SR a trap?

[Triumphant]

27 minutes ago, Hjarki said:

The problems I experience with SR:

• It has no resist powers. While it does have the scaling resist, the real issue is that it doesn't have powers to slot resist sets. Every unique resist IO has to be packed into Toughness and you can't use non-unique resist set IOs (such as for bolstering Psi resist).
• When it fails, it fails hard. All sets have a 'hole'. But most of the time, that 'hole' just means not being hard-capped/soft-capped against that particular attack. With SR, the 'hole' is extremely narrow (non-positional attacks) but SR is completely defenseless against them. So instead of struggling against certain enemies, it simply faceplants against them.
• No endurance management/protection. Not having endurance management is a nuisance. Not having any endurance protection means that 5% of the time, the sapper effectively kills you by knocking down all of your toggle.

SR on a Tanker is also a bit over-the-top. While you've got completely unassailable positional defenses, you'd be in essentially the same place on most other AT. Certainly, they're not quite as tough (lower health, smaller scaling resists), but you're not really gaining much advantage as a Tanker so you might as well just be a Brute/Scrapper/Stalker/Sentinel.

 

 

 

These are valid points.  As much as I love SR, it does have these weaknesses.  I get a thrill out of dancing on the blades edge, in this way- but others might not appreciate that you can suddenly go from untouchable to taking a dive, if you get a series of unfortunate RNG results in the midst of a mob of enemies.  And from the specific perspective of Tankers,  you may not be getting much that you wouldn't get by playing a SR Brute or Scrapper.

[arcane]

Sappers are not dangerous. Punch them in the face 🙂

[Sovera]

33 minutes ago, Hjarki said:

The problems I experience with SR:

• It has no resist powers. While it does have the scaling resist, the real issue is that it doesn't have powers to slot resist sets. Every unique resist IO has to be packed into Toughness and you can't use non-unique resist set IOs (such as for bolstering Psi resist).
• When it fails, it fails hard. All sets have a 'hole'. But most of the time, that 'hole' just means not being hard-capped/soft-capped against that particular attack. With SR, the 'hole' is extremely narrow (non-positional attacks) but SR is completely defenseless against them. So instead of struggling against certain enemies, it simply faceplants against them.
• No endurance management/protection. Not having endurance management is a nuisance. Not having any endurance protection means that 5% of the time, the sapper effectively kills you by knocking down all of your toggle.

SR on a Tanker is also a bit over-the-top. While you've got completely unassailable positional defenses, you'd be in essentially the same place on most other AT. Certainly, they're not quite as tough (lower health, smaller scaling resists), but you're not really gaining much advantage as a Tanker so you might as well just be a Brute/Scrapper/Stalker/Sentinel.

 

You're gaining close to 20% resistances from the ATO which is pretty brutal since it goes across the board. Minor nitpick because I agree with everything else. My one play with a Widow crashed at my first Hami when the same blasts that my Tanker shrugs off nearly one shot her. A bit like Shield where I start pondering combos and then see I end up shoehorning myself into DM to get health/endurance.

[aethereal]

1 hour ago, Hjarki said:

The problems I experience with SR:

• It has no resist powers. While it does have the scaling resist, the real issue is that it doesn't have powers to slot resist sets. Every unique resist IO has to be packed into Toughness and you can't use non-unique resist set IOs (such as for bolstering Psi resist).
• When it fails, it fails hard. All sets have a 'hole'. But most of the time, that 'hole' just means not being hard-capped/soft-capped against that particular attack. With SR, the 'hole' is extremely narrow (non-positional attacks) but SR is completely defenseless against them. So instead of struggling against certain enemies, it simply faceplants against them.
• No endurance management/protection. Not having endurance management is a nuisance. Not having any endurance protection means that 5% of the time, the sapper effectively kills you by knocking down all of your toggle.

SR on a Tanker is also a bit over-the-top. While you've got completely unassailable positional defenses, you'd be in essentially the same place on most other AT. Certainly, they're not quite as tough (lower health, smaller scaling resists), but you're not really gaining much advantage as a Tanker so you might as well just be a Brute/Scrapper/Stalker/Sentinel.

 

The big thing that Tankers get out of SR is lower slot/set/pool power commitments to attain a given level of defense.

 

Like, it really must be seen to be believed how early you can softcap defenses with an SR tanker, and how few resources you must commit to it.

[Werner]

For endgame, a big advantage of the Tanker over a Brute is how many more hit points they can have when they hit 90% resistance to all types when you build for resistance. Let's see, the resists on the Kinetic/SR Brute I designed for a friend range from 22% to 42% with 1890 hit points, so it'll hit 90% resists between 380 and 20 hit points. Assuming a double stack of the tanker ATO but ignoring the resists from Staff for a more reasonable comparison, the Staff/SR I was testing has resists between 51% and 59% and 2320 hit points, so it'll hit 90% resists between 810 and 650 hit points. That's a meaningful difference when it comes to preventing death from damage spikes, even if they will play similarly, and be weak to the same things. That advantage is even more stark over other ATs due to the 90% vs. 75% resistance cap, plus an even larger hit point difference. 

