Hero's Vs Villains

[Xeres]

I just like Blue side better.  And I really, really don't like first ward and night ward.  Blue I can avoid those.  Red, not as easy.

 

Edit: Which brings me to something that I don't get.  I don't remember the original Red storylines drying up so quickly on live at CoV's release, but it seems now there isn't as much Red content without traveling to First / Dark Ward.  At release of CoV, I don't think there was First / Dark Ward so you went right up to 50 in Red Zones IIRC.  I don't know when that was changed but I am -not- a fan of it.

Edited April 14, 2021 by Xeres

[GastlyGibus]

There was also a reason that came up frequently in the thread linked earlier, the discussion for how to increase population redside. That reason was the issue of motive.

 

It basically boils down to this: while every hero has their own unique backstory and history, as well a reasons for being a hero, a hero's motive is mainly reactive. A hero reacts to situations that come up. It doesn't matter if the Council is raiding some lab, if the Devouring Earth are trashing some office, or the Circle of Thorns have kidnapped somebody, the hero is going to have a reason to go to all of those areas and stop it, because the hero's motive is to help people and save the day, no matter the circumstances.

For villains, it's quite different. It's a lot harder to write content for villains because, while they share the same intricacies and backstories of heroes, a villains motives are primarily proactive. The villain doesn't react to situations; the villain creates situations of their own, and a each villain's motive differs drastically. Let's say I get a mission redside: some contact wants me to go beat up a Council boss. What if I don't want to? What if my villain doesn't have beef with the Council? Maybe my villain is after chaos and destruction rather than money and infamy? It becomes much more difficult to write content for villains this way, since you have to take into account every player's own unique motives for being a villain.

For me, personally, this isn't a problem. I can usually work around these things and invent a reason for my character to do it, even if it doesn't "fit" with their motivations, but for other players it's not so simple. Some players get really invested in their characters, and it becomes jarring to suddenly have a contact give you a mission that your villain would never have a reason to do. For heroes this issue never really comes up, because like I mentioned before, no matter what the situation is, the hero's motivation is always to save the day and protect the innocent. For villains, they each have their own reasons. Some villains want money, some want power, some want carnage and destruction, and some have a personal vendetta against society. Their motives are all different, and thus their actions differ as well, and it becomes more difficult to properly get into character for a villain when working within the confines of a video game.

[BjorJlen]

   So insightful anf true @GastlyGibus. If i could give you three likes I would. Reactive vs Proactive; suns up Heroes vs Villians quite well me thinks. Good job pointing that out in such a specific intelligent way. 🙂

[MTeague]

41 minutes ago, Xeres said:

I just like Blue side better.  And I really, really don't like first ward and night ward.  Blue I can avoid those.  Red, not as easy.

 

Edit: Which brings me to something that I don't get.  I don't remember the original Red storylines drying up so quickly on live at CoV's release, but it seems now there isn't as much Red content without traveling to First / Dark Ward.  At release of CoV, I don't think there was First / Dark Ward so you went right up to 50 in Red Zones IIRC.  I don't know when that was changed but I am -not- a fan of it.

 

.... I'm confused. 

I mean, I *am* a big praetoria fan, and I like the wards, but that's neither here nor there.  The point is, they remain 100% optional.

 

There's still plenty of Redside content. You can easily ding 50 redside without going near praetoria. I've done it on several redsiders on Excelsior.

However, there are certainly stretches where you might need to do a Mayhem mission to be introduced to your next contact. 

Whereas Blueside, every contact and his brother introduces you to more contacts every couple of missions, just for the asking. 

 

Were you not doing newspaper/mayhems?

[Xeres]

Well, I didn't seem to be able to avoid the Wards as much as I wanted to.  I'd be completely out of story arc missions by mid 32, including the mayhem missions and new contacts.  My last red char I did nothing but newspaper and mayhem missions from 32 to 34 which was a chore because I wasn't going to the wards again.  Then I found MSR and it was all good.

 

My point though is this quest drought was most certainly not there nor was the wards and I had 0 problem leveling villains to cap via contacts and newspaper / mayhem missions on live.

Edited April 14, 2021 by Xeres

[GastlyGibus]

I honestly feel like the problem can be easily remedied by just forming teams of your own. Redside teams might take a little longer to fill up with seven other players, but there are a lot of players out there who do have villain characters. Once they see you posting your ad for a redside team, just give it a little more time, you'll be running with an 8-man group soon enough. A lot of people have villains they don't play because there aren't many teams. They see you in there advertising for a group? Some of them might say "Whoa, a redside group? Let me go grab my villain!"

