Mechanically, what playstyles are missing from CoH that you'd love to see?

[Marshal_General]

Thrown Weapons user like the D2 Amazon throwing javelins.

I still want to make a MA/ Kinetics character. That would make me tsoo happy!

They could just add melee attacks to defenders and corrupters and i would be happy.

[Galaxy Brain]

13 hours ago, TemporalVileTerror said:

So, expanding my thoughts for @Galaxy Brain et al to consider using in the original post of this thread . . . 

 

Categorizing the Mechanics of ALL Power Sets

This first stab is not at all comprehensive as I'm going to post with just the Melee Sets first, but I'm taking the shot at the goal of having this done up for all Sets . . . some day.  

I welcome everyone to explore my methodology and expand, or write their own.

 

 

I'll admit straight away that these are based on the in-game "Show Info" panels, and do not appropriately factor in things like Build Up versus Rage, or other similar factors which very likely shift the values in the DPA categories significantly.  Additionally, I'm aware that the info in the in-game Info panels aren't truly accurate to begin with, since things like Fiery Embrace or "Chance for" conditionals severely skew these values.

 

Still . . . as a loose snapshot, I hope this examination of the mechanics of various Power Sets is at least an informative talking point in this discussion.

 

What do you folks think?  Should I try to expand on this, or are there too many errors and too many subjective viewpoints to really make it fruitful?

 

This is a great start! Due to mechanics, I think some of the categories are a little disengenous... for example yeah TW has slow cast times, except it has momentum 80% of the time where it has some of the fastest on avg.

 

Lets work on this in DMs 🙂

[KaizenSoze]

Laying attacks/debuff which cause explosions!

 

Like the disintegration effect but with a big boom if you lay on a opposite effect. Positive/Negative stuff like in atomic manp.

 

They would have to be quick powers, or you would never get them off in the current game.

 

Or a series of debuff that build on each other. Great for AV-GM fights.

[Techwright]

On 3/15/2021 at 2:14 PM, Galaxy Brain said:

Energy Blast

All attacks deal knockback, you get to play around with this positional advantage

 

 

What do you feel is missing from the bunch? What would you love to see?

 

I know I'm kicking a badly bruised horse, but I don't believe there's set with an inherent mechanic for Knock Down.  Yeah, you can get Energy Blast to convert to it, but it is not native, and costs an enhancement slot for conversion.  As many players testify, Knock Down is functionally different from Knockback, though both leave an opponent on the ground, just in very different spots.

[Galaxy Brain]

6 hours ago, Techwright said:

I know I'm kicking a badly bruised horse, but I don't believe there's set with an inherent mechanic for Knock Down.  Yeah, you can get Energy Blast to convert to it, but it is not native, and costs an enhancement slot for conversion.  As many players testify, Knock Down is functionally different from Knockback, though both leave an opponent on the ground, just in very different spots.

 

Battle Axe does! 

[Techwright]

7 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

 

Battle Axe does! 

Had to double-check just to satisfy myself, but you are correct.  Thanks for that correction!

[Neiska]

My wishlist -

 

1. "Posion" based primaries/secondary's. Like Poison Melee, Poison Blast and so on. I think the closest things we have is Spines and Bio Armor, and neither of those really feel all that posion-ish. Spines is okay, but always felt more physical. Not overly fond of the graphics either. I know there are options which is fantastic, but wish there was a min vfx option for them too.

2. A Melee MM secondary -  Just for those days when you want to do something different and fight beside your pets, not stand in back and support them, or spam provoke "tankerminding".

3. A kiss elbow honest to goodness "sniper" set. I dont mean a single sniper power, I mean  a ranged set made for extreme damage, extreme range. The sniper powers are fun, but nothing really fits the super-sniper feel I once wanted to go for. My best feel was rifle/devices, but that was kind of blah.

4. I wish they would go over all of the VEATS. The Epic ATs don't feel so epic these days. Widows can be pretty good though. I am not expecting an entire redesign or anything, but a few tweaks here or there might be good. The VEATS are the least played ATs after all.

5. A "bodymorph" set, like the characters Warblade or Venom. Again, I think the closest we have to that is Spines. But that doesn't fit the theme to my mind. I mean a set where you grow a weapon from your fist, or turn your arm into a shield, and so on. Think something like powers from the Prototype game!

 

Just me thinking aloud!

[Coyote]

5 hours ago, Techwright said:

Had to double-check just to satisfy myself, but you are correct.  Thanks for that correction!

 

Also, Stone Melee is full of knockdowns and knockup. Not on every attack like Battle Axe, but Fault is 100% AoE knockup, and the two Mallets have high KD/KU chances. Also, Earth Assault for Doms has KU/KD in 2 AoE and 3 ST attacks, plus another ST attack with KB.

