Rebuilding rage.

[Haijinx]

SS flame threads seem to me to be these amazing contests of filtered arguments.

 

Like a critical mass of (hopefully unintentional) disingenuouity.

 

You have the people who cant seem to see past the crash.  The crash that is all that matters.  They can't seem to see past the crash.  They don't care that removing the crash would make give SS the highest sustained, stackable build up effect in the game with no downside. 

 

You have the people who say that Getting Mad, then getting tired ruins their Kryptonian or whatever inspired concept.  Like somehow this is the only power in the game that doesn't follow their pet comic book lore exactly.   Its a game.  They had to call it something.  They wanted SS to have a long duration build up instead of a bursty one.  This is what they came up with.  They were not trying to come up with a power or even Powerset to describe all Super Strong characters in Comic Books. 

 

You have the people who say that SS needs Rage "just to be as good as" other sets, when this is only true for HALF the set.   Their argument is fine if you are looking at the pathetic Jab, Punch, and Haymaker.  Maybe include the ridiculous throwing power whatever.  But they conveniently ignore a very effective Knockout Blow and the stellar Foot Stomp, neither of which seem to be "balanced around" rage at all.  With the Irony being that those are the powers you get closer to actually having Rage. 

 

Then you have the die hard double ragers.  Who will eventually show up.  If they haven't already.  They tend to make 3 arguments.  That even with Double Rage SS is underpowered, That the crash kills all fun, BUT when faced with actually seeing something happen to Double Rage will sabotage any compromises on the power at all.  

 

Thus nothing will ever change.  How could it?  Many of the people most interested in the changes refuse to look at the Power with any sort of academic detachment. 

[Bill Z Bubba]

My only SS user. Honestly, the set is awful across the board. Poorly designed, poorly balanced.

 

[Marshal_General]

The reason people can't get past the rage crash is the feeling that the game is punishing you for using SS. It is also the reason sets that have a lot of powers that you can't use on your character are not as popular as other sets that allow you to use all of you powers when solo.

 

If you can reliably double stack Follow Up even though the bonuses are less than rage without being punished with a crash, the why would people use rage?

Edited June 19, 2021 by Marshal_General

[Vanden]

22 minutes ago, Marshal_General said:

If you can reliably double stack Follow Up even though the bonuses are less than rage without being punished with a crash, the why would people use rage?

One stack of Rage is still stronger than two stacks of Follow Up and can itself be double stacked, it isn't subject to the 95% hit cap or enemy defense buffs or tohit debuffs and so never fails, you don't need to spend as much time activating it, at high recharge amounts you actually spend more time activating Follow Up than you spend in the Rage crash, it costs less endurance (even with the endurance crash), it looks pretty

Edited June 19, 2021 by Vanden

[Haijinx]

2 minutes ago, Vanden said:

One stack of Rage is still stronger than two stacks of Follow Up and can itself be double stacked, it isn't subject to the 95% hit cap or enemy defense buffs or tohit debuffs and so never fails, you don't need to spend as much time activating it, at high recharge amounts you actually spend more time activating Follow Up than you spend in the Rage crash, it looks pretty.

 

Double rage for Tankers and Brutes would equal 5 stacks of Followup damage wise 

[Marshal_General]

I wonder how the damage would compare if you took the amount of time that you would have with SS for rage to crash twice and subtract that amount of time that you are practically doing no damage, figure the damage and compare it to claws with double stacked follow up during that same time period.

[Vanden]

11 minutes ago, Marshal_General said:

I wonder how the damage would compare if you took the amount of time that you would have with SS for rage to crash twice and subtract that amount of time that you are practically doing no damage, figure the damage and compare it to claws with double stacked follow up during that same time period.

 Not really a fair comparison, is it? For permanent double-stacked Rage you need 300% recharge, but for permanent double-stacked Follow Up you only need 100% recharge. With 300% recharge on Claws, using Follow Up every time it's charged means you're spending 1 second out of every 4 casting Follow Up, and I have to guess at that point your DPS has nose-dived.

