Discussion: Improvements to the Warriors

[Cutter]

1 hour ago, EmperorSteele said:

I had a thought.

 

If we're revamping the Warriors, who base themselves on ancient Greeks and Romans, then maybe looking at those cultures can give a bit more inspiration.

 

For instance, the Greeks were one of the first armies to adapt formations and tactics in battle (instead of just "everyone run that way and try to kill them before they kill you"). Revamping the AI in this game to follow suite might be an exercise in futility, BUT giving all Warriors small leadership buffs (Minions give Tactics, LTs give Manuvers, Bosses give Assault; OR, each unit gives a small buff of each type: minions give +1.5% to all three, LTs give 3%, Bosses give 5%),  just might be a suitable substitute. It would also make them a much more formidable threat in large groups.

 

Just an idea!

Yes, some kind of tactical/formation combat upgrade feels appropriate. Maybe not for everyone, but certainly there could be some elite legion within the Warriors that would have this kind of training and discipline. Odysseus' personal guard sure would, if that's a storyline to pursue.

 

9 hours ago, Fade said:

Here's my two cents: Spanky's Boardwalk is a very cool but very underutilized area of Talos Island. It's always been one of my favorite areas of the city - not for the reality of what it is, but for the possibility of what it could be. I would really love to see it get a bit of a touch-up alongside the Warriors, with a bit of added detail to bring it in line with some great zones added after the game's release like the Faultline revamp. It seems like an ideal base of operations for them, and could be the location of any new contacts, new mission maps, or both. Plus, as Supertanker added:
 

Thematically it fits with the The Warriors movie.

Also conveniently close to Alexander's current in-game location... hmmm....

[CursedSorcerer]

On 3/15/2021 at 10:36 AM, BZRKR said:

Wishlist:

Based on the excellent posts upthread, maybe the story should have different options depending on alignment? A Vigilante might sympathize with Warriors who are seen rescuing citizens from perils. A Hero might be disappointed to see the Legacy Chain working with the Warriors, whilst a Rogue might step in to facilitate, for a fee.

 

If it's in the cards, look at adding some new weapon skins to the higher level Warriors. Weapon skins that unlock with shiny new badges 🙂

 Maybe base them on historical Ancient Greek weapons? 10 Prominent And Incredible Weapons Used by Ancient Greeks | Learnodo Newtonic (learnodo-newtonic.com)

[oedipus_tex]

One thing I've always loved about the 1979 film is how unapologetic it is about its fashion choices, and its total dedication to that theme. Here's a quote from the director about his reaction to the graphic novel he was asked to adopt for the screen:

 

“I felt very strongly that it certainly was not a very realistic book, and I wanted to make it even less so. I wanted to take it into a fantasy element, but at the same time add some contemporary flash.”

 

 

In short, the movie is an urban fantasy. But even as a fantasy, the story still had its own "rules." In this fantasy, a street gang can be a fashion-forward symbol of youth rebellion. Part of the enduring charm of the movie is it embraces rather than backs away from its late 70's-ness. It's not trying to be "timeless," it's a timestamp. 

IMO the takeaway is that literal Greek and Roman elements break the theming. The aesthetic I'd like to see is torn jeans, colored vests and bright headbands mixed with only occasional nods to the Greek source. Watching any late 70s movie with gangs is likely to give you some ideas.

 

• The Warriors (1979)
• Switchblade Sisters (1975) - examples of a similar female aesthetic
• Walk Proud (1979) - a more subdued example
• She (1984) - more of a post apocalyptic look but has some good examples of blended BC/80s 

Edited March 17, 2021 by oedipus_tex

[Cutter]

4 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

IMO the takeaway is that literal Greek and Roman elements break the theming. The aesthetic I'd like to see is torn jeans, colored vests and bright headbands mixed with only occasional nods to the Greek source.