[Herotu]

On 3/15/2021 at 6:14 PM, Galaxy Brain said:

Energy Blast	All attacks deal knockback, you get to play around with this positional advantage
Beam Rifle	Tag enemies with an effect, and all other attacks do bonus things
Fire Blast	All offense, all the time. No tricks, just raw dakka. This also means no safety outside defeats!
Dark Control	Have multiple pets through possession, temp pets and a true pet (also -Tohit)
Electric Control	Control enemies by sapping their endurance and severly limit their options
Plant Control	Offensive control with great raw damage, and a key power that snowballs the more enemies you fight
Cold Domination	Defend your allies primarily by bolstering their defenses, and debuffing enemies
Nature Affinity	Sustain the party through stacking multiple heals that feed off each other over a fight
Time Manipulation	You can choose 2 targets: 1 gets extra benefits from your buffs, 1 gets extra detriment from your debuffs
Street Justice	Chain successful hits to build a "Meter" that is spent on powerful augmented attacks
Ice Melee	Slow down enemies that you strike, as well as inflict minor crowd control to provide a mix of defense and offense
Super Strength	A set that revolves entirely on maintaining an incredibly powerful buff that also has some consequences to monitor
Invulnerability	A healthy mix of Resistance and Defense, it lets you be passively tough vs most all content though with an Achilles heel you need to be aware of
Bio Armor	Choose different stances to adapt to the situation at hand
Stone Armor	The ultimate defense, but with penalties that you need to work around as a player
Radioactive Assault	Combine different powers in tandem to create new effects on enemies
Energy Assault	On occasion get powered up, allowing you to unleash a super move
Thorny Assault	Trade ST output for being able to spread damage everywhere!

 

These descriptions should be on the character creator. :)

[Zeraphia]

I don't think this is necessarily a "new/unused" idea, but I think some characters with more shapeshifting abilities would be interesting. The HEATs are a little alien-niche, but I'm thinking more along the lines of the Druids, or "Mystiques" (in what way you'd go about accomplishing that I don't know) of the world... Primalist was apparently supposed to come to this, but that was unfortunately scrapped. 

 

I also think a biologically-based blast powerset wouldn't be too crazy. Think Poison Blast or Plant Blast, something like that, etc. 

Edited March 18, 2021 by Zeraphia

[ninja surprise]

Not sure if it's what you mean, but I wish the powersets had a "tweak the damage type" adjuster.  Mostly to match the costume creator, but also to add flavor to the powersets. Kinda like the Switch Ammo thing in Dual Pistols.

 

Example:

You pick Claws. In the Costume Creator you switch them to one of the energy/glowie skins. Then in Power Customization you move a slider to change your damage to 50% energy, 50% lethal.

Or you pick Super Strength, pick a sick bubbly aura, and then adjust your damage type to smashing/toxic.

 

This way you could pick a powerset that looks like what you want and change the damage type to match your concept.

 

 

[Galaxy Brain]

10 hours ago, ninja surprise said:

Not sure if it's what you mean, but I wish the powersets had a "tweak the damage type" adjuster.  Mostly to match the costume creator, but also to add flavor to the powersets. Kinda like the Switch Ammo thing in Dual Pistols.

 

That is less mechanical if it is an aesthetic, and we also already have that a bit with Dual Pistols (arguable, get to that soon) and Staff with it's choosable secondary damage.

 

What I'm more looking for is actual playstyle differences. So while yes, swapping damage types would be cool to see more of, it is "already done" by a few sets. Something like a true "Stance Change" associated with a damage type swap is something we do not see, and is something I wish Dual Pistols did more of. There is a missing set between Dual Pistols and Staff somewhere in that the stances should be much more drastic. DP changes the side effect and a portion of damage dealt, and only sorta changes Supressive Fire between a Stun and a Hold. Staff's form finishers do some different stuff which is along the same lines, not as drastic a change as I had in mind but at least all 3 are different. 

 

What I would like to see is different swapped stances actually change key moves in a power set. For example if Supressive Fire is a stun normally, with Cryo Ammo it'd still be a hold with a lingering slow component. With Incendiary it could be another high damage ST attack, while with Toxic rounds it could be a super harsh debuff. The stats on the "normal" stun round could be edited to be sort of a balance of them all too with Stun + Some Damage + Some debuff (-Def or such). As-is though, you just swap between a stun or a different flavored hold which does not make the different stances stand out as much from each other. Changing that + maybe 1-2 other powers per stance would make you want to actually swap ammo more often.

 

Even something with an A or B stance that change drastically is something we do not really see often. Imagine a Support Set with a toggle that lets you swap between all buffs or all debuffs!