Edited June 19, 2021 by Vanden

[Haijinx]

1 minute ago, Marshal_General said:

I wonder how the damage would compare if you took the amount of time that you would have with SS for rage to crash twice and subtract that amount of time that you are practically doing no damage, figure the damage and compare it to claws with double stacked follow up during that same time period.

 

Rage has crash downtime, some of which will occur between fights.  It does has very small activation time. 

 

Follow Up decays a lot faster.  You can only keep so many stacks going.  And the number will depend on what you are fighting.  I think 3 stacks can happen a lot during AV fights or Pylons, but usually it does not.   PLUS you need to build stacks.  You only get one stack per rotation after all.  

[Snarky]

1 hour ago, Haijinx said:

You have the people who cant seem to see past the crash.  The crash that is all that matters.  They can't seem to see past the crash.  They don't care that removing the crash would make give SS the highest sustained, stackable build up effect in the game with no downside. 

 

actually i have never advocating removing the crash without rebalancing the power set.  but thank you for simplifying things.  also you conveniently ignore the boost is that powerful due to the sub par smashing damage of the set.  but hey, being obtuse isn't just for crazy people anymore.

Edited June 19, 2021 by Snarky

[Snarky]

13 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

 

Double rage for Tankers and Brutes would equal 5 stacks of Followup damage wise 

do not allow double rage.  the rage buff is powerful because the damage is trash without it.  the set is balanced around that boost.  so comparing apples to buicks is fun, but not as helpful as you might think.

[Haijinx]

1 minute ago, Snarky said:

 the rage buff is powerful because the damage is trash without it.  the set is balanced around that boost.  so comparing apples to buicks is fun, but not as helpful as you might think.

 

Sort of.  Foot Stomp is more powerful than other PBOEs, even without rage.  KOB is pretty strong as well.  Rage also effects epic attacks.  

 

As to the Buicks bit, I was responding to Marshal who specifically mentioned Follow-up.  

[Bill Z Bubba]

15 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Rage has crash downtime, some of which will occur between fights.  It does has very small activation time. 

 

Follow Up decays a lot faster.  You can only keep so many stacks going.  And the number will depend on what you are fighting.  I think 3 stacks can happen a lot during AV fights or Pylons, but usually it does not.   PLUS you need to build stacks.  You only get one stack per rotation after all.  

 

Mostly sure that triple stacked followup only buffs Focus when chaining fu->focus->slash. And, yes, against hard targets, unless there's an FU miss, that stays the case. Dropping that triple on focus to add something else (strike(ugly) or shockwave(too much end) or moonbeam/gloom(maybe, I guess, ain't pretty, or crosspunch (have to take boxing and kick to buff it properly)) may very well increase one's overall chain DPS. But style has to fit in the balance equation somewhere, dangit and followup itself does damage. Going for the doublestack, instead, will allow you to chase less recharge and even proc followup to increase its damage while still maintaining the buff.

 

Edit: moot point for me. I stick with body/nrg mastery on my claws/sr so that I can do barrier/rebirth instead of ageless.

Edited June 19, 2021 by Bill Z Bubba

[Snarky]

i both love and hate the nerf to afterburner.  i love afterburner but can rarely squeeze it on my builds.  so i get a ghetto version for free that is just enough to get between missions on non shadow shard tfs.  

 

 

i am out of the Rage convo for a while.  10 sec crash.  

[Heraclea]

Ten seconds of enforced inactivity may as well be forever in this game. 

 

SS is gone. Roll Street Justice and pretend.   

[Naraka]

12 hours ago, saltyorange said:

I like this the most but I think at end of the day it isn't going to make sense it was just more important to have a fire armor set for game play diversity. I guess me using that it doesn't thematically make sense for it to buff your tohit isn't really a valid reason because you can make most things make sense if you try hard enough and it doesn't matter if they don't fully anyways like with fire armor.

