A note on Rune of Protection changes

[Peacemoon]

Maybe it’s best to make these changes as part of a wider package of changes for Origin powers and maybe a wider conversation about exactly how powerful they are and should expected to be.

 

A lot of the power pool attacks for instance are not worth taking over attacks people get from the primary/secondary sets, and this seems by design. But also makes them a bit redundant. Such as Sorcery attack. Which feeds into this convo regarding RoP.

[Sovera]

It's a bit late, but, I agree if the dev team has their mind set they should come out and say it straight out rather than let things progress for pages and pages.

 

 

I don't take RoP, never did. Saw I could alternate it etc etc, but didn't like the Sorcery pool. So I have no beef in this, no vested interested either way.

 

But. Jimmy, I've said this in the other thread and I'll repeat it. All this constant effort achieves one thing and is add things to the pile that players never take other than on a lark.

 

What is the point of saying we have 150 power picks then only 20 are actually useful and actually picked by the population? Is there really a need to reduce it to 19 powers?

[Haijinx]

58 minutes ago, arcane said:

I just want to say that I overall reject the argument that a power is underpowered if it is not taken as often as Hasten/CJ/Weave/Maneuvers because I think that’s a spurious correlation that has more to do with players in this game deciding that +def and +recharge are the most valuable metrics than it has to do with the other options necessarily being bad at what they do.

 

Why would it be?  After all, you wouldn't take ROP as any Melee Class, or Sentinel, or VEAT, or Kheld.   At least not typically.   So it makes sense its chosen less often.   

 

 

====

Overall, this thread amazes me.  This seems to be the end result of allowing so much Power Creep happen.  People feel entitled to it.  

[Haijinx]

6 minutes ago, Sovera said:

What is the point of saying we have 150 power picks then only 20 are actually useful and actually picked by the population? Is there really a need to reduce it to 19 powers?

 

 

ROP would still be quite useful for what the advocates are saying they want it for though.  Just not as useful. 

[arcane]

4 minutes ago, Sovera said:

What is the point of saying we have 150 power picks then only 20 are actually useful and actually picked by the population? Is there really a need to reduce it to 19 powers?

This is plainly hyperbole since “only X are actually picked” is immediately falsifiable by a single glance at all the builds picking those powers. Stop. Using. This. Fallacy. There is not one pool in this game I have never picked, so the argument is utterly meaningless to me. 

[Blackbird71]

1 hour ago, Jimmy said:

A power doesn't need to be highly picked in order for it to be deemed as overperforming.

 

In other words, "No."

Frankly, I find this response to be more troubling than any power change I disagree with.  

[Coyote]

3 hours ago, Jimmy said:

There are some unrelated concerns which may certainly be valid but are not reasons to keep RoP in its current state:

• The rest of Sorcery is underwhelming: I agree with this. Perhaps it would’ve made more sense to adjust RoP at the same time Sorcery was looked at, but there’s no telling if and when that would happen. Either way, Sorcery not being great in general is not a valid reason for RoP being as strong as it is. It shouldn’t need to be strong enough to justify 3 picks - each of those picks should justify themselves.
• The other Origin Pool T5s are underwhelming: Maybe. I actually feel this is more related to the above point - the Origin pools are in general underwhelming, which means for Force of Will and Experimentation you need to take two underwhelming powers in order to pick up an OK power - and that OK power isn’t strong enough to carry the entire pool in the same way that RoP is.

 

Thank you. I'm glad to see this put forth from the Dev team also. I agree with basically everything here, and also with the unfortunate fact that while the Power Pools (including Origin Pools) could use some rebalancing... Dev time may not be available for it.

 

I hope that if there is time, they will get reasonable consideration about being rebalanced, and then RoP will just be a good power available after taking two other decent-to-good powers, and then the opportunity cost for it won't be as high and it won't have to be so good in order to get picked. But until then, there are a lot of Ninjas and Mercs to be fixed, and a lot of Regeneration characters to be nerfed, and I'm sure that'll take time.

[ForeverLaxx]

8 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

This seems to be the end result of allowing so much Power Creep happen.  People feel entitled to it. 

How is one power that is demonstrably weaker than the "standard" high Defense build contributing to Power Creep?

[arcane]

*message deleted for futility reasons

Edited March 30, 2021 by arcane

[EnjoyTheJourney]

The in-game experience isn't determined at the level of individual powers (ie: trees); rather, it's the builds that can be put together with specific powers in them that matter (ie: the forest). But, the level of analysis being cited here to supporting nerfing RoP is the "tree" level; this is very clear when the lack of value of other sorcery powers to take with rune is waved aside as a reason to delay the planned nerf to RoP.

 

And, at the level of "the forest" in-game builds with RoP in them are not meta and don't even overperform. Or, if there are specific builds for which they overperform then there are likely to be ways to manage that without nerfing duration and making RoP thoroughly unappealing to a broad range of builds for which it is not overperforming. 

Edited March 31, 2021 by EnjoyTheJourney

[ForeverLaxx]

3 minutes ago, arcane said:

Did you read a word of Jimmy’s posts?

