Nerf Level Shifts

[Tsuko]

3 minutes ago, arcane said:

Lolwut. A game with zero nerfs would innately be out of control broken. That’s why nerfs exist, not because designers are fun nazis and you’re the one true genius.

 

Interesting.

 

But i never saw you both and @Wavicle on the beta server giving your insightfull ideas and testing.

 

It's not a paid game, you can make things change.

 

Write less, act more.

 

[Wavicle]

15 minutes ago, Tsuko said:

But i never saw you both and @Wavicle on the beta server giving your insightfull ideas and testing.

 

Well, that's funny, because I saw you.

 

https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/25038-homecoming-server-update-december-12th-ae-contest-dev-choice-bug-hunters-and-more/?tab=comments#comment-305433

 

 

Edited October 5, 2021 by Wavicle

[arcane]

6 minutes ago, Tsuko said:

 

Interesting.

 

But i never saw you both and @Wavicle on the beta server giving your insightfull ideas and testing.

 

It's not a paid game, you can make things change.

 

Write less, act more.

 

What are you talking about.

 

Did you have a rebuttal to nerfs being a basic component of healthy game design, or is this post just completely off topic.

Edited October 5, 2021 by arcane

[Tsuko]

10 minutes ago, arcane said:

What are you talking about.

 

Did you have a rebuttal to nerfs being a basic component of healthy game design, or is this post just completely off topic.

 

No i prefer to award https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law 

 

25 minutes ago, arcane said:

Lolwut. A game with zero nerfs would innately be out of control broken. That’s why nerfs exist, not because designers are fun nazis and you’re the one true genius.

 

Well played 🙂

[Aurora_Girl]

All fun and games until we run out of Nazis to punch. 

[Coyotedancer]

You're not allowed to punch Nazis. Punching is overpowered and has been nerfed. 

 

You're only allowed to tap them lightly on the nose with a rolled up newspaper now. 

[Doomguide2005]

2 hours ago, Coyotedancer said:

You're not allowed to punch Nazis. Punching is overpowered and has been nerfed. 

 

You're only allowed to tap them lightly on the nose with a rolled up newspaper now. 

Bad Nazi!  Now go sit in your bed!

[tidge]

On 10/3/2021 at 11:36 AM, arcane said:

I think a lot will hinge on these hard mode rewards being worthwhile. One of the reasons (not the only reason) the self-gimp suggestions are so nonsensical is that they artificially increase difficulty with zero compensation.

 

I agree that I see this sort of response to the self gimp all the time, and I think it is silly. The biggest reward the game offers me to me is being able to play. When I read a post from someone who is clearly invested in playing, yet complains "the game is too easy, don't ask me to self-gimp(*1) because I don't get a shiny" I don't judge that person, but I recognize that they have a very different set of in-game priorities than I do.

 

(*1) I don't think it is an more a self-gimp to play a TF with players under a debuff than it is to set difficulty at +4. MMV.

[arcane]

42 minutes ago, tidge said:

 

I agree that I see this sort of response to the self gimp all the time, and I think it is silly. The biggest reward the game offers me to me is being able to play. When I read a post from someone who is clearly invested in playing, yet complains "the game is too easy, don't ask me to self-gimp(*1) because I don't get a shiny" I don't judge that person, but I recognize that they have a very different set of in-game priorities than I do.

 

(*1) I don't think it is an more a self-gimp to play a TF with players under a debuff than it is to set difficulty at +4. MMV.

No other MMO I’ve ever played requires you to specifically avoid playing a maxed out a character if you want to feel like your cat couldn’t beat the game. Soon, we hope, this one won’t either.

 

Because I like maxed out characters and therefore think self-gimping is a ridiculous way to achieve some semblance of difficulty, “Players debuffed”, unslotting incarnates or IO’s, etc, are all off the table.

 

The exception we need to consider more is enemies buffed, as that requires no self gimping (besides rewards rate self gimping). Tie additional rewards to that option and I will consider using it.

Edited October 6, 2021 by arcane

[tidge]

1 hour ago, arcane said:

No other MMO I’ve ever played requires you to specifically avoid playing a maxed out a character if you want to feel like your cat couldn’t beat the game. Soon, we hope, this one won’t either.

 

Not MMOs, but sports are played in a variety of different weather conditions, on different surfaces and teams often play with rosters at less than 100%. Wins still count as Wins, Losses still count as losses.

[TheZag]

Most other MMOs i played didnt have the ability for a high level character to join a lower level team so they didnt have to balance being over powered.  They would just release a new raid where your current gear wasnt good enough and had an endless cycle of collecting the current gear that was better then your old gear.  They would often increase the level cap during this process as well.  These MMOs are 'growing up' and often excludes under geared characters from participation in high end content.