 

I still think the core design with rage is broken. It's not like with other sets you can try to build around their weakness you just take a set about slam then ask people not to slam for 10 seconds. I know people say they use judgement or whatever but is that really when you should be using it? or are you just further crippling yourself by using it at a poor time to feel like you are not just sitting there for 10 seconds?

I think that's the beauty of the game: you can technically rationalize almost everything into your character's concept and if you choose not to, like the case of Rage, you're probably taking for granted the boon the power does afford you. Because I believe rage is one of the best pound for pound offensive buffs a melee can get. Wanting to get rid of the downside would warrant a weakening of that power.

 

Further still, this "Perma" push has been a thorn as well. Having the biggest buff all the time with no drawbacks is human nature but knowing that should be the rationale for the game to oppose that path to enforce a human to adapt (i.e. play the game).

[Lazarillo]

27 minutes ago, Naraka said:

Further still, this "Perma" push has been a thorn as well. Having the biggest buff all the time with no drawbacks is human nature but knowing that should be the rationale for the game to oppose that path to enforce a human to adapt (i.e. play the game).

The whole "perma" thing for me comes from a different direction.  Having a non-perma buff means, effectively, that I don't need the buff.  A power that won't be on all the time is one that I might as well not take, because I'll have to be able to approach any content in the game without it anyway.

[DrInfernus]

1 hour ago, Lazarillo said:

The whole "perma" thing for me comes from a different direction.  Having a non-perma buff means, effectively, that I don't need the buff.  A power that won't be on all the time is one that I might as well not take, because I'll have to be able to approach any content in the game without it anyway.

Indeed. If Rage isn’t perma then you don’t have a super strength character. It’s literally set-defining. 
 

I mean, if we are honest it’s not a great set anyway. Knockout blow and footstomp are good, but the rest are very meh. Rage is the reason to play super strength, and then you’re punished for using it 🤷🏼‍♂️

[DrInfernus]

4 hours ago, Haijinx said:

SS flame threads seem to me to be these amazing contests of filtered arguments.

 

Like a critical mass of (hopefully unintentional) disingenuouity.

 

You have the people who cant seem to see past the crash.  The crash that is all that matters.  They can't seem to see past the crash.  They don't care that removing the crash would make give SS the highest sustained, stackable build up effect in the game with no downside. 

 

You have the people who say that Getting Mad, then getting tired ruins their Kryptonian or whatever inspired concept.  Like somehow this is the only power in the game that doesn't follow their pet comic book lore exactly.   Its a game.  They had to call it something.  They wanted SS to have a long duration build up instead of a bursty one.  This is what they came up with.  They were not trying to come up with a power or even Powerset to describe all Super Strong characters in Comic Books. 

 

You have the people who say that SS needs Rage "just to be as good as" other sets, when this is only true for HALF the set.   Their argument is fine if you are looking at the pathetic Jab, Punch, and Haymaker.  Maybe include the ridiculous throwing power whatever.  But they conveniently ignore a very effective Knockout Blow and the stellar Foot Stomp, neither of which seem to be "balanced around" rage at all.  With the Irony being that those are the powers you get closer to actually having Rage. 

 

Then you have the die hard double ragers.  Who will eventually show up.  If they haven't already.  They tend to make 3 arguments.  That even with Double Rage SS is underpowered, That the crash kills all fun, BUT when faced with actually seeing something happen to Double Rage will sabotage any compromises on the power at all.  

 

Thus nothing will ever change.  How could it?  Many of the people most interested in the changes refuse to look at the Power with any sort of academic detachment. 

What about those of us saying:

 

We are happy for there to BE a cost for Rage. You could even argue that ‘the pathetic jab, punch, and haymaker’ are already part of that cost. But the HUGE -damage cost is too high. 
 

Where do we fall on the “filtered disingenuouity” scale? 
 