Enough to respond directly to it. I'm not going to repeat anything I said there to you. Read the post if you care.

 

EDIT: leaving my post and your quoted response to me. If you can't stand by something you post, don't post it then delete it

Edited March 30, 2021 by ForeverLaxx

[Mezmera]

59 minutes ago, arcane said:

Sure, but my point is that those powers are only considered high performing because they contain the two most popular bonuses in the game. It doesn’t really matter, for instance, how good Medicine is at healing, because the playerbase is too addicted to defense and recharge to notice. Just explaining how RoP could be simultaneously powerful and not super popular.

 

Addiction I don't think is the applicable wording.  I'd say more fundamentally based in the optimal functions to attain. 

 

Not many take medicine because if you're not being hit why would you need heals?  With my squishies that have capped defenses if something random does get through I have a few greens designated toward healing without wasting one of my power pool selections.  Recharge allows you to cut the fat out of so many things like attack chains and just makes all of the tools in your kit that much more useful. 

 

   

[arcane]

4 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

 

Addiction I don't think is the applicable wording.  I'd say more fundamentally based in the optimal functions to attain. 

 

Not many take medicine because if you're not being hit why would you need heals?  With my squishies that have capped defenses if something random does get through I have a few greens designated toward healing without wasting one of my power pool selections.  Recharge allows you to cut the fat out of so many things like attack chains and just makes all of the tools in your kit that much more useful. 

 

   

You are validating my point for me that popularity isn't based on how good a power is at achieving its function. RoP isn’t unpopular because it was never overtuned; it’s merely unpopular because there’s no defense or recharge bonuses to be found in the whole pool.

Edited March 30, 2021 by arcane

[siolfir]

3 minutes ago, arcane said:

You are validating my point for me that it popularity isn't based on how good a power is at achieving its function. RoP isn’t unpopular because it was never overtuned; it’s merely unpopular because there’s no defense or recharge bonuses to be found in the whole pool.

Or it's unpopular because its utility is irrelevant with sufficient defense. If you don't get hit, you don't need to resist the damage you didn't take. Similarly, by not getting hit by a mez there is no need for protection from it.

 

I'm not arguing that there's power creep going on here. I just think that you're looking in the wrong place as to where it is.

[arcane]

2 minutes ago, siolfir said:

Or it's unpopular because its utility is irrelevant with sufficient defense. If you don't get hit, you don't need to resist the damage you didn't take. Similarly, by not getting hit by a mez there is no need for protection from it.

 

I'm not arguing that there's power creep going on here. I just think that you're looking in the wrong place as to where it is.

If that is the case, the implication is naturally that the forum pvper population will never consider these pools worthwhile until each one provides +def or +rech. Hard no vote on homogenizing the game like that.

 

But yes you as well have validated my hypothesis that RoP’s usefulness is not well correlated with its popularity because it doesn’t matter what its use is if it’s not +def or +rech.

Edited March 30, 2021 by arcane

[BRADICAL]

1 minute ago, EnjoyTheJourney said:

And, at the level of "the forest" in-game builds with RoP in them are not meta and don't even overperform. Or, if there are specific builds for which they overperform then there are likely to be ways to manage that without nerfing duration and making RoP thoroughly unappealing to a broad range of builds for which it is not overperforming. 

I think the lens has been on those handful of squishy builds that are capable of overperforming (and I stress: relative to their peers, not the game at large). Time/X defenders, X/Dark controllers, not so different from when power boost was in the crosshairs. This is another direct nerf to those builds. I have several characters using those powersets, and while they are strong they're also exhausting to play, and still don't manage to come anywhere near most tankers in terms of survivability or damage.

And with this RoP nerf, they become demonstrably less fun than builds that can reach for the stars without nearly as much of an investment both build-wise and energy-wise.

[siolfir]

Just now, arcane said:

If that is the case, the implication is naturally that the forum pvper population will never consider these pools worthwhile until each one provides +def or +rech. Hard no vote on homogenizing the game like that.

And yet, by weakening the powers that provide alternatives to simply more +def and/or +rech, you're indirectly homogenizing the game. That's why I'm arguing against a nerf for a power I don't consider useful enough to take - because I think it's good enough to be tempting with the 90 second uptime, but in my opinion it doesn't work as well as permanently accessible options which I chose to go with instead. I like the idea of it being tempting as an alternative.

[ForeverLaxx]

2 minutes ago, BRADICAL said:

 I have several characters using those powersets, and while they are strong they're also exhausting to play, and still don't manage to come anywhere near most tankers in terms of survivability or damage.

This is the part I keep coming back to. Builds with RoP in them are active, cycling powers to keep things going and don't tend to have enough powers to keep these armor cooldowns on 100% of the time. Even with high recharge, RoP isn't getting permanent uptime so you have to weave in other defense/resist powers you have from other sources. It's active, relatively intense gameplay as far as CoH is concerned. People complain about having to watch Domination or Hasten, depending on which they didn't auto-cast. Using RoP in this manner is even more involved than that.

