest, well, yes, change your build as per your desire as is your right. But do so informed.

[Glacier Peak]

Testing notes regarding EM.

 

Evasive Maneuver's defense bonus works without Fly or Hover active.

Spoiler

 

Evasive Maneuver's defense boost works for Mastermind's while outside Bodyguard

Spoiler

 

Evasive Maneuvers is suppressed for 4 seconds while debuffing a target

Spoiler

 

Evasive Maneuvers is not suppressed when using Mastermind Pet Commands to attack.

 

Spoiler

 

 

Edited March 17, 2021 by Glacier Peak

[Wavicle]

46 minutes ago, arthurh35353 said:

This would really penalize support characters that debuff vs. buffing only. While I'm sure it would be awesome for Bots/FF, it might suck for your rads and darks.

I’m pretty sure that is one of the intentional advantages of buffs over debuffs. Might not be fair, but I don’t think it’s an accident.

[Wavicle]

24 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

I want to repost my reply to your feedback for emphasis, hopefully you read it - you can achieve BETTER results by keeping Evasive Maneuvers after Page 2 goes live by slotting a unique def. IO in it's single slot than picking up Maneuvers. You can even keep the same LotG recharge IO in Evasive Maneuvers. You stated you don't want to have to constantly activate and deactivate it - your solution is to keep Evasive Maneuvers because it will cost less endurance than Maneuvers, slot the unique def. IO and LotG recharge IO, and just don't toggle it if it is that much of an effort (it's benefits activate and deactivate automatically, are you misunderstanding how it works?)

The +Def unique goes in Resistance powers, not Defense powers.