Like I’ve said before, there are no solutions on Rage, just surrenders. Apparently, we’ve surrendered to the people demanding it stays the same. That’s fine. It’s not my decision. Doesn’t make it a solution though, and neither is just hoping people stop moaning about it. 

Edited June 19, 2021 by DrInfernus

[Naraka]

12 hours ago, Snarky said:

I NEVER double stack Rage.   I still hate the entire mechanic.  Why would i want two crashes?   I absolutely despise one.  The amount of power is not the issue.  It is the concept crushing crashes.  Do you see Luke Cage falling over every two minutes in combat grasping for breath?  The Thing? Colossus? The Hulk? Superman?  The Tick?  Mr Incredible, old and fat, never stopped to pant.  Name one Super Strength character that has to pause every couple minutes to swoon like a victorian era lady with her corset too tight

 

Rage crash has a "gasping for breath" animation? Or do you RP it as gasping for breath?

 

So you have the creativity to play a "gasp for breath" emote when it crashes but not the creativity to form a personalized reason to not attack for a handful of seconds after you just went on an onslaught?

 

11 hours ago, Lazarillo said:

This gets things into a bit of tangent, but this sort of thing hits me hard.  Like, for example, I have a hard time playing Street Justice because I hate the animation for Shin Breaker, and so I don't take it, but I still end up with this little voice in my head reminding me that I'd be "better" if I did and so I kinda beat myself up over it any time I don't do quite as well as I'd like, and conversely, Martial Arts, where I really like the animation for Thunder Kick, but it's "objectively" the worst attack in the set.

 

And actually that ends up applying to SS, too, because Jab, like Thunder Kick, is an attack where I really prefer the animation over Punch, especially, but I know I'm handicapping myself by using it, which just brings the set down even more on top of the Rage crash being so annoying.

 

Imagine min/maxing Hopscotch. I'm sure a rare few do but even they probably play hopscotch just for fun.

 

And imagine reforming the game for people that are fine with hopscotch just so you can min/max it to be better.

 

7 hours ago, DrInfernus said:

I think the theme one is definitely quite subjective, although I’d argue that the Hulk style theme has been completely catered for by the Brute AT and the fury. That’s literally a case of the madder you get, the harder you hit, and once you calm down you return to normal. So that theme is definitely catered for. 
 

But then there’s the Superman style theme, where they just have super strength. And yet, with Rage how it is now, you make a super strength character and you somehow end somehow end up with (as far as my memory serves) the only powerset in the whole game which leaves you unable to do any damage at all for a spell, i.e. no strength at all. 
 

Definitely think super strength should come with a cost. You shouldn’t get it for nothing. Just don’t think the damage crash is remotely reasonable. 

 

Game powers be like that. You're not always going to get a 1-to-1 of a narrative ability when transitioning it to games because no one wants their Brute to have a Bruce Banner mode or give their Supermen a kryptonite weakness. Those are better for stories and comics and it would be easier to conceptualize for players if that hurdle was accepted and understood.

 

4 hours ago, Snarky said:

to be clear, with great wherewithal, henceforth, and forevermor, in this year of our Lord Recluse I have stated these incontrovertible facts:

 

1) Super Strength is not the best damage dealing set for Tanks or Brutes.  It may be near the top.   But it is not standing over anyone.  

1b)  check powergamer builds.  SS is not the go to.

 

2) The crash is a Homey Clown "bonk on the Head" every 2 minutes just for playing the set. 

2b) NO OTHER SET IN THE GAME PUTS THE GAMER IN A TIME OUT EVERY TWO MINUTES JUST TO KEEP PLAYING

 

3) This whole "What do we do about it?" conversation is now in it's second decade.  

3b) If this was not such an iconic comic book power set I would have moved on years ago.  

3c)  How could you screw this up?  Seriously?  Then stand behind some cottage rule like the CEOs coked out son "This is how we do business here.  this is good. why do you have a problem with it?"

