Transferring Invention set bonuses to a different set

[plainguy]

I hope I can express this well enough for people to understand.

Before inventions came along and everyone was naïve to defense numbers. Everyone was just creating the fantasy they had in their head.
EG Assault Rifle Device, Super Speeder, teleporter with Full Medic skills. 

 

But once Invention sets came along and with that understand the numbers. You finally realized that as much as that build was cool it was gimping you..  

 

For me it happen like this.. I was playing my Assault Rifle Device with another player. But this other player was just a massive beast..  He was surviving things I couldn't..  
We met on the forums and he pointed me  to links and I learned..  I try to give that forward then and now and I have those same links in my signature today.

But once I learned about the numbers, the game changed. I knew I could no longer be the AR/Device/SS/Teleporter/Full Medic..  I had to change up my fantasy.  

Today I am creating backstories based on my build and not the other way around.

It would be nice if  you could combine IOs from 2 different Invention categories but choose which IO set you wanted set bonuses from. 

EG 

I want to be that AR Device full medic, but I know going this route will kill my numbers..  So I decide to six slot Aid Other with Numina Convalesence but I want the set bonuses from from Thunder Strike..  So I combine the 2, maybe pay a fee for some special converter and BAM Numia healing power in aid other with Thunder Strike set bonus.

I think something like this would give players a bit more freedom to have that different toon but still retain some of the numbers they want as well. 

Again I am not looking to scam to get the best of both worlds type of thing.  I am just looking to expand the builds from the common cookie cutters.. 

As an example if you want DP/Kin.. The best build is the one 

[Greycat]

Dear lord, no. Sets get ridiculous enough as it is.

 

Don't worry about the numbers. You're playing a game, not balancing a checkbook. Reading things like this:

 

4 hours ago, plainguy said:

But once I learned about the numbers, the game changed. I knew I could no longer be the AR/Device/SS/Teleporter/Full Medic..  I had to change up my fantasy.  

Today I am creating backstories based on my build and not the other way around.

 

all I can say is that it's not the sets ruining the experience for you. It's a focus on "Must Have Numbers!" If you're running a farmer? Fine, worry about numbers. PVPing? Sure, worry about numbers, it's an actual competition. Outside of that? It doesn't matter. It really doesn't. You don't have to be capped-this-perma-that-goes-to-the-bathroom-at-+4X8. The team's not "carrying" you. You *can* be the character you want.

 

4 hours ago, plainguy said:

But once Invention sets came along and with that understand the numbers. You finally realized that as much as that build was cool it was gimping you..  

 

and lines like that and the other one I quoted just make me sad at how much "the numbers" have hurt your experience. There are very few times I've seen any build I'd call "gimped," and the person had to work on it. Things like the /Rad corruptor, pretty sure it was the first halloween event on live. Team picked them up because they were rad and we were trying to fight GMs. In their 30s, they only had the healing aura. Why? They were "a healer." That was "gimped." That was an actual detriment to the team. They could be neither what the team wanted, a rad with debuffs, or what they wanted, a "healer." And that's one of the very few times I've ever seen a build that couldn't contribute or that I'd agree was "gimped." Otherwise, I'd throw the word out of the language and the concept out of the minds of players.

 

Now, yes. I know some people *like* theorycrafting, *like* chasing said numbers, and if they're doing so to see just how far they can push things because they can? Fine, great. They should be able to. It's another part of the game, and I'm happy they can. But when I read something like what you put out, "I can't make the character I have in my head because MUST HAVE NUMBERS OR GIMP!" - the numbers are damaging the game for you, as far as it sounds like, and the best suggestion I can make for you is to uninstall Mids, delete files, stop reading builds and just start throwing stuff together that looks fun. You'll survive, you really will. Go hang out with RPers, you don't need numbers there.

[Bionic_Flea]

I responded to an identical thread that should be merged.  Here's my take:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

The result of this suggestion would be that any set could have any set bonus.

 

No, sorry, I don't think that would be a good idea or lead to build diversity . . . unless you define build diversity by the names and pictures on your enhancements.

 

There's a lot of ground between gimp on one end and the ultimate, cannot-be-better build, if such a thing even exists, on the other end.  And from one extreme to the other are thousands of permutations of viable builds that can do crazy and amazing things.  Moreover, in this game, even the most gimp build you can think of can solo the game from 1 to 50. 

 

So build your teleporting, rifle-toting medic!  I'd wager that with a little time in Mids you can even come up with one with soft-cap defense and good damage without having to transfer set bonuses between sets.

