Talking crap about Elec...

[FUBARczar]

On 5/8/2021 at 11:54 PM, underfyre said:

So unfortunately a little more goes into damage output than an abilities sheer DPA. Feel free to tell me how I didn't slot correctly, or how my bullshit spreadsheet isn't an accurate representation. 

This spreadsheet is sandbagging

 

1 - Taser is from Devices and boosting the perceived dmg from Elec

2 - I don't need/use Flares in any of my Fire Blast builds for an attack chain, so you are needlessly lowering the Damage of Fire

 

It is obvious to anyone looking at Elec Blast, the dmg is inferior to most blast sets, especially to Fire.  The only good powers in the set are BoL, Zapp and Thunderous Blast (And Short Circuit IF you want a sapper).

[Snarky]

54 minutes ago, FUBARczar said:

This spreadsheet is sandbagging

 

1 - Taser is from Devices and boosting the perceived dmg from Elec

2 - I don't need/use Flares in any of my Fire Blast builds for an attack chain, so you are needlessly lowering the Damage of Fire

 

It is obvious to anyone looking at Elec Blast, the dmg is inferior to most blast sets, especially to Fire.  The only good powers in the set are BoL, Zapp and Thunderous Blast (And Short Circuit IF you want a sapper).

Yet it is still the easiet choice for support on a Farm map.  Step 1) Find Farmer Step 2) explain you need a "real" outdoor map.  Places like the asteroid do NOT count Step 3) rain down T9s AoE and Ranged snipes from extreme range and help farm.

[Underfyre]

1 hour ago, FUBARczar said:

This spreadsheet is sandbagging

 

1 - Taser is from Devices and boosting the perceived dmg from Elec

2 - I don't need/use Flares in any of my Fire Blast builds for an attack chain, so you are needlessly lowering the Damage of Fire

 

It is obvious to anyone looking at Elec Blast, the dmg is inferior to most blast sets, especially to Fire.  The only good powers in the set are BoL, Zapp and Thunderous Blast (And Short Circuit IF you want a sapper).

 

An AT is the sum of its parts, not just what the primary alone is capable of. But yes, the set is wanting in ST damage.

[FUBARczar]

2 hours ago, Snarky said:

Yet it is still the easiet choice for support on a Farm map.  Step 1) Find Farmer Step 2) explain you need a "real" outdoor map.  Places like the asteroid do NOT count Step 3) rain down T9s AoE and Ranged snipes from extreme range and help farm.

I am positive that my Fire/Mental/Fire farmer is a better farmer than any Electric Blast Farmer, and he can solo the cave Map no problem (just not AFK)

 

Or Dual Pistols or Archery, or Water, or, or, or...

 

With the longest recharge for any nuke (tied with Ice), Elec is lagging behind once again...

[FUBARczar]

2 hours ago, underfyre said:

 

An AT is the sum of its parts, not just what the primary alone is capable of. But yes, the set is wanting in ST damage.

yes but if you are comparing primaries then compare like to like and stick to the powers of the primary sets.  Why not do that same comparison but take out Flares and add Taser?  

 

Also (not just to undefyre, but the OP and others as well) just because people speak poorly of Elec Blast doesn't mean that they don't like Elec blast per se.  Perhaps, like me, they wish it was better so it would be an actual option w/o me knowing/feeling that I am playing a poorer performer.  For instance I use Elec Blast on one of my two main Sentinel (E3) and the set was improved for Sentinels and was made a fair choice amongst the other blast sets (side note: my personal favorite Sentinel of mine is Sonic/Bio/Psi and Sonic was another set that was buffed to make it an actual choice IMO)

 

Elec is only a competitive set if one is blapping, that way one only needs to take Aim, Ball of Lightning, Zapp, and Thunderous Blast (and possibly the proc'd Tesla Cage).  So it's not a problem for me because IMO it's the way a blaster should be played because who would ignore so many great melee and PBAoE powers in the secondary power sets?  Unless you are playing /Tactical Arrow.