 

"If you build it, they will come."

Edited April 14, 2021 by GastlyGibus

[MTeague]

33 minutes ago, Xeres said:

My point though is this quest drought was most certainly not there nor was the wards and I had 0 problem leveling villains to cap via contacts and newspaper / mayhem missions on live.

 

Strange. I accept that for whatever reason your character wasn't given new contacts. 

 

All I can say is if anything I had too many contacts at that point, and had to choose to whether to turn off XP or to accept that I'd be outlevelling several of them and then need to move onto Grandville. Though I also did quite a few Tip missions around then.  But there are quite a number of redside arcs in the 30's.

 

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Villain_Story_Arcs

• some are 30-34  (nerva + st martial)
• some are 30-39  (st martial)
• some are 35-39  (nerva + st martial)

[MTeague]

does looks like a couple contacts are badge locked though. I commonly get several of those badges during other arcs, or when I see someone else calling out for a beatdown on Scrapyard, etc.  Gennerally smacking around the Family because Family.  But could explain why you didn't get some options.  

 

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Unlockable_Contacts

 

I could see having some of those requirements relaxed.

[TemporalVileTerror]

I do find it particularly interesting that different people have completely diametric opinions on the "sameness" of Redside and Blueside zones.  There's probably a research paper in there determining which elements these players notice, which ones they remember, and how those players' cognitive mapping of memories relate to those features and their experience/opinion of the Zones.

 

My own view tends to align with @GastlyGibus' in that I have wholly memorized the Redside zones by the massive number of big and small landmarks scattered around the maps.  The two exclusions being Mercy Island (I rarely go off the beaten path there, and I rarely have need to go back and explore the zone at later levels) and certain parts of Grandville (like the FAB) since I've rarely had characters with a high enough level to safely go exploring in those spaces.

 

Meanwhile, without flight/vertical travel or a map and/or compass, I am hopelessly lost in Steel Canyon, Skyway, Indie Port, and Founders' Falls.  Atlas Park, Galaxy City, and Kings Row I've spent enough time in to loosely memorize, and they're all relatively small.  Brickstown has the Zig as a nice huge visual landmark, making it much easier to navigate, and Peregine's main island is pretty small, despite the Zone itself being huge.  
Perez?  Fuggin' forgeddabowt it!  Boomtown?  Yeah right!  Croatoa?  The university is -> that way?

 

Buuuuuuut anyway, that's just one small aspect to all of this.

The matter of agency and authority is also a huge one, as mentioned (numerous times in numerous places).  What's most frustrating about that is that there's an easy solve:  Drop the text which hijacks the player-character's motivation, feelings, and actions.  Switch from second-person "you"/"your" statements, and present information matter-of-factly for the player to apply to their character in a way the player sees fit.

Expanding beyond that is also possible, as demonstrated with the writing demonstrated in many, many indie games over the past fifteen years (probably more too, further back, but I'm less familiar at that point).  As a story arc Dev, they may have failed on the second-person hijackery threshold, but @holymittens absolutely NAILED IT with a proof-of-concept on the Rogue arc's finale.  I strongly recommend everyone gives that arc a try.  ( https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Bobby_Curtin )

 

With support given to the writers who are fit to do the work, we could have a whole pile of arcs which deliver on the Redside promise of:  Villains Act!  Heroes React.

The question becomes:  How do we express the import and value of that to those who make the decisions?

[Giovanni Valia]

The redside population thing has always been a problem for a lot of reasons. People go where the action is on an MMO, and that happens to mostly be on blue (hero) side. I only play redside, and will often join PUGs if I see someone in LFG recruiting for teams. On villain-side, the missions are better written, characters more interesting, and players generally more fun.

[Zhym]

15 hours ago, Soyuz said:

 

This, basically. I like the architecture and general feel of the Redside zones and a good villainous origin story can be a joy to write. The actual missions can be problematic, however.

 

As someone who ran every red side arc not long ago, then went through with a toon who did most of the hero and villain missions by switching alignments a lot (that got narratively weird), I'll offer a different take: while there are some problematic red side story arcs, most of them tend more toward cartoon villainy.  Some of the most fun arcs in the game are in the Rogue Isles—the problem is that most of those arcs are in the mid to high levels.  The low-level missions don't do a good job of showcasing how fun being a bad guy can (eventually) be.

