Nerfing rune of protections duration

[Darkir]

They are discussing doing this here, it's on the beta now. I think this is of particular interest to def/corr/troller. Let them know what you think of this here:

 

https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/27034-focused-feedback-power-changes/page/11/

[VV]

I've tried to use RoP sometimes, but I always end up speccing out of it. I don't really play Def or Corrs, so I'm not sure about that. The likelihood of any of my Controllers getting mezzed has thus far been exceedingly low, even against things like Carnies. AVs are a problem there, but they are rare, and you can store up a few breakies. I even tried it on my Blasters and specced out of it, eventually. It just always seems like there is better stuff to take, especially with the one useless prerequisite you have to take.

[tidge]

I have one Controller 50+ (petless)  with Rune of Protection (level 44) and another 50+ (Gravity) without it. I have one Blaster with it as well. I have never treated it as anything but an "oh ####" power, so the changes will effect me, but not in a terribly noticeable way. I expect it will hold the same utility for me if the Beta change is implemented.

 

I like Flight as a travel power, and the added Teleport is useful (ehem, getting stuck behind a wall of CoT in the first mission of the Mortimer Kal arc) so Mystic Flight isn't a bad pre-req, but I'm not crazy about either of the second possible picks to qualify for RoP.... so my reaction is *shrug*.

 

[Hew]

11 minutes ago, 5099y_74c05 said:

It is time to rethink power pools vice nerfing them. The opportunity cost of selecting this power doesn't justify the nerf IMO.

It is the same opportunity cost as the other t5 oshit buttons. It now just has the same duration constraints as those other t5 oshit buttons.

[Hew]

31 minutes ago, 5099y_74c05 said:

I don't have visibility on what builds are exploiting RoP so I can't see what problem this "fix" was trying to solve.

A LOT. People actually have blaster builds that pretty much stand at tank level of toughness. Seen them in action. They are legit no joke. RoP isn't that hot below incarnates. At incarnate level, rotation of buffs gets you to be pretty much unkillable in totality with 100% uptime, with enormous gobs of damage. Seen it done on a huge variety of blaster/cor/def types.

 

 

 

[tidge]

On 3/23/2021 at 5:16 PM, 5099y_74c05 said:

I would like to see the data and context behind this and no don't take this as "I don't believe you". This sounds like an overall AT balance issue which won't be fixed by nerfing a pool power.

 

In the heat of battle, I don't pay attention that much attention to what other players are doing (with respect to 'click' non-attacks), but on teams I definitely notice a lot of buffs flying around such that I rarely 'need' Rune of Protection. I can only write that for the few characters of mine that have Rune of Protection, it is primarily for solo play.

 

I'm not sure how serious to take the argument of "We want the timing of RoP to be more like other T5 pool choices"... when Unrelenting has a far worse inherent set of timers. I suspect it is the self-rez component of Unrelenting that is causing the timing to be so weird, but 99% of my own use of Unrelenting is for the buffs and almost never the rez.

[tidge]

17 minutes ago, 5099y_74c05 said:

Who made that argument? DEVs?

 

See the first post in the Beta patch notes

 

 

The rationale is offered in the "Other Power Changes" section.

[Hedgefund]

I'm too lazy to respec old toons especially ones that exist just to autocomplete something every 3 days, but I used to take Rune frequently and NOT for the mez protection.  That was nice but not the reason to take it.  The Defender and VEAT resist values were outstanding, I would not argue if someone said too much.  Uptime isn't the problem though.  

 

I took it frequently for Def based melee toons and assorted Defs/Veats/Trollers/MMs.  I don't see doing so in the future due to the high opportunity cost mentioned above.  Mystic Flight is ok, the other requirement frequently gets taken off my tray to save real estate space.  So, too bad but it frees me up to take 3 useful powers.

[Troo]

On 3/23/2021 at 2:00 PM, Hew said:

RoP isn't that hot below incarnates.

 

Incarnates and max builds effecting the rest of the game again..

[DocRadio]

On 3/23/2021 at 2:00 PM, Hew said:

A LOT. People actually have blaster builds that pretty much stand at tank level of toughness. Seen them in action. They are legit no joke. RoP isn't that hot below incarnates. At incarnate level, rotation of buffs gets you to be pretty much unkillable in totality with 100% uptime, with enormous gobs of damage. Seen it done on a huge variety of blaster/cor/def types.

 

 

 

They achieve that with defense. Not a resist power like RoP. I know because I have two 50+ blasters that are damned hard to kill who don't even use RoP. And if you have a status protection hole Clarion can fill it.

[Hew]

4 hours ago, DocRadio said:

They achieve that with defense. Not a resist power like RoP. I know because I have two 50+ blasters that are damned hard to kill who don't even use RoP. And if you have a status protection hole Clarion can fill it.