 

In contrast,  City of Heroes is 'growing out'.  New content is being added but all of the 'gear' is obtainable by anyone and not locked behind the top end raid.  And with so many players making characters that can solo the game at +4x8,  there is no nerf that could possibly work at making the game too easy on current content.  

 

Cobalt mentioned a new level of challenge is in the works and we will just have to wait till it makes it over to the test server and give it a shot.

[Industrious1]

1 hour ago, tidge said:

 

Not MMOs, but sports are played in a variety of different weather conditions, on different surfaces and teams often play with rosters at less than 100%. Wins still count as Wins, Losses still count as losses.

 

Interesting analogy.   

 

However, I do not recall a group like say....The F1 Circuit, waiting until a course was foggy and rainy before starting a race because there were too many good drivers on the track.    

 

I understand the point you are trying to get across but to expect players to artificially create hoops to jump through to enjoy a game is not particularly strong design and something I am personally pleased that they are moving to correct.  Bravo to our current development team for recognizing that fact.  

Edited October 6, 2021 by Industrious1

[tidge]

10 minutes ago, Industrious1 said:

 

Interesting analogy.   

 

However, I do not recall a group like say....The F1 Circuit, waiting until a course was foggy and rainy before starting a race because there were too many good drivers on the track.   

 

"They called it The Ice Bowl."

[Industrious1]

A good read.

 

But the NFL still did not wait for those adverse conditions to play...it just happened to go down like that.    

 

If you really want some Ice Bowl watch the CFL, you get that a few times a season usually.  

[arcane]

Now that nice analogy has been stated, let’s recall that this IS an MMO and no other well designed MMO requires maxed out characters to artificially gimp themselves with zero compensation to find the endgame remotely challenging 🙂 Good for sports tho, I guess.

Edited October 6, 2021 by arcane

[tidge]

1 minute ago, Industrious1 said:

A good read.

 

But the NFL still did not wait for those adverse conditions to play...it just happened to go down like that.    

 

If you really want some Ice Bowl watch the CFL, you get that a few times a season usually.  

 

Alternatively, I don't imagine the F1 races are all waiting for a comic book AV (ehem, Whiplash?) to show up for an extra 'challenge', just to make it worth their while.

 

I don't care if folks feel like it is a waste of time to play while debuffed (I'm not running Synapse at +4 every week), I simply think it is disingenuous to imply that the current game can't be made more challenging without asking players to change their builds.

 

Rewards can be had from any content. Difficulty can be altered via different mechanisms. These are completely separate issues.

[arcane]

4 minutes ago, tidge said:

 

Alternatively, I don't imagine the F1 races are all waiting for a comic book AV (ehem, Whiplash?) to show up for an extra 'challenge', just to make it worth their while.

 

I don't care if folks feel like it is a waste of time to play while debuffed (I'm not running Synapse at +4 every week), I simply think it is disingenuous to imply that the current game can't be made more challenging without asking players to change their builds.

 

Rewards can be had from any content. Difficulty can be altered via different mechanisms. These are completely separate issues.

Playing while debuffed IS changing your build. AGAIN, no other MMO says “you wanted a challenge? Stop using all the tools at your disposal”
 

Difficulty and rewards are NOT entirely separate issues.

 

Edited October 6, 2021 by arcane

[Industrious1]

11 minutes ago, tidge said:

 

Alternatively, I don't imagine the F1 races are all waiting for a comic book AV (ehem, Whiplash?) to show up for an extra 'challenge', just to make it worth their while.

 

I don't care if folks feel like it is a waste of time to play while debuffed (I'm not running Synapse at +4 every week), I simply think it is disingenuous to imply that the current game can't be made more challenging without asking players to change their builds.

 

Rewards can be had from any content. Difficulty can be altered via different mechanisms. These are completely separate issues.

 

In one sense you are correct.

 

In the other, changes are already coming so it is a bit of a moot point as it stands right now.  The only question is 'when' are these changes coming.  

Edited October 6, 2021 by Industrious1

[Gorgar]

Will hard mode be accessible to people without incarnate powers?  For my own reasons, I have a lot of IOed out 50s with either no incarnate powers or only a low-tier alpha.  Running at +4 is not a problem for me and I'm really interested in more challenges, but I am hoping they don't require incarnate powers or level shifts to participate.

[brophog]

A few thoughts on "Hard Mode" from an old school (and very grateful) player. Please note, this design feedback is to be constructive towards the end of preserving the (sometimes unique) qualities of the game that many enjoy.

 

1) Difficulty Levels and Rewards

Many games conflate these two to the detriment of the design goals. They do it due to a shared belief that effort should equal reward. A game will introduce difficulty levels but as the difficulty goes up the reward quality or drop rate also goes up. This creates several problems. One, it often partially or completely negates the added difficulty. Sure, the difficulty went up, but the rewards went up to match. Two, the game then becomes a "one difficulty" game again as players pursue the path of optimized play time. Even in games with a half dozen or more difficulty levels, you will often find these reward systems mean everyone simply plays on the top difficulty. Inevitably, in the pursuit to keep players playing, the game is balanced around this paradigm. It completely eliminates the point of adding a difficulty slider. 