The more I consider things, this (and other similar comments) start feeling more "right". The CoH Warriors are not about an ancient Greek theme - they are about an ideal, being physical perfection (and arguably weapon skill). They've adopted Greek hero naming conventions, but that's really about as far as it goes.

 

With that in mind:

• I don't believe there should be any connection to Cimerora - there's no link there at all.
  • If anything, I'd like to see (as I mentioned in an earlier comment) more grey-con mobs from other Smuggler's Run gangs showing up as occasional one-ofs.
• The 70's gang aesthetic should not, in any significant way, be compromised.
  • I could even see any argument for leaning further into it, with factions/units within the Warriors adopting other 70's gang looks.
• Open the ranks to female members. It's right there in the lore that they don't discriminate; this should be a no-brainer.
• Any gear upgrades should be limited to the "simple weapons" group - do more with their existing bows/crossbows, maybe different skins for their axes/swords/maces; if anything gets added, spears/javelins is prolly it there. No guns obviously, and likewise no flashy blades; these guys are brute force over style.
  • @RMS33's comment about scrounged weapons deserves a look I think. Those could be the tools of the minion rank-and-file, with "real" weapons being reserved for those who have proven themselves worthy.
• Added powersets should similarly limited - Willpower & Shield Defense would be pretty on-theme inclusions, while something like Titan Weapons is more of a stretch but not out of the realm of possibility (perhaps TW could be Odysseus' thang). I could see a spear user poaching a couple of the less-flashy Staff Fighting moves, but otherwise that one's out (actually, looking at the Staff animations, they are a lot more "slappy" than "stabby", which doesn't really fit spears AFAIK).
  • I don't like the idea of them branching into unarmed combat at all.
• Leadership toggles and/or some kind of tactical updates (stirring shout kinda deal, calls for reinforcements/ambushes) would be totally appropriate. Bonus points if Leadership can be made nofx.
  • "Come out and play" as a call for ambush would be amazeballs.
• No overt "power" effects. The only one who has a unique appearance (that I know of) is Heracles due to Steph's ring, which is as they say the exception that proves the rule. Part of their schtick is that they are "normal", with any enhancements being nofx deals. They're tough & hit hard because they are always striving to improve (and beat each other up on the regular).
• More appearances in missions / presence in zones would be appropriate for a gang that threatens to take over all the rest.
• Exploration of how they obtain the artifacts they traffick in would be a good way to add lore depth and introduce new/unique mobs.
• Consider new storylines that follow up the Alexander schism (or not schism), and give us a look at Odysseus' deal.

Whew. Brain empty now.

Edited March 17, 2021 by Cutter
come out and play; colour coding

[Doc_Scorpion]

35 minutes ago, Cutter said:

I don't believe there should be any connection to Cimerora - there's no link there at all.

Agreed.  Not to mention - though COH lore is more than a bit muddy on some of the finer points, Cimerora is unquestionably Roman.  Not Greek.  And other than maybe as rumors and whispers, probably entirely unknown the present day Warriors anyhow.

The Warriors are (to my mind) more LARPers grown out of control than historical re-enactors or re-creators.  They're playing out Ancient Greece of myth and legend, probably informed by no better than the average high schooler's knowledge of the matter.  If anyone has deeper knowledge, they probably keep it to themselves...  Deflating the self image of a violent street gang is not a sure path to health, wealth, and happiness.

[Arbegla]

I've been playing Lowbies H-side, and I'm in that 20-29 range, where the Warriors first start appear (along side the Tsoo, Family, Council/5th Column, and Freakshow) and it got me thinking of what Origin are the Warriors really?

