Rollback to Issue 19... sort of.

[Ghostship]

I signed up for Homecoming, close to it's launch, in May 2019, but I've only played sporadically, and spent most of my time farming and testing multiple builds in AE.

 

Myself and two friends, who also played back on the live servers, decided it was time to start badge hunting with main characters, so yesterday I started an STF (dating myself), because it's something we did quite a bit in the past.

 

I recruited a mix of ATs which should have been a good team for STF, but quickly realised once we got rolling that there was no need whatsoever. The whole team just piled on the four patrons with complete abandon, then proceeded to ignore Recluse, smash down the yellow and green towers, and tickle Recluse to death. Honestly, I was so disappointed at how ridiculously easy it was.

 

I hadn't realised until this point how much power creep the Incarnate system really introduced (I stopped playing on the live servers just after Alpha slots were added to the game, and it shut down by the time I wanted to return), and I have to say, I don't enjoy the game when ATs serve no real purpose. That's what I loved about CoX; everyone had a role to play and had to work together, but now?

 

I don't think I like the incarnate system. It added what, 7 incarnate trials which were designed for unlocking your incarnate slots? No one does those trials, so being overlevelled only serves to ruin the rest of the game content. Am I missing something here? 

 

I think it would be great to have one Rollback server, with Incarnates disabled entirely. Just think of all the great new content the Homecoming devs could add balanced around the original power level of ATs.

 

For now, my enthusiasm has been sapped by what I witnessed happen to poor old Recluse.

[AerialAssault]

That would be far, far easier said than done I'm afraid. I don't know if there are any other servers out there which have managed to roll back as far as i19.

 

Even were it possible to do, I would have to disagree. It would mean that the already stretched thin development team would have to develop content for the base Homecoming servers and an older server. I believe it would be more efficient to create newer content that is aimed at 50+4. If the Vahzilok arcs are anything to go by then the Homecoming team are more than capable of creating challenging content.

[Alchemystic]

Not likely to happen.

 

The idea of a 'rollback server' has been pitched before, usually to whatever point somebody feels that the game was at it's best... pre-incarnate, pre-IOs, sometimes even all the way back to issue 3.

 

Unfortunatley, Homecoming lacks a means to restore the game to an earlier point in time, and even if they did, I dont think it would be in their best interest to do so since the focus here is moving forward, not looking back.

 

If you want to play the game without incarnates (or IOs for that matter), you are still very much able to do so. Only thing I can advise is to run content at level 45 (or level 44 to be safe) which will disable the use of incarnate powers.

[Ghostship]

Yeh I know, the team doesn't have the time for that kind of thing. I know it's unrealistic, I just wanted to gripe.

 

New content aimed at an op player-base is indeed the only real option. I guess we'll never fully know what the developers had planned regarding future content before the servers shut down.

 

Suggesting that I am welcome to play without using incarnates myself isn't a solution to anything though, and just amounts to obvious internet contrarianism. The rest of the team will still all be acting like that one scrapper on the team in the old days, who had something to prove and ran off soloing.

 

I suppose that unless a new, higher difficulty setting is made available to alpha unlocked players and above, it seems the old TFs, which I always considered the most fun content in the game, are limited to leveling characters only. 

[Andreah]

3 hours ago, Sasquatch said:

No one does those trials

I would take issue with this statement.

 

On Everlasting, we have several trials being run every day, with a very active set of regular trial organizers/leaders, and several others who do extra casual and badge-specific runs. 

[Ghostship]

20 minutes ago, Andreah said:

I would take issue with this statement.

 

On Everlasting, we have several trials being run every day, with a very active set of regular trial organizers/leaders, and several others who do extra casual and badge-specific runs. 

Noted, thank you very much. We haven't been playing on either of the more populated servers. Maybe we'll give that a go!

[Heraclea]

Probably easier to make a TF toggle that switches off incarnate powers, or active incarnate powers. 