 

So perhaps Elec Blast is not as bad as people perceive, but that is entirely due to the advent of quick snipe and the ability to proc Tesla Cage IMO.  I think most of the negativity may be its past haunting the set, and the set missing a top tier non-snipe blast power like Blaze, Bitter Ice Blast, Blazing Arrow, Water Jet, TK Blast, etc.

[KelvinKole]

4 hours ago, FUBARczar said:

This spreadsheet is sandbagging

 

1 - Taser is from Devices and boosting the perceived dmg from Elec

2 - I don't need/use Flares in any of my Fire Blast builds for an attack chain, so you are needlessly lowering the Damage of Fire

 

It is obvious to anyone looking at Elec Blast, the dmg is inferior to most blast sets, especially to Fire.  The only good powers in the set are BoL, Zapp and Thunderous Blast (And Short Circuit IF you want a sapper).

Flares is the better DPA attack, over fire blast.  Since you probably can’t rotate only blaze, blazing bolt, and fireball…flares is needed and is the next best attack to use. 
 

Everyone can agree that, in a vacuum where you are only standing at 80ft and only using attacks from your primary, fire has the better (best) ST dps. There’s a legitimate point to be made about access to secondary powers though, and whether you’ll actually play the game in that aforementioned vacuum. If someone wants to play a blapper, elec is a fine choice and that character can put out similar dps to the fire blaster standing 80ft away. 

[DarknessEternal]

1 hour ago, KelvinKole said:

Flares is the better DPA attack, over fire blast.  Since you probably can’t rotate only blaze, blazing bolt, and fireball…flares is needed and is the next best attack to use.

But Future Pain is better than everything except Blaze, so why would I want to use Flares at all to make up that space?

 

The thing about Fire Blast is that it also gets to use the high powered secondary attacks and benefits from those just as much.  So yeah, you can ignore secondaries when comparing primaries, they do cancel out and Fire still wants to use the secondary.

Edited June 4, 2021 by DarknessEternal

[KelvinKole]

28 minutes ago, DarknessEternal said:

But Future Pain is better than everything except Blaze, so why would I want to use Flares at all to make up that space?

 

I agree, but people seem to want to look only at the primaries here and in that kind of analysis you’re going to use flares. 

[FUBARczar]

1 hour ago, KelvinKole said:

I agree, but people seem to want to look only at the primaries here and in that kind of analysis you’re going to use flares. 

yes but some were comparing Elec blaster with Taser to only Fire Blast, that's how this came up

[ScarySai]

Why would you revive this thread?

[FUBARczar]

1 hour ago, ScarySai said:

Why would you revive this thread?

lol, I didn't look at dates, it was on the front page of the blaster forums, sooooo I figure that it is relatively fresh 

[macskull]

10 hours ago, KelvinKole said:

If someone wants to play a blapper, elec is a fine choice and that character can put out similar dps to the fire blaster standing 80ft away. 

...but will still fall behind a blapper with fire as its primary.

[Zalari]

On 5/8/2021 at 7:10 PM, underfyre said:

Well some good has come of this. While I was searching for a secondary that could possibly add to Fire's primary damage output, I found out that Shinobi applies a "crit" chance that is just a damage proc. So now I need to code that in to the sheet.

I have a Fire/Nin Blaster and he is an absolute monster! Have all Fire attacks besides Flares and Fire Breath, and the only attack from Nin is Golden Dragonfly. Very lenient set and supports Fire incredibly well. The Crits aren't anywhere near as glamorous as a Scrapper or Stalker's, but the added damage is definitely noticeable.

[Seed22]

On 5/8/2021 at 3:54 PM, underfyre said:

 

I guess it's fun to see how many times someone an be wrong in a single paragraph.

 

The single target chain of 1-2-6-whatever secondary ranged you have is plenty sufficient as a chain to nearly keep up with Fire. We're talking a 3% difference. 10% if you go for Nerve over Musculature to shore up those sad defense numbers.