 

Compare that to just building high recharge and Defense. You set Hasten on auto and proceed to spam your nukes every other spawn, with two filler AoEs for the in-between spawns. There's literally nothing else to do because your defenses are covered and you only have one clicky to worry about so it's on auto. RoP builds are far more active than this and still don't protect you as well in the long term. Read: RoP builds are weaker than the standard setup.

 

But for some reason, RoP is overtuned.

[Kanil]

8 minutes ago, arcane said:

If that is the case, the implication is naturally that the forum pvper population will never consider these pools worthwhile until each one provides +def or +rech. Hard no vote on homogenizing the game like that.

 what are you talking about? where did anyone say that? you're off on a weird tangent puttin words in people's mouths and makin strange assumptions about build preferences. 

 

i don't really get the implication at all and given im one of the fellas who'd like to see some numbers i don't really get the point of puttin words in my mouth besides fulfillin this weird axe you seem to want to grind with "rech and def building"

 

what am i missin here

 

edit:

damnit, forgot again: obligatory demand for toggle full auto

Edited March 30, 2021 by Kanil

[Hew]

Spring attack is not as good as shield charge or lightning rod. It is a T5. 

 

That is one of many. The gap between spring attack and RoP is like, 10 light years. Other T5s have the same gap. RoP borders on equivalency with t9 primary/secondary powers, and in some cases, exceeds it.

 

That is not normal. Else, spring attack would be on the same playing field as either lrod or scharge.

[PirateCrew]

1 hour ago, Jimmy said:

This right here is very important. You're correct that this is the argument many opponents of this change are making.

 

But this argument also requires that requires you to admit RoP is overtuned, and that it deserves to be overtuned because of its lacklustre prerequisites. And that right there is the part we disagree with. It shouldn't be balanced around carrying three power picks.

 

This is one of the first things I mentioned to Powerhouse after seeing this change, but I quickly realised the problem wasn't RoP being nerfed, it's the other powers which need to be buffed. Again, this is just my opinion and not a confirmation of out plans, but the rest of the pool really does need some love.

 

Let's assume for a moment that we collectively treat this as the main logical argument behind whether RoP should be nerfed at all.  (I understand that some posters don't.)

Does this at least point to a reasonable path forward that most of us can support or be swayed to favor, including Jimmy, Powerhouse, and other devs who might not have chimed in yet? That is:

 

Preserve RoP as "overtuned" but "deserves to be, for now"... until some future discussion / readjustments to adjacent* powers?

*Not entirely sure how broad this should be.

 

The players have always accepted that we don't control the server's operation.  Our best arguments can only have effect here by swaying, or clarifying, dev ideas. 

Thus, I think the real question is, would the dev team accept that a one-sided RoP adjustment shouldn't occur until the broader intended change can be considered and bundled with it?

 

The current approach, which feels like instantly nerfing it in a vacuum, is really unsatisfying to me - both as a player, and as a human who just likes the world to contain more well-understood outcomes.  Tentative mentions of a broader plan are faintly better.  Why not go one step further?  If we (players) can accept that RoP contains an overconcentration of power within itself, pause the nerf while that excess is spread around, and maybe also consider adjusting competitor powers/sets - sounds far better IMO than the path we've been set on.

[Crasical]

Yeah, I can understand this. 
I hated the lack of mez protection on my warshade.
"Just take Rune of Protection" was the end of the conversation.
He's not a wizard though, and I don't wanna.

[Mezmera]

5 minutes ago, arcane said:

If that is the case, the implication is naturally that the forum pvper population will never consider these pools worthwhile until each one provides +def or +rech. Hard no vote on homogenizing the game like that.

 

I take Unleash Potential which has lots of defense in it plus Force of Will pool has some good power choices outside of that one power.  I tend to like to buck the trend and be my unique little butterfly self and pass on Combat Jumping but I do still take Hasten/Tough/Weave/Leadership.  

 

First and foremost I like to stitch up my defenses and get good recharge, then it's on to hp and resistances.  Since my SR stalker has capped defenses pretty easy it's a nice balance to the set I feel to have RoP and has tanked Lord Recluse on the MLTF with it.  My new EM/Invuln is all that and a bag of skittles better without RoP so it's all semantics.  

[Mezmera]

5 minutes ago, siolfir said:

And yet, by weakening the powers that provide alternatives to simply more +def and/or +rech, you're indirectly homogenizing the game. That's why I'm arguing against a nerf for a power I don't consider useful enough to take - because I think it's good enough to be tempting with the 90 second uptime, but in my opinion it doesn't work as well as permanently accessible options which I chose to go with instead. I like the idea of it being tempting as an alternative.

 

Exacatively!

[arcane]

7 minutes ago, siolfir said:

And yet, by weakening the powers that provide alternatives to simply more +def and/or +rech, you're indirectly homogenizing the game. That's why I'm arguing against a nerf for a power I don't consider useful enough to take - because I think it's good enough to be tempting with the 90 second uptime, but in my opinion it doesn't work as well as permanently accessible options which I chose to go with instead. I like the idea of it being tempting as an alternative.

I’d live with a nerf to Hasten, Weave, etc. to level the playing field a little for power gamers that need that extra incentive. But I get the strong feeling that’s not what *anyone* wants.