Impact: A Super Strength idea.

[Biff Pow]

1 hour ago, Captain Citadel said:

But I would say we should maybe avoid repeating that chain of events and figure out a way to fix Super Strength instead of effectively discarding it in favor of a newer and better version of a very similar concept.

 

The problem is getting everyone to agree on what constitutes a "fix". I've seen a LOT of different Super Strength ideas (and added my own), I'm not sure anything can be done that wouldn't upset a good chunk of players. People would even complain about my AoE Hurl idea because they liked it being a skippable power.

[arcane]

6 hours ago, Supertanker said:

 

The problem is getting everyone to agree on what constitutes a "fix". I've seen a LOT of different Super Strength ideas (and added my own), I'm not sure anything can be done that wouldn't upset a good chunk of players. People would even complain about my AoE Hurl idea because they liked it being a skippable power.

I bet there would be a surprising amount of consensus on this one: Remove the -def from Rage for starters 🙂

[SwitchFade]

1. Remove jab

2. Make punch the T1

3. Put new T2 with cross punch from fighting (adjust damage up), cone power

4. Add damage to hand clap

 

Solves 3 issues, jab is bleh, adds a cone and adds damage to na existing AoE.

[Captain Citadel]

2 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

1. Remove jab

2. Make punch the T1

3. Put new T2 with cross punch from fighting (adjust damage up), cone power

4. Add damage to hand clap

 

Solves 3 issues, jab is bleh, adds a cone and adds damage to na existing AoE.

Then people will complain they have to take Hand Clap. Having more AoE is great, but this would mess up existing builds because you'd have to not only figure out which power to trade for Hand Clap, but reconfigure your IO slotting because presently only one AoE damage set can fit into a Super Strength build.

I think Impact is the better solution (whether it's the chance for AoE shockwave effect, or chance to apply -Res effect) but replacing Jab with Punch is fine. Adding a new "Super Cross Punch" as the T2 creates the same problem as converting Hand Clap to an attack power, though.

[Vanden]

I really don't like the idea of adding a "mechanic" to Super Strength, and I know I'm not alone on this. I'd prefer Super Strength stays a set where you use a power and it just does its thing, no managing any unique buffs or anything.

[VinceBlood]

11 hours ago, Vanden said:

I really don't like the idea of adding a "mechanic" to Super Strength, and I know I'm not alone on this. I'd prefer Super Strength stays a set where you use a power and it just does its thing, no managing any unique buffs or anything.

 

What about this idea would you have to manage?  You'd still be using a power and it would still just do its thing.  You wouldn't have to play the set any differently.

[Captain Citadel]

5 hours ago, VinceBlood said:

What about this idea would you have to manage?  You'd still be using a power and it would still just do its thing.  You wouldn't have to play the set any differently.

Exactly. This is why I like the idea of adding Impact to Super Strength, but don't like Street Justice. It would work exactly like the secondary effects in all of the original damage sets: a thing that happens while you're normally using your powers. It's not like Bruising where you absolutely must always be using your T1 attack to keep a debuff on the target. It wouldn't suddenly change SS into a combo-based gimmick set. The proposal wasn't to only add Impact to certain powers and force a specific rotation, this would be something applied by every attack in the set. The idea is that successive strikes are applying the effect by chance over time, not any specific attacks.

[Vanden]

9 hours ago, VinceBlood said:

What about this idea would you have to manage?  You'd still be using a power and it would still just do its thing.  You wouldn't have to play the set any differently.

 

Yes, you would have to play it differently. If you get Impact on a target, you have to follow up with one of a specific selection of powers. If I hit a target with Punch and Foot Stomp would be enough to finish it off, but Impact gets applied, now I have to use Haymaker or Jab if I want the AoE damage. If I'm a Brute without a Taunt aura, I have to spread my ST attacks around to grab aggro, but this mechanic requires that you focus your power use on specific targets. This subtly changes how the set feels to play.

 

3 hours ago, Captain Citadel said:

The proposal wasn't to only add Impact to certain powers and force a specific rotation, this would be something applied by every attack in the set. The idea is that successive strikes are applying the effect by chance over time, not any specific attacks.

 

Reread the OP - the proposal only adds the mechanic to Jab, Punch, and Haymaker.

[Wavicle]

The easiest way to fix SS is to give Hand Clap damage. Easy peasy lemon squeezy.

[Captain Citadel]

2 hours ago, Vanden said:

Reread the OP - the proposal only adds the mechanic to Jab, Punch, and Haymaker.