[arcane]

Where people get the idea that you get build diversity by catering to the mindset that every build needs the same bonuses... well I have no idea.

[Ston]

Going off what @arcane said...

I think you're going to have less fun in this game if you try to get the same numbers on every AT & powerset combination. I would suggest you build your AR/Dev Medic how you originally wanted to build it.

Inspirations are key. The game opens up a lot more for different builds and playstyles if you just carry around inspirations that fill those holes you're concerned about. This is especially true now with how easy it is to access the auction house. 

I have a WM/FA scrapper who skipped Tough & Weave and gave up some Defense set bonuses to make room for procs. On paper, this is a pretty bad build and shouldn't have a good time in +4/x8 content... However he is one of my favorite characters I've ever made. I plug up those Defense holes by regularly eating 1 or 2 medium purple inspirations and spamming Healing Flames when needed. This allows me to do ridiculous damage that wouldn't be possible if I chased 45% S/L defense. 

YMMV of course, but I would recommend that you prioritize building your ideal character and then plugging up any holes with the many tools at your disposal (inspirations, incarnate powers, temp powers).
 

Edited October 27, 2021 by Cirque

[BrandX]

Pick the powers you want and then work the set bonuses available from there.

 

My Earth/Martial Dom is far from my best character, 30% Defenses, Perma Dom by 1.6 seconds (so easy to miss) as I didn't want to take Hasten.  Still the only Dom I've been able to get into (tho if Dom's ever get Illusion I think that may change :p)

 

This isn't to say don't try for those insane defense numbers, but if you don't want Tough/Weave, don't take them.  For me personally, they usually work for concept 😛

[plainguy]

Guys and Gals 

I have no dog in this fight.. 
Reminder I am the guy who has over 10 petless masterminds..  So I am creating the AR device Medic. 

Nonetheless don't blame me. Blame @Adeon Hawkwood. He was the one who explained defense cap to me all those years ago. 
I guess at least for me learning the numbers was a wow moment. It was like a different game.  I honestly, suddenly felt a bit more superhero'ish when I could I fight more bad guys.

 

And to over clarify. I posted many times in the first post it was not my intent to weasel or be a cheesy player..  Because I also knew how the idea sounds and comes off. 

 

Beyond that I said my piece about this and have nothing more to expand or say about it.

 

[Haijinx]

While I see the appeal of just giving up and saying "F it ... Over 9000! Power Creep .. cmon!  MOAR! Floor it!" 

 

 

 

Sometimes its okay to just keep it to steady advancing storm of creep that's been bubbling along already.  

[plainguy]

On 10/28/2021 at 8:14 PM, Haijinx said:

While I see the appeal of just giving up and saying "F it ... Over 9000! Power Creep .. cmon!  MOAR! Floor it!" 

 

 

 

Sometimes its okay to just keep it to steady advancing storm of creep that's been bubbling along already.  

Not my intentions at all.

 

I think it is just me not being happy with 43% in Range defense. Always looking to squeak out some extra points here and there.

 

Some builds can take a few weeks to a month. Sometime I see something on the forums months later and I realize  I can be incorporating that into my build as well. 

It is just how I am.

[Arbegla]

This is why I focus all my numbers attention on 1 character. I'll have 1 super overpowered, never able to die character that I will play when I really want to feel like hero.

 

Other then that 1 character, I'll get a goal in mind, and throw together a build that meets that goal. Sometimes I have room for the 'common' powers like hasten, combat jumping, leadership, etc, and sometimes I don't. I've even started playing with the Origin power pools, because some of them meet my concept more than others.

 

Yes, softcapped defense can change the game completely, but there are plenty of other means to play and enjoy this game too, even if you're intentionally using Rise of the Phoenix in your attack chain, because face planting is part of your playstyle. It's not like death is really an issue here.

[TorduVide]

I don't really see why people wouldn't be for this.  Wouldn't it be nice to be able to play what you want and still do as well as those who minmax and focus entirely on meta?  That'd mean everything and anything could be meta.  I don't like this quitter talk of "just make what you want, ignore the numbers" when this dude's talking about feeling more heroic and enjoying being just all around more capable by *not* ignoring the numbers.  What's wrong with having your custom cake and also wanting it to taste great, so to speak?  Why is that a bad thing?