 

The truly dark red side arcs are rare, IMO.  "Johnny's Main Squeeze" (from Jezebel Jones (35-40, St. Martial)) is the worst, IMO.  It's not dark so much as creepy: you're supposed to kidnap a woman who Johnny "Any Resemblance to Frank Sinatra is Purely Coincidental" Sonata has decided is going to be his woman—whether she wants to be or not.  Yeah, I'll pass on the "accessory to sexual assault" story arc, thanks.  Lt. Harris (5-7, Mercy Island) suffers from the same problem.  The other arc that made me feel like I needed a shower was Westin Phipps (Grandville, 40-44)—destroying books?  Really?  I may be a villain, but I'm not a cretin!  And that may not even be the worst thing about Phipps.  But it's a well-written arc, IMO, and one that rewards reading the clues.

 

But there are so many fun red side arcs.  Some of my favorites include:

• Radio (Port Oakes, 10-14) and Television (Grandville, 40-45) 
• Brother Hammond (Cap au Diable, 15-24).  He's a Luddite—so you will never be able to call him.  Because he's a Luddite!  I love little details like that.
• Willy Wheeler (Cap au Diable, 15-19).  Poor Willy.  He wants to be a player, but he's so not.
• Dean MacArthur (20-29) and Leonard (20-29).  This is where you can really start feeling like you're coming into your own as a villain.  Plus, it's got a classic cartoon storyline and one of the tougher missions in the game, depending on your AT.
• Darrin Wade (Sharkhead Isle, 20-30).  Yeah, it's pretty lame that of all the villains the live devs chose to kill off Statesman, it was this mid-level schmoe.  Still, his arc introduces a lot of lore that comes up later, so this is still a worthy contact IMO.
• Operative Vargas (20-24).  Vargas is what you get if an Arachnos soldier gets an MBA.  His dialog is hilarious.
• Bobby Curtain (Nerva Archipelago, 25-29).  This is for rogues only, but it's an unusual arc and well worth switching alignments for.
• Johnny Sonata (St. Martia, 35-39). Although I don't like Jezebel Jones's arc, Johnny's own mission arc has a really good story.
• Vernon von Grun (Grandville, 45-50).  Now this is a cackling cartoon villain!  I love von Gun's arc.
• Efficiency Expert Pither (Grandville, 45-50)
• Ambassador Kur'Rekt (Grandville, 40-44)
• Mr. G (St. Martial, 30-50).  I think Mr. G's arc may be a better post-fall-of-Praetoria story than the hero equivalent.  Recruiting a team of henchman makes you feel like you've become a real power.  (I'd wait to do it at level 50+ after the Dark Astoria and incarnate trials, where it makes more sense in the overall story).

Maybe it's blasphemy, but I think the red side endgame is much better than blue side.  For heroes (mine, anyway), levels 40-50 are basically Tina McIntyre and Maria Jenkins, and that's about it.  The other story arcs in that level range are really long and mostly date back to Issue 1—which means lots of unnecessary defeat-all missions and other mission-design sins that the devs were smart to move away from in later issues.  But villains have so much to choose from at high levels.  And the high levels are where things really get fun for a villain, especially if you held off on the Mr. G and Pandora's Box stories.  Get yourself some minions, challenge Lord Recluse, beat up some heroes, and basically rule!  Plus, the arcs tend to be short, which I prefer to the Issue 1 marathons on red side.

 

I even like the patron arcs.  Yes, they're all basically the same, and if "betraying" the patron is going to be such a major point (I mean, Scirocco in particular just won't stop whining about it), there ought to be a bigger element of choice.  But they're pretty good at creating a feeling of moving up in the world of villainy. 

 

So, yeah.  tl;dr: There's a lot I like about red side. 

Edited April 15, 2021 by Zhym

[GastlyGibus]

2 hours ago, Zhym said:

(I mean, Scirocco in particular just won't stop whining about it)

Okay, so maybe I'm slightly sadistic, but Scirocco just cracks me up. You beat him and he's just... so hopelessly, utterly defeated in all of his dialogue from then on. It's honestly some of the funniest stuff.

"You do your work well, as always. I am certain that Vortigur will surrender his secrets in time. No one can resist. Why bother? All is meaningless, in the end."

Like, man. You just broke him. It's that kind of writing that makes me love redside over blueside. Blueside writing is just... "yay! You saved the day again! You're the bestest hero ever!"

[MTeague]

3 hours ago, Zhym said:

I even like the patron arcs.  Yes, they're all basically the same, and if "betraying" the patron is going to be such a major point (I mean, Scirocco in particular just won't stop whining about it), there ought to be a bigger element of choice. 

This I agree with completely.

 

I actually think you should be allowed to choose to NOT betray Sirocco, and do your level best to help him achieve his scheme.