I missed that. I apologize. OP compared the idea to the Contamination effect in Radiation Melee, and that effect is applied by all damaging abilities in the set, triggering bonus damage on Contaminated targets hit by any single-target Radiation Melee attack. I don't see why Impact should only apply to some of the single-target attacks in SS and not others. With the exception of Foot Stomp, everything is single-target. The proposed AoE shockwave effect from Impact should be applicable to every single-target damaging ability.

I'd rather see Impact apply a -Res debuff, but either of these options would improve Super Strength across the board without radically altering how it's played or which attack powers are picked.

[Steampunkette]

Alternatively, lower the damage of every single attack by about 10 to 20 points at max level and give each attack power a chance to proc an 8ft AoE on the target's location that does 10 to 20 points, which is affected by damage enhancements. Maybe toss on a tiny knockdown proc effect.

 

Call the proc Impact when it triggers, and allow Hand Clap to trigger Impact.

 

The set's overall damage stays right about where it is, it gets a little bit more AoE, the visual improvement of knocking down a group of people occasionally, and maybe we'll finally stop hearing people suggest new ways to fix super strength.

 

But I doubt it.

Edited March 25, 2021 by Steampunkette

[America's Angel]

Nah. Too fiddly. Don't reinvent, tweak.

 

If I was gonna tweak SS, I'd...

• Remove the -damage from the rage crash (And lower rage +dam by whatever % it needs lowering by to make DPS stay the same).
• Add minor damage to hand clap.
• Reduce hurl animation time.

Doesn't need anything else.

[Captain Citadel]

13 minutes ago, America's Angel said:

Nah. Too fiddly. Don't reinvent, tweak.

 

If I was gonna tweak SS, I'd...

• Remove the -damage from the rage crash (And lower rage +dam by whatever % it needs lowering by to make DPS stay the same).
• Add minor damage to hand clap.
• Reduce hurl animation time.

Doesn't need anything else.

Hurl does need to be tweaked to work while flying at ground level. I feel like it's gotta be an oversight that was just never patched, because Foot Stomp and Mighty Judgement both work while flying that way. I'd put Hurl into my build if I could use it that way, but as it is now I'd have to toggle off Hover, use it, then toggle Hover back on.

ETA: I'd also like to see Rage be tweaked as you suggest, but I don't think the community could ever agree on it. Some people really like double-stacking it, and the stacking would probably have to be eliminated to compensate for eliminating the "impotent nerd rage" debuff.

Edited March 25, 2021 by Captain Citadel

[America's Angel]

Good call on making hurl work when hovering at ground level.

 

Not sure why rage-stacking would have to be disabled if my suggestion was implemented?

[Captain Citadel]

8 minutes ago, America's Angel said:

Good call on making hurl work when hovering at ground level.

 

Not sure why rage-stacking would have to be disabled if my suggestion was implemented?

Because I think the -Def/-End and -9999% Damage crash is there to compensate for the fact that it can be perma'd, and double-stacked for quite a while with Hasten. Remove the 10 seconds of zero damage output, and I think something else would have to give in exchange. But I'm not a developer. If it were up to me I'd prevent Rage from stacking at all, or find some way to rebalance Super Strength without it, just replacing it with Build Up. I don't think it was ever a good idea to balance the set's damage output around a buff with such high uptime. Build Up is not a required power for the sets that have it, but anyone using Super Strength and not taking Rage has to suffer pitiful damage output compared to other Tankers and Brutes.

[America's Angel]

13 minutes ago, Captain Citadel said:

Because I think the -Def/-End and -9999% Damage crash is there to compensate for the fact that it can be perma'd, and double-stacked for quite a while with Hasten. Remove the 10 seconds of zero damage output, and I think something else would have to give in exchange. But I'm not a developer. If it were up to me I'd prevent Rage from stacking at all, or find some way to rebalance Super Strength without it, just replacing it with Build Up. I don't think it was ever a good idea to balance the set's damage output around a buff with such high uptime. Build Up is not a required power for the sets that have it, but anyone using Super Strength and not taking Rage has to suffer pitiful damage output compared to other Tankers and Brutes.

 

Nah that's all too drastic.

 

Just reduce the % of the dambuff rage provides to account for the 10s extra uptime. (I think it goes from 80% +dam to ~73.85% +dam?)

 

 

 

[twozerofoxtrot]

  

On 3/24/2021 at 1:08 PM, Captain Citadel said:

I think one of the other CoH servers has an AoE effect applied to SS, similar in function to the concept @SkyeSharpe is proposing. I haven't tested it for myself, but I wouldn't be opposed to it.