They achieve it stacking a wide variety of powers, enabling people like defenders to clear a 4/8 itf SOLO. One of those key powers are RoP.

 

Guess what? Not everyone builds for JUST defense.

 

[Haijinx]

On that thread people were complaining from going from something like 75% (or maybe 66%) uptime on high end builds down to about 50% 

 

50% is pretty good for what is basically is SOW from the Willpower set. (Which can't get to 50%)

 

Not exactly some crushing nerf.  

 

 

[Lex Talion]

On 3/28/2021 at 2:51 PM, Haijinx said:

On that thread people were complaining from going from something like 75% (or maybe 66%) uptime on high end builds down to about 50% 

 

50% is pretty good for what is basically is SOW from the Willpower set. (Which can't get to 50%)

 

Not exactly some crushing nerf. 

 

Replacing actual time with uptime percentages makes it look much nicer, but doesn't do the subject justice.

 

Just like 40% defense versus 45% defense doesn't simply mean '11% less defense', but 100% more hits/damage,

the new minimum time without mez protection of 60 seconds, compared to currently 30 seconds, means twice the time to be shut down completely. And that can become crushing quickly.

[Haijinx]

1 minute ago, Lex Talion said:

 

Replacing actual time with uptime percentages makes it look much nicer, but doesn't do the subject justice.

 

Just like 40% defense versus 45% defense doesn't simply mean '11% less defense', but 100% more hits/damage,

the new minimum time without mez protection of 60 seconds, compared to currently 30 seconds, means twice the time to be shut down completely. And that can become crushing quickly.

 

Why not just advocate for full mez protection for squishies?

 

Or heck.  Lets just remove all controls from baddies completely except for the rare instances like Ghost Widow or Lord Recluse or Romulus. 

 

 

[Lex Talion]

20 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Why not just advocate for full mez protection for squishies?

 

Or heck.  Lets just remove all controls from baddies completely except for the rare instances like Ghost Widow or Lord Recluse or Romulus.

 

You're angry, and I actually understand, maybe even share, that grudge over what it has become, but as long as the mez system is what it is I gotta deal with it and the game is no better for me, if I let myself get beaten. I run a lot of self-imposed difficulties, but the mez system in its current form is fucked up, punishes squishies while melees can practically ignore it and I don't wanna deal more with it than I have to.

[Haijinx]

1 minute ago, Lex Talion said:

 

You're angry, and I actually understand, maybe even share, that grudge over what it has become, but as long as the mez system is what it is I gotta deal with it and the game is no better for me, if I let myself get beaten. I run a lot of self-imposed difficulties, but the mez system in its current form is fucked up, punishes squishies while melees can practically ignore it and I don't wanna deal more with it than I have to.

 

I'm not angry.   I'm a just amazed that people don't think there is enough Power Creep already in this game and want even more.  

 

Personally if it were up to me I'd eliminate the Melee's immunity to status effects.  Making it only partially effective.  Then probably have less controls overall since there wont be this crazy game of trying to overwhelm a Melee character's Protection.  But that's never going to happen.

 

But if the reason the proposed ROP reduction is so opposed is squishies being affected by status effects, just directly address that.   It seems to be a buyers market in the Power Creep sphere these days, so maybe it will happen.

[DocRadio]

On 3/25/2021 at 5:36 AM, 5099y_74c05 said:

Who made that argument? DEVs?

It really makes no sense. They should have said what they meant. "We think it's too good... here's a nerf."

 

[EmperorSteele]

I'm just wondering what enemy groups y'all are fighting that you need 100% uptime on mez protection, and why you go through the hassle of alternating two powers every minute and a half instead of just hitting it reactively. That sounds like a chore!

 

Seriously, if you're soloing +4/x8 radios, just pick Council missions, or use AE and find a farm where the bad guys don't use mez. If you're on a team, let a meleer take alpha instead of Leeroying in if you're so afraid of the consequences of taking alpha. It's not that hard to avoid mez.

 

I'm just sayin', there's gotta be a better way than taking a pool you otherwise don't want, and abusing an ability to the point that the Devs notice and nerf it.

[Coyote]

I'm also wondering why the argument is in the Controllers forum, who have access to Indomitable Will, and can AoE Control most spawns, and not in the Defender forum, who have no Epics with mez protection and depend far more on toggles as their main defense.

 

I can see a Time/* Defender complaining that they get their toggle dropped every other fight. If a /Time Controller is getting their toggle dropped at the same rate, I'd have to wonder why they're spending so much time in melee for a -ToHit debuff rather than just controlling at a distance.

 

I would think that Blasters, Defenders, and Corruptors are going to be impacted a lot worse by this chance than Controllers.