 

How can people legitimately say "you can be the character you want if you ignore the numbers" when the character they want performs rather poorly when they ignore said numbers?  That's no fun.  If they want to be a hero or a superhero or just a super in general with a unique and creative set of powers and also feel like they're contributing to the team or, at the very least, not taking double or triple the amount of time to get through missions solo as players with "good" builds then why not let them?

 

This is a game, as with *all* games the numbers are important.  Ignoring the numbers is just the fastest ticket to having a bad, slow, or boring time, perhaps even all three.  Being able to mix and match sets as OP suggested would work wonderfully in letting people have the power sets and character ideas they want while also having the numbers they need to not feel like a burden or, at the very least, still feel super while taking on a bunch of baddies alone.

 

Not everyone has the time to take an hour or more per solo mission.  Not everyone is ok with lowering the difficulty so much that it drains all concept of "super" out of them.  What, legitimately, is wrong with letting people have the characters they want with the numbers they want?  Why does it have to be one or the other?  Right now it's just an arbitrary rule of the game, yet game rules are one of the easiest things to change, you just say it no longer works like it did and presto, rule changed!  Now, I get it, that isn't how coding works, but that wasn't the point of my previous statement there,  The point was that, as a game, things are only the way they are because we make them that way and we are, at any time, in theory and in the context of just game rules, capable of choosing to make the way things are different.

 

To this extent, I say let's make things different and change the rules if the engine can feasibly handle it (since it's not as simple as just rewriting a bit in a rulebook.)  Let's let players make the characters they want and get, at the very least, more of the numbers they want.  After all, who's it really hurting if players can be incredibly creative with their characters while also being incredibly viable for farming, missioning, pvping, or, legit, any content they feel like running when they feel like running it?

[Greycat]

3 hours ago, TorduVide said:

I don't really see why people wouldn't be for this.

 

Power creep trivializes content and makes it boring. If you want to use sets, having to actually *choose* is part of it. Just like having limited slots and limited power picks.

 

Going into AE, for instance, in edit mode, turning "invincible on" and just hitting the "kill target" button is *incredibly* dull. I'd rather not have that be the experience of *the entire game.*

3 hours ago, TorduVide said:

This is a game, as with *all* games the numbers are important.  Ignoring the numbers is just the fastest ticket to having a bad, slow, or boring time, perhaps even all three.

 

Maybe for you. Not for me. I prefer making *characters,* not cookie-cutter spreadsheets, leveling them and making decisions as they face different things on the way up. Including doing little things that only I see to amuse myself - like having a staff scrapper whose "beat" is the beach and ocean areas who has Mako's Bite heavily slotted, not because it's the best set or best numbers but because "shark." Plays perfectly fine, but would probably throw a min/maxer into fits.

[Bionic_Flea]

6 hours ago, TorduVide said:

Wouldn't it be nice to be able to play what you want and still do as well as those who minmax and focus entirely on meta? 

The thing is, you can play whatever you want.  But you do have a choice: You can ignore the numbers or you can embrace them.  Either way is valid.  The choice is yours.

 

ANY power set pairing with a good build and a competent player can solo at LEAST at +1/x8 by level 50.  Many can do it earlier or at higher plus levels.  You can do this now, today, without having to change anything in the game.

 

Transferring set bonuses to other sets will not let you ignore the numbers -- you'd still have to know which set bonuses to chase and balance damage, defense, endurance, etc.  Transferring set bonuses to other sets will not make any old build just as good as a great build -- you'd still have to get the proper amount of set bonuses.

 

What it will do is decrease the value of Purples, ATOs, Winter-Os and certain other premier sets.  Why pay for those when I can give those set bonuses to Trap of the Hunter or whatever?

[MsSmart]

Sweetie:

 

      I can not trivialize the important of the numbers in game, but there is no need to be extreme at it either. For example, I once had my Storm/Dark Defender that was essentially indestructible, but the penalty for it was that she had laughable DPS even for a Defender. So instead of being in the upper 40s and lower 50s in defense and 50% in defense, I decided to drop my defenses to the be about 37% and the toughness to about 35% as well, switched a bunch of winter sets for purples, and in the process: surprise! My accuracy became awesome, and my DPS after the damage augments from the purples and the Procs is now very respectable.

 

    Sure I am no longer indestructible, but I can tell you my character is a lot more fun now that it has a chance to be defeated and is dealing a lot of accurate damage.

