Anyone else notice a slowly increasing number of people joining groups just to solo?

[ZemX]

Simply put: What you are doing on a team is either speeding that team up or slowing it down.  There's no way to theory craft which that is here on the forums because people will always trot out the team composition that makes them right and everyone else wrong.   But there ARE situations where knockbackers slow the team down.  There are situations where AoE immobilizers slow the team down.  And yes, there are teams where some tanker insisting on rounding up a spawn will be slower.  But which, if any of these, is true depends on what kind of team you have.   

 

About the only thing that keeps me playing this game is joining random pick up teams and then figuring out how each new team works.  If every team I joined was the same level 50 incarnate steamroller it seems everyone on the forums always claims is the case? 

 

I'd have quit already.  I cannot imagine anything more boring than that.  I spend more time exemplared below 45 precisely to avoid this kind of team most of the time.

 

Can't wait to see if what the devs have planned for "Hard Mode" can help. 

[Without_Pause]

44 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

1. My Tanker is Invulnerability. So her defense goes from like next to nothing to 46% if there are 10 mobs gathered around her. The difference is enormous.
2. It's a lot easier for my Tanker to keep aggro and keep the squishies from face-planting if the enemies are gathered round.
3. Not everyone plays with full teams of 8. I often play just with my friends, or my sons. So my teams are usually around 4 people.
4. Not everyone plays a 50+1 Vet Level 1,387 Billion Inf all Tier 4 incarnate character at all times.

So yes, there are times where playing this game can present a bit of a challenge. You just have to find them.

See also Rad, EA, and WP for armors which benefit with being surrounded by mobs, sans Stalkers in some cases, and anything with a PBAoE aura. Don't even get me started about people who KB a mob while I'm on my Kins. I've literally watched PuGs perform better once people got on board with trying to keep mobs reasonably packed.

 

I'm well aware about teams without melee steam rolling. They tend to be end game builds and/or loaded with support. The art of herding around a corner feels nearly dead these days.

 

The current meta being what it is, I can see where people going off on their own is fine if it means the missions are done quicker. Unless specifically stated, most teams want to be done asap.

[arcane]

1 hour ago, ZemX said:

Simply put: What you are doing on a team is either speeding that team up or slowing it down. Often slowdowns are so negligible that complaining about a slowdown actually constitutes a much more material slowdown.

Added some color 🙂

[ZemX]

10 minutes ago, arcane said:

I like to kick puppies and also leave chewed gum lying around for people to step on!

 

Paraphrasing your argument here a bit.  🤪 (<-- wonky smiley face makes it okay).

[nightmarespace]

19 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

No? Ok, well here's a couple of threads about knockdown then:

 

Need more Knockback->Knockdown conversion! July 3, 2019
Knockback revision July 11, 2019
A Moderate Change to Knockback September 29, 2019
I Love Knockback January 5, 2020
Energy Blast and Knockback March 21, 2020
SANCTUARY server (not Homecoming) Energy Blast ... no more Knockback... April 4, 2020
Global Enhancement for Knockback to Knockdown Conversion? July 31, 2020
Proposed Knockback modifcation/fix July 12, 2021
Poll: How do you feel about knockback? July 13, 2021

 

There's more, but that's all I found with a quick search.

We weren't even discussing knockdown (which I love) 

[arcane]

5 minutes ago, ZemX said:

 

Paraphrasing your argument here a bit.  🤪 (<-- wonky smiley face makes it okay).

cute 😇

[arcane]

I don’t dispute that some powers can slow down team progress. I am merely stating that, if you are complaining about slowdowns of the 1-2 second nature, you look an awful lot more silly/outrageous/bossy/annoying/whatever than the initial perpetrator.

 

I team with relaxed players and yet everything is a total faceroll. Remind me why your compaints are necessary then again?

Edited October 8, 2021 by arcane

[PeregrineFalcon]

2 minutes ago, nightmarespace said:

We weren't even discussing knockdown (which I love) 

Well, the person that you quoted and replied to said:

 

On 9/26/2021 at 1:37 AM, Sovera said:

My own pet peeve is Controllers spamming mass immobilizes/AoE fears/AoE stuns, or players spamming knockbacks because 'it helps'

So it appeared to me that we were talking about Knockdowns, among other things. Please forgive me for reading the words that people actually wrote instead of just deciding in my head what people were talking about.