 

Guess what?  I would put real money that most of those people screaming how bad the changes were on the test server?  You give them an alternate power set where they have to level enhance accolade and incarnate the new SS toon?  95% will do all the work just to play the new SS and avoid the rage crash.  Even though they whined like an engine with no oil about how horrid it was.  Because everybody hates the crash.

 

1.) Near the top, with no context, *should* be good enough. Why does it have to be *AT* the top to counter your point?

1b) no one should care about them. They will pick whatever is at the top so they are a shifting variable at best.

 

2.) & 2b) there are other sets, you just skip the powers with drawbacks now.

 

3.),  3b) & 3c), most just emotional outbursts. Even if a new set with super strength animations and no need for rage came out but it was called Tai Chi, people would still grasp onto that same argument of changing SS/rage because of name alone and it's a faulty stance, imo. They do it with Regen all the time despite WP sitting right in front of them.

 

4 hours ago, DrInfernus said:

Don’t think that’s fair at all tbh. How can we give something up when many of us are saying SS is unusable to us in its current form? 
 

From my perspective, at the moment there is nothing about SS to give up because I’m not using it specifically because of Rage. So what position would you like me to take? 

 

If it's unusable now, is worry to see what merely "usable" would be to you guys. And just to be clear, I think introducing something on the mild side and then bumping it up a bit later if needed is a better approach since no one ever wants to consider bringing things down.

 

2 hours ago, Marshal_General said:

The reason people can't get past the rage crash is the feeling that the game is punishing you for using SS. It is also the reason sets that have a lot of powers that you can't use on your character are not as popular as other sets that allow you to use all of you powers when solo.

 

If you can reliably double stack Follow Up even though the bonuses are less than rage without being punished with a crash, the why would people use rage?

 

One Hallmark of a comic is tension and having powers with drawbacks. Of course, you could skip over those if you like but you miss out on the highs you gain that come along with those lows. You're addicted to highs to the point you just gotta use them all the time that the highs don't even register as highs anymore to you.

 

1 hour ago, Lazarillo said:

The whole "perma" thing for me comes from a different direction.  Having a non-perma buff means, effectively, that I don't need the buff.  A power that won't be on all the time is one that I might as well not take, because I'll have to be able to approach any content in the game without it anyway.

 

Yes, you've reduced the combat from being a game of tactics and resource conservation (the whole point of END as well as powers economy) to a simple button mash. A game that, at one point, could have been a set of intense chess matches are now just long and fast bouts of Uno. 

 

I'm not dogging on Uno, it's a hugely fun game, but it's a bit of a downgrade regardless. But the point is, now you're looking at everyone to be playing Uno. All MMOs do it, really. GW2 has gone through many patches decreasing and limiting boons because people push for Perma boons. I can understand the appeal and I can also understand how destructive a progression it makes.

 

As for not needing the buffs, I challenge you to turn off an essential power on a team. I bet you you will still come out on top because the game is dogshite easy.

[Haijinx]

2 minutes ago, DrInfernus said:

What about those of us saying:

 

We are happy for there to BE a cost for Rage. You could even argue that ‘the pathetic jab, punch, and haymaker’ are already part of that cost. But the HUGE -damage cost is too high. 
 

Where do we fall on the “filtered disingenuouity” scale? 
 

Like I’ve said before, there are no solutions on Rage, just surrenders. Apparently, we’ve surrendered to the people demanding it stays the same. That’s fine. It’s not my decision. Doesn’t make it a solution though. 

 

Keep in mind that Rage is UP ~92% of the time, so that is actually a HUGE -damage cost ~8% of the time.  This is what I meant about detachment.  You state the downside without also acknowledging the very high uptime. 

 

The Downsides are significant, yes.  There is also the Defense cost, that hurts defense sets, particularly on Brutes.  Potentially a survival issue on them.  But for a limited time.  There is an Endurance cost also.  But this is mitigated by the fact that you probably have enough recovery to handle this, especially since you have enforced rest breaks. 