 

And if that stuff is being fiddled with, can we make the TF settings award the badges they'd give in Ouroborus?  Right now I only set them to get a readout on the time and number of deaths when the TF is over. 

[Rathulfr]

Why not just choose to build alts without Incarnate powers, or simply disable XP at level 49 (or at exactly 50, which might stop progression into Incarnate Alpha, maybe -- I don't know if that works, having never tried it)?

[Uun]

6 hours ago, Andreah said:

I would take issue with this statement.

 

On Everlasting, we have several trials being run every day, with a very active set of regular trial organizers/leaders, and several others who do extra casual and badge-specific runs. 

Lots of trials on Excelsior as well.

[Andreah]

9 minutes ago, Uun said:

Lots of trials on Excelsior as well.

You can have the best of both worlds -- Server transfers are free and easy. Transfer to a busy server, do some trials and stuff, transfer back.  (be careful to keep your names though)

[Outrider_01]

Quote

Why not just choose to build alts without Incarnate powers, or simply disable XP at level 49 (or at exactly 50, which might stop progression into Incarnate Alpha, maybe -- I don't know if that works, having never tried it)?

 

This.  Make friends, join a SG.  Gentleman's agreement, "Guys, no Incarnate please.  Its just so boring!"  Only problem I see, is that you want to force as an option that it can't be used.  Problem is, most people like it....so your going to be spending way to long looking for like minded individuals; I see the occasional "No inspiration/outside buffs" TF but its rare maybe once every other week.  Make friends, run it everyday!

[Alchemystic]

10 hours ago, Sasquatch said:

Suggesting that I am welcome to play without using incarnates myself isn't a solution to anything though, and just amounts to obvious internet contrarianism. The rest of the team will still all be acting like that one scrapper on the team in the old days, who had something to prove and ran off soloing.

 

Which is why I suggested playing content at level 44, as it also prevents your team from using incarnate powers.

[MTeague]

I hear you. Frankly, I find the 1-44 game vastly more fun than the 45-50 game.

 

There *are* times.... infrequently.... where I do enjoy an incarnate romp. 

Where I want my main character to go Full Gandalf revealing the hidden power within

 

But most of the time?  No.

I would enjoy an OPTIONAL difficulty setting for "Disable Incarnate Powers", similar to the Ouro challenges for "No Inspirations", "Enemies Buffed", "No Travel Powers", etc. 

I have very limited hope of that ever happening. 

 

For the time being, @Outrider_01's solution of a Gentleman's Agreement, among a group of like minded people who choose to simply unslot all Incarnate powers when forming up the team, is really the ONLY option for this.  Yes, that's a lot more work. No, it's completely not pug friendly.  But, well, that's life. Your average pick-up-group player probably doesn't WANT to not have access to their incarnate powers. Even if an optional setting were created, you'd have to advertise it up front and it would probably take you a lot of time in LFG chat recruiting to get a reliable squad.

 

The good news is there is an Awful Lot of 1-44 content. 

In particular, I think you'd really enjoy First Ward and Night Ward. The story arcs there really kick it up a notch and make you bring your A game. 

[BrandX]

You don't even need a toggle for the incarnate system.  Just remove the powers from their slots and you can run anything without incarnate abilities.

[Doomguide2005]

54 minutes ago, BrandX said:

You don't even need a toggle for the incarnate system.  Just remove the powers from their slots and you can run anything without incarnate abilities.

^ This

     Though I've been unable to play (only internet this phone) for long enough that with nobody mentioning it I was starting to wonder if I was misremembering.  And for what it's worth I believe @Rathulfris correct.   Turn off xp right after you hit 50 and you won't have any Incarnate abilities (maybe a tiny bit of Incarnate xp going towards the Alpha slot).  I believe it might even be possible to not level up/turn off xp an alt build and be able to have both worlds, a fully t4 Incarnate build and a level locked 50 pre Incarnate build for those like @MTeague

    I also would not discount the potential to find like minded players with minimal extra effort.  See thread about issue 0 characters and teaming as one example.  I see plenty of responses by folks who stop playing in the 30's in similar threads to this.