[Haijinx]

56 minutes ago, EmperorSteele said:

I'm just wondering what enemy groups y'all are fighting that you need 100% uptime on mez protection, and why you go through the hassle of alternating two powers every minute and a half instead of just hitting it reactively. That sounds like a chore!

 

Seriously, if you're soloing +4/x8 radios, just pick Council missions, or use AE and find a farm where the bad guys don't use mez. If you're on a team, let a meleer take alpha instead of Leeroying in if you're so afraid of the consequences of taking alpha. It's not that hard to avoid mez.

 

I'm just sayin', there's gotta be a better way than taking a pool you otherwise don't want, and abusing an ability to the point that the Devs notice and nerf it.

I am curious as well.  Don't Controllers actually have access to status protection in one of their epics?

[Parabola]

47 minutes ago, Coyote said:

I'm also wondering why the argument is in the Controllers forum

They actually did create identical versions of this thread in the defenders and corruptors forums as well as another in the general powerset section. Whether it was necessary to create four versions of the same thread is of course debatable. Apologies if I've misread the intention but there seems a distinct whiff of 'grab your torches and pitchforks, we need to assemble a mob' about this.

[Coyote]

2 hours ago, 5099y_74c05 said:

IMO one of the strengths of the game is and will always be customization; this includes power pool selection. Telling people to pick /Psi and move on is contrary to this design principle.

 

I think Controller Epics are generally very strong... /Ice is my favorite since it adds AoE that's normally lacking. /Psy adds the mez protection but isn't that great otherwise, /Mu brings a healing pet for secondaries that don't have healing and also a good AoE, /Earth has a bunch of excellent powers. I don't have a problem with the idea of "if mez protection is what you need the most and don't want to go Clarion, then go /Psy", because there are other strong pools that fit other builds better.

 

I think that in general, Power Pools should be improved... there should be more reason to consider what pools you're taking in a build. I love how the Teleport pool became not only usable, but good for a few builds who really benefit from pulling mobs into a killzone. That kind of change that makes a pool desirable is a good change.

 

But while I'd like to see pool powers improved in general, I'm really not understanding the idea of posting the same call to action on multiple boards... as @parabola said, it feels a bit like a call to grab torches and go rabble.

[DocRadio]

6 hours ago, Coyote said:

I'm also wondering why the argument is in the Controllers forum, who have access to Indomitable Will, and can AoE Control most spawns, and not in the Defender forum, who have no Epics with mez protection and depend far more on toggles as their main defense.

 

I can see a Time/* Defender complaining that they get their toggle dropped every other fight. If a /Time Controller is getting their toggle dropped at the same rate, I'd have to wonder why they're spending so much time in melee for a -ToHit debuff rather than just controlling at a distance.

 

I would think that Blasters, Defenders, and Corruptors are going to be impacted a lot worse by this chance than Controllers.

Good point. I mean... My controllers don't sweat status effects because I just multi-lock anything that could cause them. 

 

[DocRadio]

7 hours ago, EmperorSteele said:

I'm just wondering what enemy groups y'all are fighting that you need 100% uptime on mez protection, and why you go through the hassle of alternating two powers every minute and a half instead of just hitting it reactively. That sounds like a chore!

 

Seriously, if you're soloing +4/x8 radios, just pick Council missions, or use AE and find a farm where the bad guys don't use mez. If you're on a team, let a meleer take alpha instead of Leeroying in if you're so afraid of the consequences of taking alpha. It's not that hard to avoid mez.

 

I'm just sayin', there's gotta be a better way than taking a pool you otherwise don't want, and abusing an ability to the point that the Devs notice and nerf it.

I can only think of one thing, and even then it's more a matter of convenience than anything else. And that's having to retoggle certain powers that don't auto-activate once a mez runs out. Other than that break frees and an occasional use of RoP should suffice. If all else fails Clarion can be made perma.

I use RoP on just two toons. And it's not for the status protection. It's for the resistance boost. I'm just not seeing where a 30 second duration nerf is going to make the power worthless. Just makes it a bit more situational than it already was.

 

[PhoenixV117]

11 hours ago, Coyote said:

I'm also wondering why the argument is in the Controllers forum, who have access to Indomitable Will, and can AoE Control most spawns, and not in the Defender forum, who have no Epics with mez protection and depend far more on toggles as their main defense.

 

I can see a Time/* Defender complaining that they get their toggle dropped every other fight. If a /Time Controller is getting their toggle dropped at the same rate, I'd have to wonder why they're spending so much time in melee for a -ToHit debuff rather than just controlling at a distance.

 

I would think that Blasters, Defenders, and Corruptors are going to be impacted a lot worse by this chance than Controllers.

My current main is a fire/ time defender and I’m a tank on it. The nerf will mean I have to keep re toggling a lot more. Pain in the asssss.