 

You seem to be okay with a cost to Rage, but not okay with the current cost of Rage.  Where do you stand on Double Rage?  It seems like Capt PHs solution would have been good for you.   Its unfortunate that one got killed by the Double Ragers. 

 

Another point of Detachment is that I am not talking about you.  There have been Rage arguments in COH for YEARS going back to before I even owned a cell phone.  So I am sort of simplifying impressions I have gotten form dozens of flamefests.   Not this one, nor this set of posters per se. 

[DrInfernus]

44 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

 

Keep in mind that Rage is UP ~92% of the time, so that is actually a HUGE -damage cost ~8% of the time.  This is what I meant about detachment.  You state the downside without also acknowledging the very high uptime. 

 

The Downsides are significant, yes.  There is also the Defense cost, that hurts defense sets, particularly on Brutes.  Potentially a survival issue on them.  But for a limited time.  There is an Endurance cost also.  But this is mitigated by the fact that you probably have enough recovery to handle this, especially since you have enforced rest breaks. 

 

You seem to be okay with a cost to Rage, but not okay with the current cost of Rage.  Where do you stand on Double Rage?  It seems like Capt PHs solution would have been good for you.   Its unfortunate that one got killed by the Double Ragers. 

 

Another point of Detachment is that I am not talking about you.  There have been Rage arguments in COH for YEARS going back to before I even owned a cell phone.  So I am sort of simplifying impressions I have gotten form dozens of flamefests.   Not this one, nor this set of posters per se. 

I personally think double rage is a bit of an abuse of the IO system. We were never supposed to have double rage. 
 

My solution would be to make rage unstackable and remove the -damage from the crash. Think there probably should be some kind of crash. Or make it unstackable on Tanks without crash but leave it as it is on Brutes. That way there is a path for both sides of the debate. 
 

I get that rage is up 92% of the time, but excessive strength is the whole point of the set, so I don’t understand why we can’t expect it to be up 100% of the time. We don’t tell War Mace they can only use their mace 92% of the time, or fire blasters they can only use fire 92% of the time. 
 

So you’re right in that I don’t acknowledge the upside, but that’s because I don’t personally see Rage as having an upside for 92% of the time, I see it as doing what it should do for only 92% of the time, while other sets get 100% uptime. 
 

Either way, it’s nice to have a rational debate about it, and I thank you for that. 

Edited June 19, 2021 by DrInfernus

[saltyorange]

7 hours ago, Naraka said:

 Wanting to get rid of the downside would warrant a weakening of that power.

 

Further still, this "Perma" push has been a thorn as well. Having the biggest buff all the time with no drawbacks is human nature but knowing that should be the rationale for the game to oppose that path to enforce a human to adapt (i.e. play the game).

To be clear I don't want to get rid of the power having downsides. My issue is this downside specifically is like some nasty speed bump effect to the gameplay and makes the set feel terrible to play.

[skoryy]

7 hours ago, Lazarillo said:

Having a non-perma buff means, effectively, that I don't need the buff.

Combat Readiness -> Ground Zero -> Spinning Strike and Agent Trinity clears half the room in the first three seconds.

 

Extra damage is extra damage.  If you're not using your Build Ups, you're not getting the full use out of your attack set.

[siolfir]

5 hours ago, DrInfernus said:

I personally think double rage is a bit of an abuse of the IO system. We were never supposed to have double rage.

You've said this a couple of times, but history doesn't back you up on it. You can stack Rage with SOs and Hasten and prior to ED - before I started, but when the powerset was designed - could 6-slot recharge and have it up permanently then. If they really wanted it to not stack, they could have set it to not do so as they did with many other powers. So as much as you want to blame IOs (and as many things as you can blame them for) you're totally off base here.