[nightmarespace]

6 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Well, the person that you quoted and replied to said:

 

So it appeared to me that we were talking about Knockdowns, among other things. Please forgive me for reading the words that people actually wrote instead of just deciding in my head what people were talking about.

 

The snark means I'm likely to discount your opinions anyway, so... 

[PeregrineFalcon]

1 minute ago, nightmarespace said:

The snark means I'm likely to discount your opinions anyway, so... 

Translation: "You've proven that you are correct, but the "tone of voice" that I made up in my own head is going to allow me to ignore your facts."

 

Ok, well that's your choice. Peace.

[ZemX]

9 minutes ago, arcane said:

I team with relaxed players and yet everything is a total faceroll. Remind me why your compaints are necessary then again?

 

Remind me why you play if that's really every team for you.  I mean, think about it.  You're telling me tactics don't matter.  No matter how badly someone is playing it has "negligible" effect on team performance.  So why play then?  Sounds like a completely pointless game.

 

I wouldn't be talking about slowing teams down if I hardly ever saw it happen.   But I also only see it happen because I choose to spend most of my time on mid-level random PuGs that are playing for XP, not speeding TFs at +0 for merits or doing kill-most ITFs on No-Challenge settings with a bunch of IOd Incarnates.  Often I am one of the only heavily IOd characters on one of these teams and nobody is Incarnate because we're below 45.  We'll have a few people who are side-kicked and the mission will be on as high a setting as doesn't wipe the team.   So no, we are not just face-rolling every spawn.   And yes, it DOES matter when people are doing certain things that prevent the team from doing its best damage.

 

Doesn't mean it always matters on every team.  What I said was... it depends on the team. 

[arcane]

25 minutes ago, ZemX said:

 

Remind me why you play if that's really every team for you.  I mean, think about it.  You're telling me tactics don't matter.  No matter how badly someone is playing it has "negligible" effect on team performance.  So why play then?  Sounds like a completely pointless game.

1) Hoping hard mode is refreshing

 

2) Other than that, I get my experience of freshness and variety from constantly alting and trying a very broad range of powers. I probably play like 30 or so of my alts every week. The game would indeed be very dull if I played this exact way on one character all the time.

 

3) I wouldn’t say it is “no matter how badly someone is playing”. As I mentioned, some disruptions would warrant serious criticism. See my example of a player jumping into the middle of a group with PBAoE repel. AoE immobilizes? Yes, I consider those disruptions so negligible that the only ass is the one the points them out.

4) Fun half-joking side note: try to see the bright side when teaming with noobs. Had a pugster join us last night and, while he didn’t really help us, he was the most excellent vengeance bait I’ve teamed with in a good while.

Edited October 8, 2021 by arcane

[ZemX]

1 hour ago, arcane said:

3) I wouldn’t say it is “no matter how badly someone is playing”. As I mentioned, some disruptions would warrant serious criticism. See my example of a player jumping into the middle of a group with PBAoE repel. AoE immobilizes? Yes, I consider those disruptions so negligible that the only ass is the one the points them out.

 

And my point is that this simply isn't always true.  Maybe for you it is, but not on the teams I play on.

 

AoE Immobs cover a 30 foot radius area and very few AoEs damage powers are that big.  Most of the common ones used to wipe a spawn are 10-15ft radius.  Or to put it another way, the AoE immob is covering four to nine times the area of common AoEs.   The difference between hitting 16 targets with a Fireball and just 4-5 is huge.  The only time it doesn't matter is when you're on a team so overpowered compared to the content it doesn't matter that they are doing a third or a fourth of their AoE damage.

 

And I don't play on teams like that if I can help it.

 

1 hour ago, arcane said:

1) Hoping hard mode is refreshing

 

The irony here is that it might just make careless AoE immob usage that much more detrimental even to teams that would otherwise steamroll content.  For one, it could much more likely kill the person doing it, but even if it doesn't it sounds like you'll be wanting that team AoE efficiency all the more.

 

We'll see, I suppose.