 

The principle goal of adding a hard mode should be to enjoy the mechanics and challenge presented and not the pursuit of loot.

 

I expect a lot of people will disagree with that statement because that's not how games are generally made, but by understanding the above two points it should be obvious that is necessary to preserve the entire breadth the game has to offer. City of Heroes has always been more about the journey than the destination. Hard Mode should be about using those things one has collected, not the most optimized means of acquiring them. As long as traditional farming methods remain superior, this shouldn't be a problem.  City of Heroes has generally not had this problem because of what loot entails in this game, and comments in this thread make me feel this is understood at least on a basic level. However, this problem is best handled by everyone understanding this principle design goal.

 

2) Role Selection

Obviously the power creep monetization brought in the later years before sunset made the game too easy to the point anything but damage becomes insignificant. However, a principle design element that separates this game from its peers, both past and present, is the unimportance of a 'trinity' or other forced role selection. There is a huge difference between my controller or defender being useful and being necessary. I think a proper design goal here is to emulate the leveling experience of small groups. A controller is very welcome in those groups but they can complete the content without one, just in a different fashion.

 

This is easier said than done, and the past developers deserve a huge credit here. I think it's even more difficult these days as the concept of a 'meta' has emerged. A danger here in an endeavor to welcome archetypes is to not then alienate certain combinations or entire archetypes through the development of a meta.  This is not an easy task for a developer as a rise in difficulty, almost by definition, tends to begin excluding less optimized elements. If the game evolved to the point players only wanted 1 blaster and it had to be a fire blaster, that would kinda defeat the purpose of the endeavor.

 

These two points go together in this sense. If the primary motivation to play Hard Mode is to experience the content then players are less likely to attempt to optimize their performance through a rigid meta.

[Ruin Mage]

I think the only "meta" to come out of Hard Mode content - going off previous statements/ideal goals mentioned by Cobalt / Piece - is that the team will be well-rounded to be most efficient/effective. That's not to say a team of All Blasters won't be able to do the content, but focusing down on damage entirely will (or so I hope, personally) cause HM to be just a little more difficult versus a team that has things like debuffs and lockdowns among them. Controllers (or dominators) being what makes a run go from bumpy to smooth is a good thing. Same with corruptors / defenders making things just a little more survivable and all that.

If that does or does not include Incarnate level shifts, well we'll have to see. One can still be effective without them, though IMO HM should be where Incarnate powers / level shifts can feel needed outside of iTrials. Much as people have a love/hate relationship with the system, its here to stay.

[arcane]

To two ideas above:

 

If 8 blasters can do a hard mode tf, then it isn’t actually hard mode.

 

If rewards don’t increase with difficulty, then it’s just another self gimp mode. We already have those and the devs shouldn’t waste their time on another. 

Edited October 8, 2021 by arcane

[ZacKing]

5 minutes ago, arcane said:

If 8 blasters can do a hard mode tf, then it isn’t actually hard mode.

 

Sure it is.  If you want to play the holy trinity, WoW is still around for you.  Don't try and force specific team makeups to complete content and let people define challenge how they want to.  If a team of blasters want to try this hard mode and team wipe over and over every mob, let them.  

[arcane]

6 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

 

Sure it is.  If you want to play the holy trinity, WoW is still around for you.  Don't try and force specific team makeups to complete content and let people define challenge how they want to.  If a team of blasters want to try this hard mode and team wipe over and over every mob, let them.  

I have no problem with them being allowed to try.

 

But if the content is easy enough for them to complete, at least without utterly obscene delays, then that content is not genuinely hard enough for this to be a worthwhile development. That’s the mode we already have. That’s not a new thing at all.

 

Fortunately Cobalt’s posts indicate they likely already agree with me on these issues.

Edited October 8, 2021 by arcane

[golstat2003]

On 10/1/2021 at 3:37 PM, Bionic_Flea said:

It's a little bit of both, I think.  There are some people who have made murder-machines optimized to the nth degree that can solo +4/x8 TFs and they feel most things are too easy.  There are an even larger group of people that run full teams at +0;  a team of random PUGers at just about any level can steamroll through most content.  They also find stuff too easy.  Both groups of players could increase their challenge in different ways; some already do.  But what the devs are proposing with "Hard-Mode" is something that will make those murder machines stop and think, "maybe I should slow down and bring some friends."  While the +0 full teams might just think, "woah, these guys are tougher than Council."

 

Actually the +0 teams if they stay at +0 will never see the hard mode. So they won't think anything as the game will continue to be the same for them.