 

For example:

 

Tsoo is Magic/Science (Ancestors/Sorcerers are inherently magical, Ink men are Magically imbued with Science ink)

 

Family is Natural/Tech (Mobsters with high-end weaponary)

 

Council/5th Column are Science/Mutant (Genetically enhanced soldiers, the Vampyre, and Wolves)

 

Freakshow are Tech/Mutant (Tech is obvious, Mutant is from the drug they all take that changes them genetically)

 

So that leaves Warriors as Natural/Magic (Natural warriors, that occasionally use Magically enhanced items, but nothing inherent)

 

I think they definitely need the Gender fix, that the Hellions and Skulls got, giving them some female models. I think they should also have different style of weapons based on rank (minions have lower quality gear then LTs, and bosses) and I think that the bosses should get magically enhanced items for some of the more magical elements (Dark, Fire, Ice, etc) This would break up the group to be slightly more than a Lethal/Smash group, and allow you to really tell how the ranking is within the group themselves. I would also add extended stories to help push that the Warriors are the top of the totem pole when it comes to Magical items, something like having Outcasts/Hellions directly working for the Warriors to get their magic fix.

 

Even in the 'Meet David Odysseus Hill' mission, where you battle against the Warrior Elites, it doesn't seem very threatening to just smash some Lethal/Smash bosses. Having something more powerful, for the fact that you're supposed to prove your worth would be much more interesting.

 

so in conclusion:

 

• Include female models.
• Change the weapons based on rank, and add Elemental damage to the bosses. This could be just as easy as "Mace gets Ice, Sword gets Dark, Axe gets Fire" kinda setup, so its not much more work overall, as the group themselves are already broken into groups based on their weaponry.
• No inherent magical powers. This group is Natural first, Magic second.
• No civil war/split within the group. This group is very much 'We protect our own, even if we don't like each other much' I think Alexander is the outlier, not the norm.

[BZRKR]

3 hours ago, RMS33 said:

I always thought the aluminum baseball bat was the signature weapon of the movie Warriors.  They fight with anything that can be scrounged. Bats, clubs, pipes, wrenches; Industrially enhanced but otherwise low tech weapons where only the materials and shape might be more modern.

 

Most of these weapons are fortunately available. Changing the color and texture of a few old style weapons should be enough for a clearly distinct and striking look for the group.

Agreed and supported. Reskin the existing wooden baseball bat into a dented, scuffed aluminum one, now we have 2 bats. Maybe the "pipe" Staff Melee customization could yield another "street-level" mace?

 

[ZaranBlack]

I want to see female Warriors

[wjrasmussen]

15 hours ago, Fade said:

Here's my two cents: Spanky's Boardwalk is a very cool but very underutilized area of Talos Island. It's always been one of my favorite areas of the city - not for the reality of what it is, but for the possibility of what it could be. I would really love to see it get a bit of a touch-up alongside the Warriors, with a bit of added detail to bring it in line with some great zones added after the game's release like the Faultline revamp. It seems like an ideal base of operations for them, and could be the location of any new contacts, new mission maps, or both. Plus, as Supertanker added:
 

Thematically it fits with the The Warriors movie.

Well, if we go by West Side Story, the warriors would be dancing and singing their way across Talos Island!  Would it be an improvement?  I think you'd have hard time making that case.

[Crasical]

1 hour ago, Arbegla said:

For example:

 

Tsoo is Magic/Science (Ancestors/Sorcerers are inherently magical, Ink men are Magically imbued with Science ink)

 

Family is Natural/Tech (Mobsters with high-end weaponary)

 

Council/5th Column are Science/Mutant (Genetically enhanced soldiers, the Vampyre, and Wolves)

 

Freakshow are Tech/Mutant (Tech is obvious, Mutant is from the drug they all take that changes them genetically)

 

So that leaves Warriors as Natural/Magic (Natural warriors, that occasionally use Magically enhanced items, but nothing inherent)

 

You reached the correct conclusion, IMO, in that Warriors are Natural with a splash of Magic, but I don't think the rest of it is right.

Tsoo are not science origin at all; nothing about their ink is chemical superscience, it's just straight up enchanted. You could argue Natural Origin for some of their base-level mooks that are just ninjas with no magic ink yet (The 'Enforcers', rather than the Ink Men), but there's a problem with that....