[arcane]

29 minutes ago, ZemX said:

 

And my point is that this simply isn't always true.  Maybe for you it is, but not on the teams I play on.

 

AoE Immobs cover a 30 foot radius area and very few AoEs damage powers are that big.  Most of the common ones used to wipe a spawn are 10-15ft radius.  Or to put it another way, the AoE immob is covering four to nine times the area of common AoEs.   The difference between hitting 16 targets with a Fireball and just 4-5 is huge.  The only time it doesn't matter is when you're on a team so overpowered compared to the content it doesn't matter that they are doing a third or a fourth of their AoE damage.

 

And I don't play on teams like that if I can help it.

 

 

The irony here is that it might just make careless AoE immob usage that much more detrimental even to teams that would otherwise steamroll content.  For one, it could much more likely kill the person doing it, but even if it doesn't it sounds like you'll be wanting that team AoE efficiency all the more.

 

We'll see, I suppose.

Part A: I don’t consider it problematic in the first place for one’s AoE to not hit everything. Didn’t kill everything? Everyone shoots their single targets at the leftovers and it’s still a matter of a few seconds. I just am not seeing these game circumstances where chasing down a leftover baddy is this supreme frustration. The bickering over the matter seems to last infinitely longer than the problem itself. Maybe in your game modes it’s a far more severe and debilitating problem, but not in mine, so I’m going to give my 0.02 inf when someone comes to the forum to angrily rant about it.

 

Part B: Well of course I will have a different stance on tactics in hard mode if hard mode genuinely makes those necessary. The issue here is not that people are downright unwilling to play tactically, it’s that some forms of playing tactically have proven unnecessary as power creep goes on, and therefore getting lectured about those tactics is just a bit dumb.

 

Side comment about tactics being necessary.. I still get the urge to say “I could switch to some debuffs if necessary” when starting up a tf with 8 pure DPS AT’s. But then I remember, oh yeah, we’re going to be successful no matter what the team makeup, and we just continue as is. Hoping hard mode will result in me thinking a little more like the former without the latter.

Edited October 8, 2021 by arcane

[ZemX]

39 minutes ago, arcane said:

Maybe in your game modes it’s a far more severe and debilitating problem, but not in mine, so I’m going to give my 0.02 inf when someone comes to the forum to angrily rant about it.

 

Then give it to someone else.  I up front acknowledged that it depends on the team whether doing this shit slows anybody down, so if it's not slowing you down then I was never ranting, angrily or otherwise... at you.  You're the one who had to pretend like it's never a significant problem.   You're just wrong.  It's not never a problem.  It's just never a problem in the teams you choose to run with because you're 4x overkilling spawns anyway and so it doesn't matter you're only hitting one fourth of the targets with an AoE.  How nice for you.

 

For the record, I NEVER bitch at people in game about this.  And this is why.  It's never going to be well received.  And I agree with you there. it just wastes more time if you try.  But I might politely excuse myself after the mission if it's killing the fun factor for me.  That's fair.  It's a game. People should play it to have fun.  Not to please anyone else.

[Aurora_Girl]

Containment. 

 

*Cough*

[Seed22]

20 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Translation: "You've proven that you are correct, but the "tone of voice" that I made up in my own head is going to allow me to ignore your facts."

 

Ok, well that's your choice. Peace.

You've literally never said one correct thing in this thread. Dude, either adapt or stop teaming with other people. Imagine the audacity of whining on a forums cause people don't team the way you want or make weak enough builds to need to do so.

Edited October 9, 2021 by Seed22

[Seed22]

16 hours ago, ZemX said:

 

Then give it to someone else.  I up front acknowledged that it depends on the team whether doing this shit slows anybody down, so if it's not slowing you down then I was never ranting, angrily or otherwise... at you.  You're the one who had to pretend like it's never a significant problem.   You're just wrong.  It's not never a problem.  It's just never a problem in the teams you choose to run with because you're 4x overkilling spawns anyway and so it doesn't matter you're only hitting one fourth of the targets with an AoE.  How nice for you.

 

For the record, I NEVER bitch at people in game about this.  And this is why.  It's never going to be well received.  And I agree with you there. it just wastes more time if you try.  But I might politely excuse myself after the mission if it's killing the fun factor for me.  That's fair.  It's a game. People should play it to have fun.  Not to please anyone else.