 

For leveling, a big Tanker advantage is how early and easily they can hit the magic 45%, as others have noted.

[Unknown Magi]

SR is a great tank set!  My experience is with SR/Savage, which has been a blast.  The main weakness I see to SR before it's fully "kitted out" with IOs is that it's a little end-heavy having three toggles so early in the game and no in-set end steroid; Savage helps solve for this very nicely with the end reduction built into the stacks, and also synergizes well with the 20% passive recharge reduction in SR.  Fully kitted out, my SR/Sav tank farms anything (except psi) +4/x8 with zero issues at a good pace, and I haven't come across any issues in other content that couldn't be solved with a few inspirations at worst.  

 

The big thing to remember, as others have said, is that slotting SR is very different from slotting other sets.  In most cases you're trying to scrape together defense bonuses to soft-cap while your set innately provides other layers of mitigation; with SR, soft-capping is trivial and you're trying to build up resistance, regen, and healing procs to provide those other layers, so it's a completely different slotting experience.  It's definitely a fun challenge if that sort of thing appeals to you.

[ninja surprise]

On 9/12/2021 at 4:21 PM, Werner said:

I've done Dark Melee with Super Reflexes a couple times, though not as a Tanker. The idea there is to put a heal in your attack chain since SR doesn't have a heal. But the last time I dusted off my DM/SR Brute, I was very disappointed in his kill speed compared to my SD/MA Tanker. I thought maybe a SR/Staff Tanker might work well since Staff can add to your resistance. Testing on beta showed that yes, it could be very survivable, but the damage output, at least with my survival-oriented build, was pretty pathetic. 

 

Same, I teamed and task force'd to get an Invuln/Staff tank up into the 20's or 30's and then stripped and archived it when I couldn't defeat stuff while street sweeping.

[Sovera]

Werner sings the praises of Shield for damage but the buffing aura is something I didn't notice at all. Shield Charge at least is a semi demi mini nuke. I should have paid more attention to the damage buff when plunging into the middle of a group, but just hitting things with and without it didn't seem to have much of an impact in killing speed.

[Werner]

36 minutes ago, Sovera said:

Werner sings the praises of Shield for damage but the buffing aura is something I didn't notice at all. Shield Charge at least is a semi demi mini nuke. I should have paid more attention to the damage buff when plunging into the middle of a group, but just hitting things with and without it didn't seem to have much of an impact in killing speed.

Against All Odds should be a 65% damage buff when surrounded. It's no double-stacked Rage, but it's significant. And I do love me some Shield Charge. But that's not me trying to talk anyone out of Super Reflexes. Super Reflexes is a great primary.

[Koseph]

On 9/8/2021 at 7:45 AM, Generator said:

 

It's got a taunt aura, I want to say it's in Evasion?  But it's got one.  I have an SR/Claws Tanker, and she's a blast.

Would love to see your build for this , I just got mine to 50. 

[Saikochoro]

I think SR is one of the best tanker primaries - though not THE best - that would be shield defense. 
 

I think something people just have misconceptions or biases against SR, but there is no denying it’s a very powerful set on tankers. 
 

One myth is that some people still seem to think SR is a one trick pony (defense only). This is false. It provides the best defense sure, but the scaling resists are nothing to scoff at nor is the nice recharge boost. 
 

Some people dislike that it doesn’t have inherent healing or recovery options within the set itself. SR is not the only set that has endurance woes if you don’t address endurance in your build through IOs or incarnates.  Same goes for healing. Same goes for healing, but I honestly haven’t found the need to ever worry about carrying greens with me or anything other than reds (inspirations). Your health might drop to a semi low number, but eventually it just stops moving down due to scaling resists. 
 

The only downside of SR is that it isn’t shield defense. Shield has more than enough defense, trades +rech for +Dam and a telenuke, has the same lack of recovery/healing, but a much better resist basis. With a triple stacked ATO on my main shield/ma tanker, I have capped resists for s/l/e/n (75% toxic and 53% psi) and can be at 100% health at the same time. Shield has almost as much DDR as SR with double stacked active defense.  Again, I haven’t really found myself wanting to carry greens. 

Edited February 23, 2022 by Saikochoro

[Haijinx]

SR has that advantage that it take up very few slots to reach nigh unkillable status even while exemplared.  Allowing you to focus on other build priorities. 

 

It doesn't even require very many slots to reach Incarnate Def Soft Cap, if that is a build goal. 

[Gobbledigook]

Older thread but i made this on mids just for the hell of it. Certainly not a dps build. Just switch on the 3 combo Form of the Body Skysplitter to boost the resists.

