Invulnerability Unstoppable

[Snarky]

Fix this.  Please.  

 

Okay.  That is what the thread is going to boil down to.  Thought we should just get it out of the way in the warmups.  I feel stretched.  Do you?

 

What would a fix to Invulnerability's T9 Unstoppable be?  Would it fall along the lines of nerfing it a bit and putting it on a non recharge like Rune of Protection.  (I dislike this but at least it would give an option that is viable...)

 

Would you re-envision Unstoppable as an Incarnate style power?  I sure would.  Kicking Defenses up +20% or so, maybe not adding 70% resists.  Seriously, what Invulnerability user needs an additional 70% resist across the board.  You did use enhancers right? 

 

This is where Unstoppable left the good idea track and started down the off the tracks over the cliff stupid.

 

"Let's give Invulnerability a power that boosts Resistances 70% across the board" Dev 1

"It's going to need a huge crash then." Dev 2

"'Right'  Dev 3 (lead) 'Code it."

 

Invulnerability has as much use for +70% resist across the board as I do for +200 pounds muscle mass.  Where the hell would I put it?

 

A thoughtful look at what this power needs to be in the modern game and a REASONABLE downtime and/or crash needs to be examined.

 

Something useful for boss fights at the end of TFs (including a look at how long those fights cycle) and/or a button for 32+ / 38+ users who are getting overwhelmed by dozens of mobs in some dismal map.

 

Resistance to End Drains thrown in would be good.  Feathering in Defense while shoveling out a lot of the useless Resistance.  Creating something that sustains a character through tough times instead of being a 3 minute delayed death sentence for the character (and sometimes the team)

Edited June 26, 2021 by Snarky

[DoctorDitko]

Argh! That sinking feeling when you realize you hit "Stoppable" by mistake and you have moments to live.

Only thing that scares my alt Ixodid...

[GM Impervium]

Moved to the appropriate sub-forum 😃

[aethereal]

I think that the general problem with making the armor T9s actually, you know, good, is that armor sets don't need to be any better.  Invulnerability is a solid set for every AT that gets it.  If it got a T9 that was a useful power that further increased survivability, that's just power creep.

 

It could get a good T9 alongside a nerf to its regular powers, but I don't think literally anyone wants that.

 

There's also the PvP concerns.

Edited June 26, 2021 by aethereal

[Haijinx]

I can think of two avenues.

 

One.  Reduce its level of power to be closer to that of Strength of Will.  But with Invul appropriate resistances. And then reduce the crash likewise.  Do this for a lot of the T9s. 

 

Or you know.  I'm getting bored with the nickel and dime power creep paths in many threads.   Lets just make Unstoppable ... at its current power level .. a toggle.

[SeraphimKensai]

I do miss the days of Perma unstoppable where stacking unstoppable there was no crash, and I had 90% res to all except Psi.

[America's Angel]

In PVP, my Invuln brute has this much resistance:

Once DR is applied this is the s/l resist I'm left with

And this is the exotic damage types:

 

 

Here's what it looks like with Unstoppable up:

Once DR is applied this is the s/l resist I'm left with

And this is the exotic damage types:

 

 

This is what my invuln tank looks like in PvE without Unstoppable (Cardiac Alpha, no other incarnates/accolades/etc active)

 

Observations on the above data:

• Unstoppable is a necessary power in PvP
• Unstoppable is not a necessary power in PvE
• Invuln does not need buffing in PvE

 

Conclusion:

• No changes to Unstoppable in PvE are required.

Edited June 26, 2021 by America's Angel

[Snarky]

17 minutes ago, America's Angel said:

 

 

Observations on the above data:

• Unstoppable is a necessary power in PvP
• Unstoppable is not a necessary power in PvE
• Invuln does not need buffing in PvE

 

Conclusion:

• No changes to Unstoppable in PvE are required.

I never looked at it this way.  (I HATE PvP.  Hate.  From my little hatey heart.  

 

Between the good point you make and the reasonable assessment of Aethereal above....I have to admit it should probably be left alone.  

 

Grates on me though. This is my most run set in the game, although I have been on squishies of late.  If I could convince the Devs to do ANYTHING to fix Sentinels I would be rocking a something/Invul Sentinel.  In fact I may do one for my next Redside solo everything.  Havent decided, might go full Blaster.

 

But it just irritates to go picking through the powers.  Oh, the tier 9?  Garbage power in PvE.  Nice nearly every other set/AT in the game gets a T9, you get a lump o' coal.

[drbuzzard]

While you may not like this opinion, there's something to be said for a set having powers you can skip. Having power slots for pools or epics isn't a bad thing. 

[Snarky]

18 minutes ago, drbuzzard said:

While you may not like this opinion, there's something to be said for a set having powers you can skip. Having power slots for pools or epics isn't a bad thing. 

I will give you this.  Invul is so well focused on its job it does more with 8 slots than most sets do with 9+pools lol.  Still feel cheated though

[drbuzzard]

32 minutes ago, Snarky said:

I will give you this.  Invul is so well focused on its job it does more with 8 slots than most sets do with 9+pools lol.  Still feel cheated though

You did mention an invuln sentinel (and yes, sentinels still lack), but they have a cool version of invulnerability. It's funny that the shortcomings of sentinels eclipse the fact that there was a lot of really cool design decisions made when they updated sets for the AT. Every set gets an endurance boosting power of a sort, and generally there are lots of helpful boost. Well except ice armor, ice armor sucks on sentinels. 

[arcane]

It’s hard to imagine Invuln not being overtuned if it actually had a T9 as good as Icy Bastion or Moment of Glory. (I pick those two because they specifically have no crash AND they ONLY focus on filling the sets’ gaps).
 