You should be railroaded into off-camera failure.... You succeeded at this, but it turned out there was a vital component he was missing, or was otherwise sabtotaged by someone ELSE, so that his gambit ultimately fails... but you the player should have the choice of trying to help even if the ultimate outcome is still the same. 

[Zhym]

4 hours ago, GastlyGibus said:

Okay, so maybe I'm slightly sadistic, but Scirocco just cracks me up. You beat him and he's just... so hopelessly, utterly defeated in all of his dialogue from then on. It's honestly some of the funniest stuff.

"You do your work well, as always. I am certain that Vortigur will surrender his secrets in time. No one can resist. Why bother? All is meaningless, in the end."

That’s part of why I also think that red side is a better lead-in to the Dark Astoria arcs.  Heroes don’t have any reason to know who the heck this Scirocco guy is or why he’s such a mope.  A red sider who did Darrin Wade’s arcs would also have met (and defeated) Kadabra Kill and Sigil—which the Dark Astoria text will acknowledge.  Praetor Duncan is less obnoxious to villains than she is to heroes, as a nice bonus, and Max’s optional missions only make sense if you’re a bad guy.  You can even choose a payoff to the whole thing that’s more villainous than just saving the world (which is a heroic thing to do, but red siders get a villain-y reason to do it).  With the extra dialogue options you get if you’ve done First Ward (as a hero or villain), the best way to run Dark Astoria is with a villain who did the Praetorian content and Scirocco (or Ghost Widow).

 

I also like Black Scorpion’s reaction to your inevitable (and unavoidable) betrayal: he basically complains about it once then moves on.  Despite saying he won’t forget what you did, he barely mentions it after that.  It’s kind of a shame that his arcs aren’t as good a setup for the endgame as Scirocco’s, because I like how Black Scorpion essentially acknowledges that you (as character and player) had no real choice.
 

 

Edited April 15, 2021 by Zhym

[Placta]

3 hours ago, Zhym said:

Max’s optional missions only make sense if you’re a bad guy.

 

I love the writing on Max as a hero.

 

"I can tell you where the Knives' base is. Taking it out is not going to be easy, so I can offer help from three Malta agents. Unfortunately, you'll have to spring them from custody."
"Pass. Let's just do the thing."

"Fine, works for me."

 

Unfortunately, SCORE/Homecoming went and tied a badge to Max's optional missions. By time I found that out, it was just one more in the pile of badges I had decided not to do, but it did kill the last chance I would change my mind.

[Bastille Boy]

I start most of my toons on redside for eccentric backstory reasons. The Rogue Isles has a police force, so they must have jails or prisons, but we never hear about them in the game. (The only redside prison we hear about is the Zag, run by Longbow.) So I made something up. Most of my toons are either corruptional officers or prisoners out on "work release." Stealing things and turning over the proceeds is considered "work."

 

I always bring my high-level toons over to blueside for a while to get accolades. The easiest way to get all four accolades is to get three on blueside and one on redside...and that one redside accolade is easiest to get if you first run a blueside arc. It's not that hard to get all four accolades on blueside, if you're willing to run some annoying older task forces. Getting all four accolades on redside is tricky.

[Neiska]

Redside is Best Side! We have Cookies, Taco Tuesdays, No Pants Fridays, and better Dental Coverage!

[arcane]

For me? (1) peer pressure because everyone else is doin’ it and (2) hero side has waaay better natural lighting.

[BjorJlen]

1 hour ago, Neiska said:

Redside is Best Side! We have Cookies, Taco Tuesdays, No Pants Fridays, and better Dental Coverage!

   Hmmm... Cookies AND a dental plan? Woah... now I am reconsidering things... sorry, not really. As a old cat used to say, Blue side rules, and red side drools lol. Just kidding... its a joke... hey, why are you villians all looking at me... that... way... (backs up slowly, and then turning around beats feet!  lol 🤪)

 

   Peace...

[Troo]

20 hours ago, Zhym said:

Some of the most fun arcs in the game are in the Rogue Isles

+1

[ForeverLaxx]

On 4/14/2021 at 11:42 AM, GastlyGibus said:

That reason was the issue of motive

I think the original devs tried to mimic this sort of thing by locking contacts behind a string of mayhem missions or badges in order to simulate the idea that you're "being your own villain" until someone with power/influence notices and wants your talents for their own purposes.

 

I'm not sure if it feels that way in practice but I always felt this was the intention of that system. As the game progressed and new content was added, though, this system could be mostly bypassed with the new optional content that followed the more traditional contact model as expressed hero-side.