[Crasical]

I remember reading about a custom archetype, the Synergist, I think it was? 
Dominator Assault primary, secondary was a mix of supports/buffs, but the first power in the secondary was the T3 pet summoning power. The intent (I think) was to wade into the fight alongside your bash buddy, I thought the idea was *really cool*, 

It's the first time I've seen a new post-shutdown archetype that got my brain bubbling with possibilities.

[Herotu]

2 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

 

That is less mechanical if it is an aesthetic, and we also already have that a bit with Dual Pistols (arguable, get to that soon) and Staff with it's choosable secondary damage.

 

What I'm more looking for is actual playstyle differences. 

This is why I'm confused about the idea here. So many sets seem to have very similar/the same playstyle - lots of the early power sets for a given Archetype are different only in terms of animation.

 

So for me, Playstyle means Archetype. Is that right? I was always confused by the Kheldian/VEAT stuff they added, it seems super-complicated and unappealing to me. I know I'm missing out by not exploring these options, but ... I think what I'm asking is - do we want more Archetypes if they're going to be that complicated?

 

 

 

Quote

 

What I would like to see is different swapped stances actually change key moves in a power set. For example if Supressive Fire is a stun normally, with Cryo Ammo it'd still be a hold with a lingering slow component. With Incendiary it could be another high damage ST attack, while with Toxic rounds it could be a super harsh debuff. The stats on the "normal" stun round could be edited to be sort of a balance of them all too with Stun + Some Damage + Some debuff (-Def or such). As-is though, you just swap between a stun or a different flavored hold which does not make the different stances stand out as much from each other. Changing that + maybe 1-2 other powers per stance would make you want to actually swap ammo more often.

 

Even something with an A or B stance that change drastically is something we do not really see often. Imagine a Support Set with a toggle that lets you swap between all buffs or all debuffs!

That's nothing to do with new Archetypes so maybe I've got the wrong end of the stick?

Edited March 19, 2021 by Herotu

[Galaxy Brain]

2 hours ago, Herotu said:

So for me, Playstyle means Archetype. Is that right? I was always confused by the Kheldian/VEAT stuff they added, it seems super-complicated and unappealing to me. I know I'm missing out by not exploring these options, but ... I think what I'm asking is - do we want more Archetypes if they're going to be that complicated?

 

 

So the key you pointed out was OLD POWERSETS. For a notorious example, why do you think we have Battle Axe / War Mace, Broadsword / Katana? All of those sets used to be much similar and were literal reskins due to being "similar enough to work", like an Echo Fighter in smash bros.  There was even a time where Katana had the exact same animations as Broadsword! Over time they got differences, but you can see that both pairs have nearly 1:1 the same power set up with some different numbers here and there.

 

Due to limited tech at the time, as well as being their 1st drafts, many powersets ended up as very "basic" and often distinct in visual theme alone (IE what weapon you held). The devs came a long, long way and by the time power customization came around, "basic" sets with new models would not cut it. There wouldn't be "Icicle Melee" if you can color spines blue and make them transparent, it would not *play differently*.

 

AT's are a great example of mechanical differences mainly due to their Inherents. A Defender and a Corruptor may as well be the same with one doing a scootch more damage and the other a scootch more direct support. Likewise, a Brute and a Scrapper are even MORE alike with one being beefier than the other but having lower base damage, but nearly 1:1 power set up between them. What sets them apart is that Corruptors have Scourge which radically changes what powers they may focus on (rains), or even what they target, and likewise Brutes have Fury that makes them naturally want to play at a different pace than a Scrapper that is more static.

 

Where this gets more specific is the powersets. Yes, we have a good deal of "Basic" ones, but even those that appear basic can have some quirks. Claws for instance has a bit of everything, but what sets it apart is that it has BONUS recharge and end reduction, on top of a stacking build up/attack hybrid. For more obvious examples you have things like Beam Rifle which is a set that revolves around tagging enemies with a key power (Disintegrate) for bonus effects. That Mechanic (tagging a certain guy with a certain thing) changes how you PLAY the set. 

 

 

So in short, Mechanics = Playstyles. Basically WHAT a set does DIFFERENT from other sets to draw players to it over others that they could otherwise emulate via looks. You wont be knocking folks around with Elec Blast, but similarly you wont drain end or have a little pet with Energy Blast, despite both being RP'd as bolts of "Plasma Energy".

 

[Luminara]

3 hours ago, Herotu said:

So for me, Playstyle means Archetype. Is that right?

 

Have you ever built anything out of Legos?  In each package, they include a little instruction booklet or fold-out to show you how to put the pieces together and make whatever's on the packaging.

 

The game is Legos.  Archetypes are the little instruction booklets.  You can follow the instructions, but you can also throw them away and just make anything you want.