Adding in the Voltaic Sentinel sees the set surging up 20% over Fire.

 

Long story short, Fire's "more damage" mechanic doesn't add as much damage as everyone wants to believe.

It is fun to watch someone be wrongin a paragraph. Hell you just did it. And maybe if you dont know how to build a fire blaster it doesnt, but  seriously? Elec EVER doing more damage than fire? This is why I hate non min/maxing advice cause it leads to this BS.

 

let me be clear. You will NEVER. EVER. Do more damage than fire on anything short of water or procced Ice. Thats it. Anyone reading otherwise? That person is lying. Flat out.

Edited June 10, 2021 by Seed22

[Seed22]

On 5/8/2021 at 4:34 PM, ScarySai said:

Here's the thing with CoH.

 

If you IO out anything and at least attempt to competently make a build, you should be fine for 95% of the content in the game. You won't be a living god like some other characters can be, but an elec blast character can prosper.

 

But despite that, it's worth noting that elec blast has to be one of, if not the worst primary damage set in the game. I think Battle Axe does more, but I'll have to check the numbers again. It's in desperate need of a balance pass.

AR isn’t worse than elec? Daaaamn thats bad. Like REALLY bad

[Seed22]

On 5/11/2021 at 2:19 PM, underfyre said:

While true, the primaries will have varying responses to how they react to the added secondary. For instance, If I used Atomic as the secondary on Electric it yielded a higher DPS increase than I got when I used the same things with Fire. As has been pointed out, Fire basically has a coherent attack chain with just its primary, while Electric clearly needs a boost from the secondary. BUT, adding the secondary into the mix with the Fire also showed that Fire's damage went even higher when combined with a secondary. Adding a third or fourth attack from the secondary patches up the fact that Electric doesn't really have a lot going for it in the single target department. Adding those same attacks to Fire will simply replace one of the weaker attacks from the primary. Overall both sets will end up doing similar damage.

 

So over all is Fire more capable as a primary and only a primary? Yes. Is it better off with a secondary? Also yes. Dos this make Fire better than everyone else? Hardly.

I uh...have a Fire/atomic. I teamed with an elec/atomic and didnt feel like I was doing less damage. In fact I was doing much more than them. Killing two mobs and severly wounding bosses while they cleaned up with the rest of the team. Kinda feels better than everyone else to me

[Underfyre]

6 hours ago, Seed22 said:

I uh...have a Fire/atomic. I teamed with an elec/atomic and didnt feel like I was doing less damage. In fact I was doing much more than them. Killing two mobs and severly wounding bosses while they cleaned up with the rest of the team. Kinda feels better than everyone else to me

 

Good for you. Did you consult them on their build? What does your build look like compared to theirs? Did you do any leg work to compare the builds yourself on the same map? Or did it just feel like you did more damage because you rushed ahead of the group and left everyone else to clean up your mess?

 

6 hours ago, Seed22 said:

 

let me be clear. You will NEVER. EVER. Do more damage than fire on anything short of water or procced Ice. Thats it. Anyone reading otherwise? That person is lying. Flat out.

 

A bold claim like this needs qualification. Are we talking single target or multi target? If you're talking single target I'm pretty sure I can make you wrong.

[DarknessEternal]

4 hours ago, underfyre said:

A bold claim like this needs qualification. Are we talking single target or multi target? If you're talking single target I'm pretty sure I can make you wrong.

Your very spreadsheet says nothing beats Fire.

[Underfyre]

4 minutes ago, DarknessEternal said:

Your very spreadsheet says nothing beats Fire.

 

My spreadsheet says Dark beats Fire. In single target specifically. Not sure about multi target.

[DarknessEternal]

@underfyre

I've got Dark 100 dps behind fire.

 

I can't figure out how to put URL links in here to my 2 sheets, or make my docs readable by others.  If you can teach me that, we can sort this discrepancy out.

 

Also, couple bugs found, I've put them in the sheet thread.