The Family are uncommonly skilled and hardened criminals, so Natural, right? They're Dubiously tech and more Science, since their bosses use pure, uncut superadyne to get superstrength or gravity powers. 

Council are Science (And Tech), with their supersoldiers, nictus hybrids. Tech for the robots, and so forth. They're not Mutants (You are born with mutant powers, not receiving them from outside serums or accidents, that's Science origin.) But, you also get a lot of extreme training regime for their soldiers (Apparently the mid-tier agents are SEAL-quality commandos). So, natural again....?
Freakshow are Tech/Science. Drugs and cybernetics. Again, not mutant. And there's nothing in the game that says Excelsior changes you genetically, as far as I know. 

 

So the problem I'm seeing is that 'Natural' pops up a lot as a possible descriptor for enemies: The Tsoo, Family, Council, all have enemies that are just trained goons without explicit superpowers. And that kind of poisons the ground for The Warriors being 'The Natural Origin Villain Group'; because other groups are treading that area, and they DO have a magical edge, their bosses are super-tough because of Odysseus' magic vase, not due to super-training and determination. 

[Arbegla]

6 minutes ago, Crasical said:

 

You reached the correct conclusion, IMO, in that Warriors are Natural with a splash of Magic, but I don't think the rest of it is right.

Tsoo are not science origin at all; nothing about their ink is chemical superscience, it's just straight up enchanted. You could argue Natural Origin for some of their base-level mooks that are just ninjas with no magic ink yet (The 'Enforcers', rather than the Ink Men), but there's a problem with that....

The Family are uncommonly skilled and hardened criminals, so Natural, right? They're Dubiously tech and more Science, since their bosses use pure, uncut superadyne to get superstrength or gravity powers. 

Council are Science (And Tech), with their supersoldiers, nictus hybrids. Tech for the robots, and so forth. They're not Mutants (You are born with mutant powers, not receiving them from outside serums or accidents, that's Science origin.) But, you also get a lot of extreme training regime for their soldiers (Apparently the mid-tier agents are SEAL-quality commandos). So, natural again....?
Freakshow are Tech/Science. Drugs and cybernetics. Again, not mutant. And there's nothing in the game that says Excelsior changes you genetically, as far as I know. 

 

So the problem I'm seeing is that 'Natural' pops up a lot as a possible descriptor for enemies: The Tsoo, Family, Council, all have enemies that are just trained goons without explicit superpowers. And that kind of poisons the ground for The Warriors being 'The Natural Origin Villain Group'; because other groups are treading that area, and they DO have a magical edge, their bosses are super-tough because of Odysseus' magic vase, not due to super-training and determination. 

 

I think I was also gauging it off of what DOs/SOs dropped while beating up the mobs, but I could be mistaken. I know I got a ton of Mutant SOs (and the character in question is Magic origin) but I wasn't sure where they came from.

[EmperorSteele]

3 hours ago, ZaranBlack said:

I want to see female Warriors

Ask and Ye Shall Receive

(Based mostly around @Aberrant's models with my own ideas from before thrown in)

[Cutter]

11 minutes ago, EmperorSteele said:

Ask and Ye Shall Receive

(Based mostly around @Aberrant's models with my own ideas from before thrown in)

These are excellent. Love the weapon & armour progression too. That needs to become a thing.

[TemporalVileTerror]

Nice, @EmperorSteele.

But give those ladies some beef, though!

Bulk up them arms and musculature!

Reduce the leg length to give the appearance of larger upper body strength!

Make them strike fear in to the hearts of any who dare to challenge them in combat!

[EmperorSteele]

2 minutes ago, TemporalVileTerror said:

Nice, @EmperorSteele.

But give those ladies some beef, though!

Bulk up them arms and musculature!

Reduce the leg length to give the appearance of larger upper body strength!

Make them strike fear in to the hearts of any who dare to challenge them in combat!