I think that's a fair assessment. Hey, I do the same with my Emp/Sonic and it has a pimped out build. If I'm just riding along the coat tails, why stay? Though I do have quite a few builds who add to this problem

[Doomguide2005]

14 hours ago, Aurora_Girl said:

Containment. 

 

*Cough*

     To be fair I don't think that's quite the point here, I think ... .

 

More of:  'containment, *cough*

  vs

*pause for moment, spawn collapses*, containment, *cough* debate

 

     Which in turn, for me, boils down to discussing how to neuter the spawn(s)  methodology clash.  Both work separately but not together without the two cooperating and adapting to each other.  The notoriety (or difficulty) does not incentivize that cooperation ... zerg wins which largely amounts to attack immediately upon sight of target(s), which, in turn, for a Controller boils down to use best available AoE mez immediately.  The design challenge is to incentivize that cooperative "pause for a moment, spawn collapses" bit (without overly annoying the player base).  Added that last parenthetical part as I think the Live Devs tried one option with Goldside --> specifically Resistance using ranged debuffers with the spawn spread out all over the area.  When have you seen anyone AoE immob an entire spawn of Resistance in one of those underground tunnel maps without first trying to pull them together or away from other sprawling groups first.  And did that option meet with players going "Yay"?  Yup, definitely a design challenge.

 

Edit:  or think about Council in a typical PI indoor radio map.  All crammed together in the corner or intersection.  Bet you Immobilize them the Fireball still hits them all and a major portion still contribute to PBAoE Auras (and certainly a whole lot faster to collapse to that point).  Now think about those Resistance mobs ... huge effective difference.

  

 

Edited October 9, 2021 by Doomguide2005
Afterthought

[InvaderStych]

23 hours ago, Doomguide2005 said:

Added that last parenthetical part as I think the Live Devs tried one option with Goldside --> specifically Resistance using ranged debuffers with the spawn spread out all over the area.  When have you seen anyone AoE immob an entire spawn of Resistance in one of those underground tunnel maps without first trying to pull them together or away from other sprawling groups first.  And did that option meet with players going "Yay"?  Yup, definitely a design challenge.

 

Yup. There are also the groups (or subsets of groups) that seem to be programmed to never cluster up - Awakened (Freed Seers, not the PDD Squids) in the Wards, and PPD Psi Cops in later Redside content come to mind.

 

I absolutely love these things in game.  One of the things I struggle with in all MMOs - especially in the Launch Days - were static groups of opponents standing around waiting to get culled; the clustering is convenient, but it's not exactly tactically complex. Give Me More.

 

Why would anyone who can throw fire from their hands at a distance saunter on up to some death-aura emitting veritable wall of fists and put themselves in harm's way? I know it is the way of the MMO, but its never made sense to me.  It says something about CoX, it's design, and it's community that I still love this game in spite of the tactical stupidity of a statistical majority of the combat. 🤣

 

I don't know where I am going with this, aside from to self-identify as one of the few players who actually did go "YAY!" when those "troublesome"  mob tactics were introduced to the game.

 

.... that and the thread was drifting downward, it's presence upon page 1 was in jeopardy!

Edited October 10, 2021 by InvaderStych

[golstat2003]

On 10/8/2021 at 1:02 PM, ZemX said:

Simply put: What you are doing on a team is either speeding that team up or slowing it down.  There's no way to theory craft which that is here on the forums because people will always trot out the team composition that makes them right and everyone else wrong.   But there ARE situations where knockbackers slow the team down.  There are situations where AoE immobilizers slow the team down.  And yes, there are teams where some tanker insisting on rounding up a spawn will be slower.  But which, if any of these, is true depends on what kind of team you have.   

 

About the only thing that keeps me playing this game is joining random pick up teams and then figuring out how each new team works.  If every team I joined was the same level 50 incarnate steamroller it seems everyone on the forums always claims is the case? 

 

I'd have quit already.  I cannot imagine anything more boring than that.  I spend more time exemplared below 45 precisely to avoid this kind of team most of the time.

 

Can't wait to see if what the devs have planned for "Hard Mode" can help. 

it will if you choose to form your own teams to run in hard mode. Or happen to catch a team choosing to run in that mode. Outside of that mode everything will be exactly the same.