 

TSpy had this, I liked it, but it was just a minor AoE that affected one other target. I think SkyeSharpe's idea is more elegant. Honestly though, anything to make the first 20 levels not absolutely suck to play.

 

On 3/24/2021 at 10:58 PM, SwitchFade said:

1. Remove jab

2. Make punch the T1

3. Put new T2 with cross punch from fighting (adjust damage up), cone power

4. Add damage to hand clap

 

There are two ATs that use SS. One half of them is going to cry foul at having to pay a power tax for that Cone. Personally, my Cheerios remain unsullied, but it helps to anticipate resistance with a good proposal upfront.

 

2 hours ago, America's Angel said:

If I was gonna tweak SS, I'd...

• Remove the -damage from the rage crash (And lower rage +dam by whatever % it needs lowering by to make DPS stay the same).
• Add minor damage to hand clap.
• Reduce hurl animation time.

 

I love all of this (though in the spirit of fairness, I love @SkyeSharpe's proposal as well and hope it gets considered by the Devs). But I've heard tweaking animation times is a big ask. Obviously it's being done for some powers, so it's in the realm of possible. But in the interest of seeing good changes happen rather than get recycled to the bottom of the whiteboard list, I'd rather see Hurl's damage spike way up or see an AoE added, as previously mentioned. Yeah the animation time is problematic, but it has payoffs for procs. Again, love all the ideas myself, but I'd personally tack to easier changes that go through quickly than ones that feel better but are mechanically difficult to execute.  

 

Caveat the above by saying I might be full of stuffing and welcome any Dev response that confirms or denies my claim about animation time tweaks being a challenge.

[RunoKnows]

6 hours ago, Vanden said:

 

Yes, you would have to play it differently. If you get Impact on a target, you have to follow up with one of a specific selection of powers. If I hit a target with Punch and Foot Stomp would be enough to finish it off, but Impact gets applied, now I have to use Haymaker or Jab if I want the AoE damage. If I'm a Brute without a Taunt aura, I have to spread my ST attacks around to grab aggro, but this mechanic requires that you focus your power use on specific targets. This subtly changes how the set feels to play.

"Have to" is way different from "can", though. If Impact gets applied, you CAN use Haymaker or Jab if you want the AoE damage; however, in this situation, you can make the conscious decision to utilize the effect, or not. And in a situation where you need more AoE, you'd want to take advantage of Impact anyway -- if you don't need Impact at the time (say, if you were focusing on single target damage), you absolutely wouldn't have to trigger it, and you could continue to hammer the enemy in question with single-target attacks just like you would normally.

 

Ultimately, it doesn't particularly alter how Super Strength plays out anyway -- it just adds the benefit of additional AoE damage for a very, very old power set that has one AoE... that shows up at 32 on a Brute, and 38 on a Tanker. I will admit, I'm a big advocate for AE farms, but even with that in mind not everyone wants their character to be a level 50 farm baby and they may prefer to level the traditional way. Catching Super Strength up with other, more modern melee power sets would go a long way to making it less of a slog to level.

 

Quote

Nah. Too fiddly. Don't reinvent, tweak.

 

If I was gonna tweak SS, I'd...

• Remove the -damage from the rage crash (And lower rage +dam by whatever % it needs lowering by to make DPS stay the same).
• Add minor damage to hand clap.
• Reduce hurl animation time.

Doesn't need anything else.

(Quoting America's Angel here, for context -- sorry, I'm dumb and haven't figure out how to quote multiple posters in the same reply yet...)

 

The suggestion as described doesn't reinvent the set at all though. It is a tweak, and IMO one that would be for the better. A passive effect that can be utilized when desired or simply left to happen as part of your attack chain doesn't change or reinvent Super Strength's gameplay.

 

I do wholeheartedly agree that Rage could use some tinkering so that crashing doesn't severely punish your damage AND survivability -- it should be one or the other if either -- and it'd be nice to see Hand Clap and Hurl get some love, one thing to consider is that while these would be very welcome changes (especially for characters that are already 50 and/or have complete IO sets or Incarnate powers), these aren't the only problems Super Strength has as a set.

 

Not to sound like a broken record, but seriously, if a set has literally no area attacks until your character is 32/38 depending on AT, that makes leveling needlessly slow and painful and causes your damage to suffer even at endgame. Foot Stomp is a fantastic power, but a single good AoE attack shouldn't have to singlehandedly carry an entire set's ability to deal area-wide damage -- especially when most of the other sets available have at LEAST two viable AoE powers available, usually well before level 32.