[MTeague]

re:  motive, 

it would not be unthinkable for some Heroes, and especially Vigilantes, to have an occasional Proactive arc. 

or even if you consider it reactive, it would be reactive to historical events.

 

example of Hypothetical mission text:

Spoiler

Enough is enough. Crey has gotten away with too much, and slimed they're way out of court too many times to count. Hero after Hero and tried, and nothing has stuck. They're too well-connected. So I'm putting this cabal together... those of us, who they call Vigilantes, who have had enough. We are hunting down Countess Crey, and we are going to murder her. Yea, I said "murder". No sugarcoating it. We know what kind of menace Crey represents, and we can't afford to be squeamish. I don't care if the Countess is handing out cookies to kindergarteners. If we have a chance, we take it. Hell, if she is giving out cookies, they're probably infused with nanobots to warp the kids into being Crey minions later on, anyway. Once she's dead, we go after the rest of Crey's board. And all their high powered lawyers. One after another after another until they're all dead. But this stays on the down low. No one breathes a word of this outside this room. We can't afford to be betrayed.

 

That could especially work if player is given a moral choice a few points along the arc.... are they REALLY down with this?  Is this a bridge too far, making them no better than Captain Mako? Or is it just the hard choice that the Freedom Phalanx never had the stones to make?

 

I mean, there are limits. Countess Crey is unlikely to *really* be killed off in any official story arc. 

Or if she was, she'd be replaced by a clone the next day, etc.  Some things might be doomed to fail. 

But I could see certain groups trying to go for it, because in-character, they would have every reason to think it would succeed.

 

 

For a less Vigilante-minded one: 

Spoiler

We have a problem. It's been a rough too many years. The Medi-Porters are good, but they have limits. We've still buried too many heroes, to say nothing of what kind of losses the PPD has taken over the past year.  We don't really have enough manpower to fully patrol the whole city anymore.  PPD recruitment has dropped off. Some still join, but an awful lot of the public considers it a great way to die at a young age... and they're not entirely wrong.  We need to consider.... alternative policing measures.

 

What do you mean?

Deputizing certain elements to run certain neighborhoods, freeing up more resources to put where they're needed.

Please tell me you're not talking about giving Independance Port to the Family. I will not stand for that. 

No, nothing like that.  But we could do worse than having the Legacy Chain run Salamanca. Or having the Tsoo watch over parts of Baumton. 

The Tsoo?

We'll have to vet which of them we talk to. But by all accounts, they did a respectable job of looking at the big picture in Dark Astoria. And they were capable enough. Mitsumoto Hagashi was beginning to clear away a lot of wreckage and redevelop parts of it before someone executed him. The Tsoo might have an interest in helping seeing his vision come to fruition. And if we can turn them into a faction that actually works with the law... that's worth a lot in the long run. 

.... It'll take some getting used to.

I know. There's a few other specific individuals we need to try to talk to as well.  We can discuss them more later.  Some of them may not work out. You can't redeem everyone. But we're in enough of a bind, it's worth trying.  Are you in?

 

 

[Grouchybeast]

1 hour ago, ForeverLaxx said:

I think the original devs tried to mimic this sort of thing by locking contacts behind a string of mayhem missions or badges in order to simulate the idea that you're "being your own villain" until someone with power/influence notices and wants your talents for their own purposes.

 

I'm not sure if it feels that way in practice but I always felt this was the intention of that system. As the game progressed and new content was added, though, this system could be mostly bypassed with the new optional content that followed the more traditional contact model as expressed hero-side.

 

Having to run paper missions to get to some of the contacts is one of the things that puts me off playing redside.  I find it so tedious and repetitive.  There should be a corruption option, where my character could just drop a pile of inf and bribe the broker into giving them the next contact.  

[ForeverLaxx]

2 minutes ago, Grouchybeast said:

Having to run paper missions to get to some of the contacts is one of the things that puts me off playing redside.  I find it so tedious and repetitive.

As do I, despite how much I actually like running Redside for the stories and aesthetics. I'm pretty sure this "tedious and repetitive" sentiment is shared by many people and directly contributes to the low population problem. It's basically what I feel the system actually achieves instead of what it intended to achieve.

[Grindingsucks]

I enjoy both PC and the RI.  Praetoria I like, conceptually, but it's so very quiet there.  Also, it feels kind of like the door has closed on the part of the setting, story-wise.  Praetoria has fallen, Tyrant is overthrown, Hamidon runs amok, levelling all the cities and returning everything to nature...

 

... actually, that sounds pretty great.  Can I move there?  😛