 

This Hero build was built using Mids Reborn 3.2.17
https://github.com/LoadedCamel/MidsReborn

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Magic Tanker
Primary Power Set: Super Reflexes
Secondary Power Set: Staff Fighting
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Leadership

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Focused Fighting -- ShlWal-Def/EndRdx(A), ShlWal-Def(3), ShlWal-Def/Rchg(3), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(5), Rct-ResDam%(5)
Level 1: Mercurial Blow -- SprGntFis-Acc/Dmg(A), SprGntFis-Dmg/Rchg(7), SprGntFis-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(7), SprGntFis-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(9), SprGntFis-Rchg/+Absorb(9), SprGntFis-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(11)
Level 2: Precise Strike -- Hct-Dmg(A), Hct-Dmg/Rchg(15), Hct-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(17), Hct-Acc/Rchg(17), Hct-Dam%(19), Hct-Dmg/EndRdx(19)
Level 4: Guarded Spin -- Arm-Dmg(A), Arm-Dmg/Rchg(21), Arm-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(21), Arm-Dam%(23), Arm-Dmg/EndRdx(23), Arm-Acc/Rchg(25)
Level 6: Practiced Brawler -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 8: Focused Senses -- ShlWal-Def/EndRdx(A), ShlWal-Def(25), ShlWal-Def/Rchg(27), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(27), ShlWal-EndRdx/Rchg(29), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(50)
Level 10: Dodge -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 12: Evasion -- ShlWal-Def/EndRdx(A), ShlWal-Def(29), ShlWal-Def/Rchg(31), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(31)
Level 14: Agile -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 16: Eye of the Storm -- Mlt-Acc/Dmg(A), Mlt-Dmg/EndRdx(31), Mlt-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(33), Mlt-Acc/EndRdx(33), Mlt-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(33), FrcFdb-Rechg%(34)
Level 18: Lucky -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 20: Staff Mastery 
Level 22: Boxing -- AbsAmz-Stun(A), AbsAmz-Stun/Rchg(46), AbsAmz-Acc/Stun/Rchg(46)
Level 24: Tough -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(34), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(34), UnbGrd-Max HP%(36), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(36), GldArm-3defTpProc(36)
Level 26: Weave -- ShlWal-Def/EndRdx(A), ShlWal-Def/Rchg(37), ShlWal-Def(37), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(37), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(50)
Level 28: Quickness -- Run-I(A)
Level 30: Serpent's Reach -- SprMghoft-Dmg/Rchg(A), SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg(39), SprMghoft-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(39), SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(39), SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(40), SprMghoft-Rchg/Res%(40)
Level 32: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(40)
Level 35: Innocuous Strikes -- Mlt-Acc/Dmg(A), Mlt-Dmg/EndRdx(42), Mlt-Dmg/Rchg(42), Mlt-Acc/EndRdx(42), Mlt-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(43), Mlt-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(43)
Level 38: Sky Splitter -- FrcFdb-Rechg%(A), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg(43), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx(45), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(45), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(45), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg(46)
Level 41: Combat Jumping -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 44: Super Jump -- WntGif-ResSlow(A)
Level 47: Maneuvers -- ShlWal-Def/EndRdx(A), ShlWal-Def/Rchg(48), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(48), ShlWal-Def(48)
Level 49: Tactics -- GssSynFr--Build%(A), GssSynFr--ToHit/EndRdx(50)
Level 1: Gauntlet 
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(11), Mrc-Rcvry+(13)
Level 1: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%(A), PrfShf-EndMod(13), PrfShf-EndMod/Rchg(15)
Level 1: Combo Level 1 
Level 1: Combo Level 2 
Level 1: Combo Level 3 
Level 44: Double Jump 
Level 50: Freedom Phalanx Reserve 
Level 50: Portal Jockey 
Level 50: Task Force Commander 
Level 50: The Atlas Medallion 
Level 20: Form of the Body 
Level 20: Form of the Mind 
Level 20: Form of the Soul 
------------

 

 

[ninja surprise]

Most people skip Elude and then complain that SR doesn't have endurance recovery. 

Elude gives a massive endurance recovery boost, soft-caps defense, and buffs your run speed and jump height.

Getting toggle-dropped by a Sapper isn't a big deal for SR because Practiced Brawler is still active so you won't get mezzed/knocked back/etc, and you can still run around with your set bonuses active.

Hit Elude, do a DOUBLE BACKFLIP then run around twice as fast as normal, punching everything you see, and recovering endurance as you go for the next 3 minutes.

 

Just make sure you finish clearing the room or running away before the crash because it kills your blue bar and drops your toggles. 

[ihatethewind]

On 2/22/2022 at 7:12 PM, Saikochoro said:

The only downside of SR is that it isn’t shield defense. 

This is pretty much how I feel. I love SR it’s amazing, it’s just that I know Shield is a bit more amazing. It’s got practically the same ddr (pretty sure with ageless they can be identical) plus more damage. Still though I find I play my SR tank more often, I think I just like her concept/story more and the differences are negligible in most situations, and I don’t have to hold a manhole cover 🙂

[Bill Z Bubba]

I could ramble on for days regarding the differences between SR and SD. If your attack set can't be paired with shield, you go reflexes. If speed is more important than damage, you go reflexes. SR sexier, SD more brutal. Team more than you solo? SD helps others near you. Like living dangerously? SR can provide more resistance but you have to learn to love an orange\red health bar.

 

My shield/nrg stomps the crap out of my sr/claws for AV killing but if I'm at max diff with a constant stream of aggro capped baddies attempting to turn me into a fine red paste, I prefer the SR.