Edited March 26, 2021 by RunoKnows

[Vanden]

10 minutes ago, RunoKnows said:

"Have to" is way different from "can", though. If Impact gets applied, you CAN use Haymaker or Jab if you want the AoE damage; however, in this situation, you can make the conscious decision to utilize the effect, or not. And in a situation where you need more AoE, you'd want to take advtange of Impact anyway -- if you don't need Impact at the time (say, if you were focusing on single target damage), you absolutely wouldn't have to trigger it, and you could continue to hammer the enemy in question with single-target attacks just like you would normally.

This is all stuff you'd have to think about that you don't have to think about now when playing SS. That's going to change how the set feels to play.

[VinceBlood]

9 minutes ago, Vanden said:

This is all stuff you'd have to think about that you don't have to think about now when playing SS. That's going to change how the set feels to play.

 

I don't change how I think about playing Rad Melee when I contaminate someone.  I just keep punching.  It's passive.  No orange rings telling you what to press next, no rotation changes...  just extra, small-scale AoE on the weakest 3 attacks of the set to give it some parity with newer melee.

 

You can also just say you don't like it (instead of what seems like overcomplicating the original idea) which is fine.

[RunoKnows]

13 minutes ago, Vanden said:

This is all stuff you'd have to think about that you don't have to think about now when playing SS. That's going to change how the set feels to play.

How? Impact ideally wouldn't be implemented as a combo system; if it worked more like Titan Weapons' Momentum or the combo system for Street Justice where you would punish yourself and miss out on damage if you neglected to make use of Momentum/Combo windows, I feel like that argument might hold some water. However, as it is, it sounds like it would be more like what @VinceBlood noted -- a passive proc that just happens as you attack.

 

Nothing would force you to suddenly stop using other attacks just to use Impact when it's going. You don't have to change anything about your playstyle unless you feel some overwhelming compulsion to hit Jab or Punch to fire off Impact whenever possible. And to be frank, if that's what would happen to you if SS was redesigned in this fashion, you might not want to touch sets like Radiation Melee.

[twozerofoxtrot]

3 hours ago, Vanden said:

That's going to change how the set feels to play.

 

I think that's the point of the proposed changes, as it currently feels really bad to play before you get Knockout Blow and Foot Stomp. I straight up accept your premise and embrace it.

 

That's not even a hot take. It's basically a meme within our subculture about how painful it is to play: we never see SS brutes and tankers when Posi/Synapse/Citadel WST time rolls around. Personally, I'd like to have fun with my SS main on low level TFs. 

 

It's fair if you don't feel that way but you're going to be in the minority. 

 

Edited March 26, 2021 by twozerofoxtrot
I mespilled a werd.

[Wavicle]

It'd also be nice if KO blow was faster, but I love the animation so I don't know...

[somenewt]

Granting for adding damage to hand clap (Maybe also a minor -res or -def debuff like other sonic attacks?) and replacing Jab with Punch as the T1 and putting in something like Cross Punch, would it be too much to make Hurl a targeted AOE? 

I'm really into the idea of reworking SS. It's honestly one of my favorite sets because of the concept. I just... don't feel super strong while using it though 😞

[Teirusu]

This is what I suggested in another similar thread.

 

 

Make Haymaker the T1 power, everyone wants Haymaker.  Make Punch the T2 power so it's skippable.  Move Jab in Haymaker's spot, make it a small AOE like Crosspunch.  I'm sure someone can make a decent attack chain based on those with everything else in the set.  This gives it an low-end AOE power that doesn't add too much to SS in the high-end since Foot Stomp is already pretty good.

 

Buffing Hurl doesn't really make much sense.  It's already one of the better ranged single-target attack powers that melee characters already have access too within their primary/secondary sets.  Epic snipes not counting...  And turning it into a ranged targetted AOE?  Again, that's pretty much epic pool category for melee types.

Buffing Handclap would be a better idea.  An additional debuff be nice.. maybe damage.  But, at that point, someone needs to look at Stone Melee too and basically do the same thing...

 

As far as Rage goes, I'd still want an alternate version with no stacking or crash.  I just think it's a bad mechanic that that we have to put it on auto but I guess it isn't that much different then click-mez buffs, in that regard.  The problem with reducing the Tohit and Damage buff on the power isn't quite as simple as reducing it some percentage.  Due to the crash, you have basically no DPS during it.  So the Damage buff on it might have to reduced quite a bit to make up for that, not just a small percentage.  On the other hand, Powerhouse was fine with having no crash when the power wasn't stacked.