[golstat2003]

7 minutes ago, InvaderStych said:

 

Yup. There are also the groups (or subsets of groups) that seem to be programmed to never cluster up - Awakened (Freed Seers, not the PDD Squids) in the Wards, and PPD Psi Cops in later Redside content come to mind.

 

I absolutely love these things in game.  One of the things I struggle with in all MMOs - especially in the Launch Days - were static groups of opponents standing around waiting to get culled; the clustering is convenient, but it's not exactly tactically complex. Give Me More.

 

Why would anyone who can throw fire from their hands at a distance saunter on up to some death-aura emitting veritable wall of fists and put themselves in harm's way? I know it is the way of the MMO, but its never made sense to me.  It says something about CoX, it's design, and it's community that I still love this game in spite of the tactical stupidity of a statistical majority percentage of the combat. 🤣

 

I don't know where I am going with this, aside from to self-identify as one of the few players who actually did go "YAY!" when those "troublesome"  mob tactics were introduced to the game.

 

.... that and the thread was drifting downward, it's presence upon page 1 was in jeopardy!

which is why I’m glad the whole “wait here while the tank groups them up for us” style of gameplay is pretty much dead. Granted if a PUG team is struggling and they choose to do that I won’t argue. I just personally think it’s boring as hell. And I’m glad Homecoming hasn’t bowed down to those who keep asking for Tanks/Brutes to be able to round up more mobs.

[arcane]

On 10/8/2021 at 5:24 PM, ZemX said:

For the record, I NEVER bitch at people in game about this. 

We’re in fundamental agreement about how to interact with others in game - aka not forcing your playstyle on others except when plainly necessary for success - so that’s perty neat 🙂

Edited October 10, 2021 by arcane

[BengalBilly]

On 9/25/2021 at 3:00 PM, Ukase said:

Now - if you made your wishes clear at the beginning that it was to be a team-effort and that every one should stick together

This is literally the difference between soloing and playing with a team. It seems odd that I would have to explicitly tell you to play as a team, with the team, when you join a TEAM - and that going off SOLO is not playing as a team.
 

And I agree - I think this type of attitude is what is turning people away from what was once a very cooperative and friendly game.

[Ukase]

11 hours ago, BengalBilly said:

This is literally the difference between soloing and playing with a team. It seems odd that I would have to explicitly tell you to play as a team, with the team, when you join a TEAM - and that going off SOLO is not playing as a team.
 

And I agree - I think this type of attitude is what is turning people away from what was once a very cooperative and friendly game.

It's a question of semantics here. If I am "on a team", there are different ways to contribute to the team without actively working side by side. 
I see this routinely in this week's weekly Dr. Q. That damn tf has what...16 door missions. Some are kill all, some are just kill the boss & his men, and some are kill the boss & his men and some glowies. 

In that tf, it would be just about a kickable offense if all 7 players followed me around a map instead of splitting off in different directions in pursuit of the mission objectives. That's a part of the reason that damn task force used to take 3-4 hours back then! 

Going off to pursue one of the mission's objectives while another teammate pursues another is very much working together as a team. But, again, it's semantics. Look up the word teamwork. There's nothing that requires a player to be in the room with you to be working for the greater good of the team. 

Of course, opinions will vary - and you're quite entitled to yours, and to feel the way you do about it. You're not wrong, you're just coming from a different perspective. That also means the rest of us aren't wrong either. Just understand that the playstyle you seek others to engage in is not the only way to satisfy "team" requirements. 

There's nothing unfriendly about this type of play, either. But - try to realize that most of us that played before, we're likely to be between 35-50 years old. We've got family distractions, work, who knows what else that would occupy our time at a moment's notice. The days of us being able to give something our complete attention for hours is over for most of us - until we retire, if we even get that option. If I did a cooperative effort for each mission I had, I'd be hard pressed to get certain task forces done in an hour's game session. 

There are times when your preferred style is perfectly fine with me. But there are other times when it is woefully slow, and not feasible due to time constraints. But that's just me. Clearly there are a handful (at least!) of folks who like this playstyle you like. Look for each other in game and enjoy.