Edited May 2, 2021 by Doomguide2005
Grammar

[golstat2003]

15 hours ago, Sasquatch said:

 

 

I suppose that unless a new, higher difficulty setting is made available to alpha unlocked players and above, it seems the old TFs, which I always considered the most fun content in the game, are limited to leveling characters only. 

 

I'm the complete opposite. I find the old tfs grating and annoying. Especially having seen what Paragon was able to do in later tfs. The older tfs IMO need a complete revamp. Same as older low level content.

[BrandX]

4 hours ago, Doomguide2005 said:

^ This

     Though I've been unable to play (only internet this phone) for long enough that with nobody mentioning it I was starting to wonder if I was misremembering.  And for what it's worth I believe @Rathulfris correct.   Turn off xp right after you hit 50 and you won't have any Incarnate abilities (maybe a tiny bit of Incarnate xp going towards the Alpha slot).  I believe it might even be possible to not level up/turn off xp an alt build and be able to have both worlds, a fully t4 Incarnate build and a level locked 50 pre Incarnate build for those like @MTeague

    I also would not discount the potential to find like minded players with minimal extra effort.  See thread about issue 0 characters and teaming as one example.  I see plenty of responses by folks who stop playing in the 30's in similar threads to this.

 

Hit 50, just turn off XP.  You only start getting Alpha XP after you actually hit the trainer.  So, you can avoid any and all Incarnate XP if you really want to.

 

And you are correct.  Could just put over chat, "Looking for team to run such and such TF WITHOUT Incarnate powers."

 

Which on the plus side, if the TF starts to fail, people could just switch them on later. 🙂

Edited May 2, 2021 by BrandX

[MTeague]

I would not turn off XP at 50. 

Even If I didn't want to be incarnate on that character.

 

Worst case, okay, all the slots get unlocked. S'ok, I don't ever have to craft a single power to fill them with.  But if I later decide to roll with, i *could*.

And in the meantime, I can always spend Incarnate Threads to buy Super Inspirations from Luna.

[Rathulfr]

19 hours ago, BrandX said:

You don't even need a toggle for the incarnate system.  Just remove the powers from their slots and you can run anything without incarnate abilities.

 

D'oh!  I completely forgot that you can simply unslot them.  In fact, that was one of the main selling points of Incarnate powers: you can completely change them to do different things by swapping out slots.  Thanks for the reminder, @Brandx.

 

(edit) I just tested swapping builds to see what happens to Incarnates.  The Incarnates stay slotted (or unslotted) when you switch builds.  In fact, if you switch builds, you reset their cooldown timers so you have to wait to un-/re-slot them after the switch, which is a bit irritating, as some of them have long cooldowns.

 

So having an option to switch builds without Incarnates or a power to turn off Incarnates isn't a bad idea, depending on how it's implemented.  Manual un-slotting is just as effective, if a bit cumbersome.

 

 

Edited May 2, 2021 by Rathulfr

[Clave Dark 5]

I haven't been on many runs of that one, I think only twice?  One we whiffed it big time.  So the game is not all 100% "way OP" or anything, goign by my anecdotal evidence.  TYou can always recruit people telling them to not use their Incarnate powers if they have them.  Play the way you want!  Just don't ask that everyone else be forced into playing that way too.  (I do agree that I fond everything below 50 much more fun)

[Mortm]

I think the original poster's point is that the challenge of the game has been lost.  It is very easy to obtain the incarnate powers and the changes that are being made only eliminate more of the game's challenges.  In previous issues more thought was put into balance, there were pros and cons to the choices you made when you were building your character.  The biggest challenge people deal with now is tedium, which is why you see people who do speed runs and grind thru the content. The current devs are are making changes that are destroying the game's concept of having the player make choices affect the way the game is played for that character.  For example, "Invisibility" has become a power that you use to stealth missions and you can get it without the requirement of obtaining any other power; It looks like someone wanted to stealth missions without having to make a trade off for it.  The game has gone from "which powers will I choose" to "a list of powers you eventually unlock".  Most of the changes they are doing are removing the cons that were put there to make it more challenging.  An example of this is removing the end drain from from "nuking".  And that is just one example of a change made not because something was broke, but because they didn't like the inconvenience.  Fanboys took the reins and now the game is circling the drain.