So, funny thing: I DID beef them up (the LT and Boss especially). It looks like female arms don't get super bulky compared to the torso and legs when you play with the body slider; and they're wearing baggy pants so you can't see the extra muscle there.

But yeah, I left leg length at normal, you're right that shrinking them down a bit would help even them out!

[TemporalVileTerror]

Hopefully @Piecemeal will be able to use the Dev-level model scalars to REALLY beef the female Warriors up to the appropriate athletic body types.

[Cutter]

Random non-body-scale idea: give some of the elite named boss types a reskinned Gang War summons.

[Piecemeal]

7 minutes ago, Cutter said:

Random non-body-scale idea: give some of the elite named boss types a reskinned Gang War summons.

 

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Cobalt Arachne]

1 hour ago, Cutter said:

Random non-body-scale idea: give some of the elite named boss types a reskinned Gang War summons.

Perhaps they should all get taunt to make things extra fun. 😈

[EmperorSteele]

1 minute ago, Nayreia said:

Perhaps they should all get taunt to make things extra fun. 😈

 

STAAAAHHP! XD

[TemporalVileTerror]

Taunt War?

 

 . . . 

 

 . . . 

 

Then they also need Hard Capped AoE Defense too, don't they?  Lest they all just go "SPLOP!" from one Nova or Blackstar.

[Cutter]

Not Taunt... Warriors Challenge!

[Techwright]

11 minutes ago, RMS33 said:

A few New Warrior splinter group members, with carbon steel weapons

 

That line gave me a thought towards one possible storyline.

 

What if the Warriors got wind of a new metal, or a new metalworking technique, one capable of creating bladed weapons virtually indestructible?  Their efforts to acquire and master this to forge powerful, natural weapons might shake things up in their path to possess it, necessitating a hero response (or a villain response to get to the mcguffin first).    Sort of like adamantium claws, if you will, but materials within the Paragon universe, rather than the Marvel one.  This way, they increase their power and performance without sacrificing to magic, science, or in a sense even to technology.  The metal or alloy may be said to have special properties: stronger, lighter, even building an electrical charge from frictional usage.  This could give reason for stronger hits, faster moves, or the occasional electrical discharge.

[TemporalVileTerror]

Impervium-reinforced talsorian blades?

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Weapon_Customization#Historical

[twozerofoxtrot]

A story arc with this:

On 3/17/2021 at 12:58 AM, InfamousBrad said:

Stealing magical artifacts from group A and selling them at a huge markup to group B, then stealing them back from group B and ransoming them back to group A, is a really good way to get rich in a town where criminals all want to be super-criminals.

 

then leading into this:

On 3/17/2021 at 12:58 AM, InfamousBrad said:

Odysseus started out as a small-time artifact dealer and smuggler with a street gang but found out that the Circle of Thorns and the Banished Pantheon have entirely separate plans to destroy the world. That would suck for Odysseus, because the world is where all his money is. As more and more of his attention has gone into keeping artifacts out of the hands of the CoT and the BanPan, without him realizing it, he's turning into an anti-hero -- still a smuggler and a thief, still corrupt, but fighting his own separate war against even worse villains.

 

Seems sufficiently epic to me. The reveal could take place in Act 1, Act 2 cue crisis, Act 3 resolution. I'd love to see it.

Endorsing some of the other things shown by previous commenters

• Use increasingly bulky arm & shoulder plates to show rank. Warrior bracers iconically mark them, it fits to present more "arm armor" on them.
• Staves are fine if wild animations left out and classic-era skins are used; tridents, spears, etc. But less is probably more here.
• Yes to females. Also plug for Female Huge. A gap in presentation has been identified.
• I like the idea of Titan Weapons. If they're magically enchanted to be lighter than normal, it makes sense. But again, less is probably more.

My own thoughts on application of Shield wearers:

Lieutenants - Doing Damage:

Shield Charge

Against All Odds

 

Bosses - Preventing Damage:

Grant Cover

Phalanx Fighting