[Lost Deep]

I would like an archetype for melee fighters other than defense. Melee/Support would be neat, but what I most want is something along the lines of Melee/Manipulation for characters that more operate through savy and enemy control (with maybe a few limited ranged options) than raw ability to take hits.

[Galaxy Brain]

40 minutes ago, Lost Deep said:

I would like an archetype for melee fighters other than defense. Melee/Support would be neat, but what I most want is something along the lines of Melee/Manipulation for characters that more operate through savy and enemy control (with maybe a few limited ranged options) than raw ability to take hits.

 

You'd really like Dominators 🙂

[siolfir]

On 3/18/2021 at 8:37 AM, Neiska said:

My wishlist -

 

1. "Posion" based primaries/secondary's. Like Poison Melee, Poison Blast and so on. I think the closest things we have is Spines and Bio Armor, and neither of those really feel all that posion-ish. Spines is okay, but always felt more physical. Not overly fond of the graphics either. I know there are options which is fantastic, but wish there was a min vfx option for them too.

 

Honestly I would say a melee-focused Widow, plus or minus the dart attacks, is as close as Spines is given all the toxic DoT (and -regen from the darts). I also agree that both seem more physical, but really "Poison Melee" means you're going to have to have some way to inject the venom (because you eat poison) so there has to be at least something, and the spines, widow blades, and darts certainly do that.

[TemporalVileTerror]

I'm thinking the "obvious" delivery method is to take @Tyrannical's wish for a splash damage mechanic and deploy the Toxic damage in ....

Acid Melee!

 

Lots of Single Target Attacks that cause minor stackable AoE Debuffs to Resistance, Regeneration, and Damage output to nearby enemies, while dealing Toxic Damage Over Time to the primary target.  This would promote a playstyle of cycling targets to spread the Debuffs around, while still also capitalizing on the weakened state they're in, causing targets to melt over time.

This would lend itself well to a Brute or with a Survival Set which gains bonuses for the more enemies still standing around (Willpower, Shield Defense, Invulnerability, et cetera).  As long as enemies are not getting defeated abruptly, then such an Acid Melee Set would be a potentially fun way to solo content.

 

And they'd also be popular in teams against hardened targets, like Archvillains and Monsters, thanks to those debuffs.

 

Win-win.

 

And then get around to making that Support/Melee Archetype, so people can play Poison/Acid and finally live the dream!

[Lost Deep]

1 hour ago, Galaxy Brain said:

 

You'd really like Dominators 🙂

I do on paper but the whole domination thing is a buzzkill. That and I have some character ideas specific to some melee sets. It'd be hard to make an assault set out of dual blades! The entire reason I want this is less the mechanics and more that I have character ideas for melee fighters that do more things other than survive and take hits. Is this moving closer to the batman ideal? Yes, but there's other ideas I want to try too.

[ninja surprise]

1 hour ago, TemporalVileTerror said:

I'm thinking the "obvious" delivery method is to take @Tyrannical's wish for a splash damage mechanic and deploy the Toxic damage in ....

Acid Melee!

 

Nooooooooooooooo.... The obvious method is Carp Melee!

As you slap a chump with a carp, the scales and guts spatter off onto other nearby critters causing minor damage but also temporary blindness, nausea, and choking.  Your carp deteriorates over time, resulting in the need to summon a Fresh Fish perodically.

 

9 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

What I'm more looking for is actual playstyle differences.

 

Like a "alter density" toggle on Gravity Control that changes all the Gravity control powers so that instead of immobilizing or holding in place, the affected targets are drawn towards each other as if by a gravity well? Or towards the caster, she/he being the Center of Gravity? And the more critters you get into your gravity ball the more crushing damage they take?

Edited March 20, 2021 by ninja surprise

[Galaxy Brain]

2 minutes ago, ninja surprise said:

Like a "alter density" toggle on Gravity Control that changes all the Gravity control powers so that instead of immobilizing or holding in place, the affected targets are drawn towards each other as if by a gravity well? Or towards the caster, she/he being the Center of Gravity? And the more critters you get into your gravity ball the more crushing damage they take?

 

That'd be an example! A control set with a "switch" to Push or Pull enemies would be super cool. 

 

Basically anything that makes you play differently than the other sets.

[Narfu12]

To be frank like what was pointed out in other posts as well as the one I kept reposting. I would love to see the heavy weapons set implemented along with a single pistol set. But having ACTUAL smgs and shotguns at the ready that aren't just reskinned assault rifles or being forced to use the arachnos soldier set would be great. 

[Snarky]

Blaster Archetype that is designed as Ranged.  Current Blaster AT is designed as Blapper, slapped a Ranged bumpersticker on the package and gavee AR and later Water Blast Ranged and no true ranged secondary sets