 

 

11 hours ago, Haijinx said:

You have the people who say that SS needs Rage "just to be as good as" other sets, when this is only true for HALF the set.   Their argument is fine if you are looking at the pathetic Jab, Punch, and Haymaker.  Maybe include the ridiculous throwing power whatever.  But they conveniently ignore a very effective Knockout Blow and the stellar Foot Stomp, neither of which seem to be "balanced around" rage at all.  With the Irony being that those are the powers you get closer to actually having Rage. 

I'll give you Foot Stomp - it should have a 10' radius for its damage and recharge - but Knockout Blow is an underperforming power based on their own design formulas and using it as an example of why SS isn't nerfed because of Rage is disingenuous at best. It has the damage and endurance cost of a 20 second recharge power, but recharges in 25 seconds for no reason beyond "we felt like it." The only thing it has going for it is DPA, but because the recharge is longer than it should be you can't use it as often to boost the rest of the set. Speaking of DPA, that "pathetic" Haymaker would be the second or third best DPA in most of the other melee sets - it's tied with Pulverize in War Mace, both of which are just above Shockwave in Claws for Brutes and Tankers (which is ahead of the Scrapper version in damage scale/second by a decent amount); it at least follows the formula. Since they actually follow the formulas, the DPA for the rest of the set is on the low end because it's saddled with longish animations to look like you're hitting hard with recharges that mean you're not actually hitting hard.

 

Of course, for Tankers Foot Stomp - while having the same 15' radius - doesn't get the benefit of the increased AoE sizes that Tankers now get and because of that actually ends up accidentally following the design formulas, so I guess it's only Brutes - who get the least benefit from persistent +damage bonuses - who get the benefit from it being larger than it should be. So one power on one of the ATs is better than it should be, one power on both ATs is worse, and people will somehow point to both and say, "See! You have those!"

[DrInfernus]

4 minutes ago, siolfir said:

You've said this a couple of times, but history doesn't back you up on it. You can stack Rage with SOs and Hasten and prior to ED - before I started, but when the powerset was designed - could 6-slot recharge and have it up permanently then. If they really wanted it to not stack, they could have set it to not do so as they did with many other powers. So as much as you want to blame IOs (and as many things as you can blame them for) you're totally off base here.

 

 

I'll give you Foot Stomp - it should have a 10' radius for its damage and recharge - but Knockout Blow is an underperforming power based on their own design formulas and using it as an example of why SS isn't nerfed because of Rage is disingenuous at best. It has the damage and endurance cost of a 20 second recharge power, but recharges in 25 seconds for no reason beyond "we felt like it." The only thing it has going for it is DPA, but because the recharge is longer than it should be you can't use it as often to boost the rest of the set. Speaking of DPA, that "pathetic" Haymaker would be the second or third best DPA in most of the other melee sets - it's tied with Pulverize in War Mace, both of which are just above Shockwave in Claws for Brutes and Tankers (which is ahead of the Scrapper version in damage scale/second by a decent amount); it at least follows the formula. Since they actually follow the formulas, the DPA for the rest of the set is on the low end because it's saddled with longish animations to look like you're hitting hard with recharges that mean you're not actually hitting hard.

 

Of course, for Tankers Foot Stomp - while having the same 15' radius - doesn't get the benefit of the increased AoE sizes that Tankers now get and because of that actually ends up accidentally following the design formulas, so I guess it's only Brutes - who get the least benefit from persistent +damage bonuses - who get the benefit from it being larger than it should be. So one power on one of the ATs is better than it should be, one power on both ATs is worse, and people will somehow point to both and say, "See! You have those!"

If I’m off base with that then fair enough, but it doesn’t really change my opinion on it. If we just left things with the flaws they had from design, we’d have a very different game today. 
 

And in my opinion - and that’s all it is - double stacked rage is a flaw if clinging onto it means clinging onto the crash which many players feel renders a set unplayable. There needs to be some middle ground found somewhere.