Edited June 11, 2021 by DarknessEternal

[Underfyre]

9 hours ago, DarknessEternal said:

@underfyre

I can't figure out how to put URL links in here to my 2 sheets, or make my docs readable by others.  If you can teach me that, we can sort this discrepancy out.

 

Click  in the top right corner.

 

Change to this 

 

Then copy the link and paste it.

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1hrHA6Jl8C0coFpT3VvdmPY-ws0EQAl8PA0IcKPspo2A/edit?usp=sharing

 

I have Dark/Nrg/Mace at 358.63 on a Pylon with this build that looks like it'll probably have endurance problems even after Energize: 

Edit: removed Assault Hybrid's bonus and just left the 10% damage boost. Time on a single Pylon run was 185 seconds, 335 DPS. Expected with Hybrid removed was 330.83.

 

Spoiler

| Copy & Paste this data into Mids Reborn : Hero Designer to view the build |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------|
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|78DA6593594F135114C7EFB433422965DFCA22B6655F46EA931A0D89B204A10991C|
|4374346989491321DDB92C8A3DF405163A2A8AFE2F6ECD73131111716F5D1987A3A|
|FF7FB191493BBF73CFB967BD775277A76ADFCFDE9B545AE46AC6CAE797AFC8BB60E|
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|0CD237781F196A1F90DB60DD43B0E111F9185C97BC067C356314719B76033E3362A|
|B62DCAAB1922EA412E3609F494E9049F80CB0E6AC7885D0A11662DC24E909C28C1B|
|7E8A1E9A9E812D3BE473B0ED05F9128CCB8588B0DE881F2FA4EAC83B827AC6ADDF0|
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|7EEECE39F4D8C91EBB7764FBA0AE42525333F2EACDADD83B3E83B867E7C86BE43CF|
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|F70FC27F90B6C947C266B31992FD9A0F9B666B14DC0A62662B857DDFAFF5F6B4C3F|
|FEF68B0B27AC8B3A8DA2D17CCD7ECDF1D74DCD61A5E6066A3838B1EBE89F46D3B63|
|1EDE413707E442A4596E2A2EC4BB21EAB42BE5921DFAA90FF02E45AE101|
|-------------------------------------------------------------------|

 

Edited June 11, 2021 by underfyre

[Bopper]

3 hours ago, underfyre said:

Then copy the link and paste it.

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1hrHA6Jl8C0coFpT3VvdmPY-ws0EQAl8PA0IcKPspo2A/edit?usp=sharing

 

I have Dark/Nrg/Mace at 358.63 on a Pylon with this build that looks like it'll probably have endurance problems even after Energize: 

 

Double check your sheet on how you're calculating proc probabilities in AoEs. I think you have a big boo-boo. 

 

 

I don't know why you're doing 0.75 x (60 + ...). It should be:

 

[DarknessEternal]

This is my actual fire/time blaster:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1EVjjXcOKCQ8ETsckuGXRYawirgw71VChu9hihFc9pCM/edit?usp=sharing

 

Only 70 dps ahead of your dark/energy.  However, you used some tricks I didn't when theoretically crafting dark blast I wasn't aware of.  Also, I have different priorities on slotting.  So here is dark/energy I would have built including your insights on some powers:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1kreaynUFmE0fGXBvkFzQjGonO2YIkeupy-69VgBFFuk/edit?usp=sharing

 

That'd only be 14 dps ahead of dark now.  Pretty close actually. 

 

So, it actually turns out the problem with Electric blast might be it doesn't have any damage procs.

 

I'll have to build a fire/energy later to see how much more that is.

Edited June 11, 2021 by DarknessEternal

[Arbegla]

I really don't understand why a ANY blaster would skip their t1 and t2 blasts. Like at all. This argument of 'But flares is gross!' doesn't make much sense when you can use it while held....

 

Unless I'm just really missing something about blasters that I haven't noticed before.

[DarknessEternal]

You're never going to be held.