The only time I have died so far on my Invuln tanker is when I decided to stand still in the falling swords in Apex the entire time. I got a little excited and cocky when I wasn’t dying, then suddenly splat. I said something to the effect of “that damage patch scales up a tad over time huh?” and teammates just said “smh”.

 

They might be able to mitigate the crash a little, but getting much more godly than you can already be with invuln is probably out of the question.

 

I wonder if it wouldn’t be too unreasonable to add psi resistance to Unstoppable in the event that it’s still going to have a crash? Seems like impenetrable godmode is within reason if the crash stays as is.

Edited June 26, 2021 by arcane

[MTeague]

I suspect the original T9 was more about making sure you hack a clicky super boost to your resistances so you could keep going even in the face of being de-toggled / drained by sappers / carnies, etc. 

 

And it was probably handy in the *very* early issues.

After so many changes to other powers, and how certain effects work, and the baselining of the Fitness pool, and the introduction of IO's and set bonuses.... not so much.

[Lazarillo]

I really don't know what could be done to make the defense set t9s, just sort of in general, into desirable powers.  My main is a /Willpower, and I generally don't bother with the t9 because it's got a limited up-time and all the oomph of a medium orange Inspiration.  It doesn't allow me to make any concessions in my build because of the timing, and isn't powerful enough to make a difference on the rare occasions I've got a problematic enemy.

 

The other more "godmode"-y t9s are stuck in a pretty similar situation.  You have to build to survive all the time anyway, so even the bigger numbers aren't really solving the problem.  Sticking a crash on the end that all but guarantees you a faceplant when the power expires makes it decent for buying time, but doesn't let it stand above even a lot of pool powers.

 

Generally, I hate the idea of any primary/secondary powers being considered easy skips, but maybe in this case, that's what t9s should be without cottage rule-breaking (something I'm equally non-fond of).

[Biff Pow]

There's some End-draining fights where Unstoppable is useful pre-level 50/IOed out/Incarnate power.

 

But mostly it's a spot for me to put the Gladiator's Armor unique IO.

[VashNKnives]

It would be neat if unstoppable just ironically stopped your HP from reaching 0 for a short time no matter the incoming attacks and had no extra crash. Then before it wore-off you better have a heal/insp ready. Seems like it would be easier to balance than messing with recharge/resistance/defense. 

 

As some added flair it could also make you immune to slows and recharge debuffs.

Edited June 27, 2021 by VashNKnives

[SwitchFade]

Turn it into an offensive power, like shield has.

[Marine X]

Invulnerability does seem to have the distinction of being the Primary Set for an AT where virtually No one actually uses the T9 power, unless it's as a Proc Mule.

Just seems unnecessarily risky to use, and I very seldom use it, mostly because I don't need to, which is a testament to how good the set is without it. It seems like a relic from the early game where it may have been useful.

[golstat2003]

On 6/26/2021 at 10:08 AM, Haijinx said:

I can think of two avenues.

 

One.  Reduce its level of power to be closer to that of Strength of Will.  But with Invul appropriate resistances. And then reduce the crash likewise.  Do this for a lot of the T9s. 

 

Or you know.  I'm getting bored with the nickel and dime power creep paths in many threads.   Lets just make Unstoppable ... at its current power level .. a toggle.

 

As much as I argue about not making the base game harder, I'm also against things like this that make it any easier. Especially since there is no difficulty option that would put back the difficulty lost if suggestions like this go through.

 

Of all the sets out there Invul is the least that needs a buff of any kind.

[aethereal]

3 hours ago, Marine X said:

Invulnerability does seem to have the distinction of being the Primary Set for an AT where virtually No one actually uses the T9 power, unless it's as a Proc Mule.

Just seems unnecessarily risky to use, and I very seldom use it, mostly because I don't need to, which is a testament to how good the set is without it. It seems like a relic from the early game where it may have been useful.

Hardly unique in that regard.  Super Reflexes, Energy Aura, and Electric Armor all have substantially similar crashing "god-mode" T9s to Invul's.  T9s in armor sets are generally speaking unimpressive.  Shield and Willpower have god-modes with lower crashes that remain not-that-useful, though perhaps better than the classic ones.  Regen, Fire, and Dark have self-rezzes, also generally skippable (though, again, perhaps better than the crashing god-modes).  Bio's T9 is fine, though not particularly more impresssive than several other powers in the set.  I think of the armor sets only Regen, Stone and Rad offer T9s that you feel like really change the game for the set.

[SwitchFade]

Something to keep in mind for all of us, is how the T9 performs and is used on a standard SO build, from 38-50.

 

While I advocate changing it to an offensive, similar to shield, I am hesitant, due to how it may be an integral part of an SO build. Mind you, I'm not actually saying it is, merely postulating that there is merit in investigating a purely SO build before any change.

[Hyperstrike]

Basically the main problem with Unstop is that it's a suicide button with a countdown.

Fix that and you've fixed it.

[Captain Citadel]

On 6/26/2021 at 10:39 AM, America's Angel said:

This is what my invuln tank looks like in PvE without Unstoppable (Cardiac Alpha, no other incarnates/accolades/etc active)

Is this an Invuln/Staff tank or something? How'd you do this?

[America's Angel]

27 minutes ago, Captain Citadel said:

Is this an Invuln/Staff tank or something? How'd you do this?

 

Inv/MA with Cardiac Alpha, the P2W Defense Amplifier, and the tanker ATO double-stacked. (I have 100% uptime on this).

Edited June 28, 2021 by America's Angel

[Captain Citadel]

43 minutes ago, America's Angel said:

Inv/MA with Cardiac Alpha, the P2W Defense Amplifier, and the tanker ATO double-stacked. (I have 100% uptime on this).

Got a build file for it? I'd be very curious to see how you've slotted everything. I can only get about halfway there with my Inv/SS.