[Clave Dark 5]

I am familiar with the loud cry of "the challenge has been lost!" here and elsewhere.  Maybe so?  I feel that's a subjective call.  And if anyone's feeling tedium with the game, that's really more about them than the game; maybe they've played it too much (I know I have and the second I feel that tedium I log off).

 

I could be wrong, but I think the original devs took out some of the End-drain nuke effects, and people do very much so still carefully consider the builds, at least as much if not morseso than they once did (I'm guessing we're a concentrated group of hardcore players more likely to do so).  I mean, why do speed runs if you're not looking to grab the merits faster to trying to buy extra-big things for your build?  I don't think speed runs aret a sign of tedium, just over exposure (and new content is never going to come out fast enough to suit everyone).

 

Ultimately it still comes down to if you're bored or don't like HC's changes, you don't have to play here; I know that's not a great option, since people obviously do want to play here, but sometimes things just go that way, it's like thinking "I wanted to like the last movie I saw but..."

 

 

[Apparition]

3 hours ago, Mortm said:

I think the original poster's point is that the challenge of the game has been lost.  It is very easy to obtain the incarnate powers and the changes that are being made only eliminate more of the game's challenges.  In previous issues more thought was put into balance, there were pros and cons to the choices you made when you were building your character.  The biggest challenge people deal with now is tedium, which is why you see people who do speed runs and grind thru the content. The current devs are are making changes that are destroying the game's concept of having the player make choices affect the way the game is played for that character.  For example, "Invisibility" has become a power that you use to stealth missions and you can get it without the requirement of obtaining any other power; It looks like someone wanted to stealth missions without having to make a trade off for it.  The game has gone from "which powers will I choose" to "a list of powers you eventually unlock".  Most of the changes they are doing are removing the cons that were put there to make it more challenging.  An example of this is removing the end drain from from "nuking".  And that is just one example of a change made not because something was broke, but because they didn't like the inconvenience.  Fanboys took the reins and now the game is circling the drain.

 

 

Speed runs were done well, well, well before Homecoming, and well before Incarnates.  My friends and I did mainly speed runs from Issue 12 onwards.  Also, you could get Super Speed and one +stealth IO enhancement and have full stealth since... Issue 9?  Somewhere around there.  That's going back to 2007.  Also, Paragon Studios removed the endurance crash from nukes in the Issue 24 beta, not Homecoming nor SCoRE.

[ZacKing]

On 5/1/2021 at 7:12 AM, Sasquatch said:

Suggesting that I am welcome to play without using incarnates myself isn't a solution to anything though, and just amounts to obvious internet contrarianism. The rest of the team will still all be acting like that one scrapper on the team in the old days, who had something to prove and ran off soloing.

 

Just advertise for a no-incarnate powers run and you'll find others to join your team.  Adding a no-incarnate option to the TF screen is a better way to go than rolling back servers.  

[TheZag]

On 5/1/2021 at 6:12 AM, Sasquatch said:

The rest of the team will still all be acting like that one scrapper on the team in the old days, who had something to prove and ran off soloing.

 

My bad,  i was alot younger then and i honestly thought i was helping.  I never did it again after that.

 

I would like to see increased rewards when using the challenge settings if only to encourage players to use them more.  There is some interest but not many players jump at the chance of a taskforce taking twice as long on hard mode for the same reward.