 

    The part of the substitute IO set powers, I have mixed emotions on that. I have experienced when balancing a concept versus performance certain arch types are much more difficult than others, and in those situations being able to switch IO effect would be a positive thought. But there is a problem with that. if you can switch IO set effects, you will destroy the Auction House market, why pay so much for a Luck of the Gambler set, when I can buy any cheap set of IOs and change them to Luck of the Gambler IO set abilities?

 

Hugs

 

Sue

[TorduVide]

6 hours ago, Greycat said:

 

Power creep trivializes content and makes it boring. If you want to use sets, having to actually *choose* is part of it. Just like having limited slots and limited power picks.

 

Going into AE, for instance, in edit mode, turning "invincible on" and just hitting the "kill target" button is *incredibly* dull. I'd rather not have that be the experience of *the entire game.*

 

Maybe for you. Not for me. I prefer making *characters,* not cookie-cutter spreadsheets, leveling them and making decisions as they face different things on the way up. Including doing little things that only I see to amuse myself - like having a staff scrapper whose "beat" is the beach and ocean areas who has Mako's Bite heavily slotted, not because it's the best set or best numbers but because "shark." Plays perfectly fine, but would probably throw a min/maxer into fits.

Content is already trivialized, this is literally just a suggestion to let people trivialize it while playing what they want to play instead of a cookie-cutter.

 

The experience wouldn't be the entire game, just as you mentioned, it's all about choice.  If you choose to make a character and trivialize things, then that's on you.  I see no issue with letting people do this if they so choose.  It wouldn't stop people like you from doing what they enjoy, in fact, the only thing it would do is add a level of enjoyment for people who want to trivialize the content by allowing them to do so and play what they want.

 

You seem to think you just absolutely can't have a character with numbers that are good without making them "cookie-cutter spreadsheets."  This is wrong, or at least it would be if OP's suggestion came to pass.  As it stands a choice has to be made between having a creative and non "cookie cutter" like character and and having a powerful character, but why?  Why does that have to be a choice?  Why can't a person have both?

 

For the person that finds being powerful boring, they can just keep doing what they've always been doing, for the person that wants to have it both they, finally, get to be happy, too.  That's all this suggestion amounts to, letting people who are concerned with both the "game" aspect of the game as well as the "roleplay" aspect of the game be powerful without having to go cookie-cutter.  With your concern about things being cookie cutter it seems like a logical choice that you'd be all for this as it'd allow more people to make and enjoy a wider variety of characters.

[TorduVide]

3 hours ago, Bionic_Flea said:

The thing is, you can play whatever you want.  But you do have a choice: You can ignore the numbers or you can embrace them.  Either way is valid.  The choice is yours.

 

ANY power set pairing with a good build and a competent player can solo at LEAST at +1/x8 by level 50.  Many can do it earlier or at higher plus levels.  You can do this now, today, without having to change anything in the game.

 

Transferring set bonuses to other sets will not let you ignore the numbers -- you'd still have to know which set bonuses to chase and balance damage, defense, endurance, etc.  Transferring set bonuses to other sets will not make any old build just as good as a great build -- you'd still have to get the proper amount of set bonuses.

 

What it will do is decrease the value of Purples, ATOs, Winter-Os and certain other premier sets.  Why pay for those when I can give those set bonuses to Trap of the Hunter or whatever?

 

But why do you HAVE to choose?  Why is that choice forced upon you?  Why can't you just enjoy both?  Having a powerful character that also is a character with what would otherwise be a sub optimal powerset seems like it'd be great in this game all about making unique and interesting characters.  That way you could have just what you want yet also feel like you're pulling your own weight, so to speak.  Or, at the very least, your character could feel as powerful as you actually think they should be.

 

All OP's suggestion does is give players a higher level of diversity without penalizing them for not sticking to "the mold" or being "Cookie cutter" as another person has put it.  This seems like an absolute win to me.  No one's talking about ignoring numbers, quite the opposite, we're talking about having the character you want while also having good numbers if you care to have them, as it stands that just isn't the case and there's no real good reason for it not to be.

 

You're also assuming that you wouldn't need the expensive sets in order to transfer over their bonuses in the first place, which, from what I've gathered from the OP's post, is incorrect.  He specifically mentions *combining* them, inferring you'd need both of the sets you're trying to use in order to get the desired results, thus meaning you'd ultimately need double the enhancements you'd normally need to get what you want which, if anything, would increase prices, assuming it would affect them at all.

[Bionic_Flea]

Life is full of choices.  "If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice."

 

Moving set bonuses will not turn Force Field into Cold.  It won't turn a Fire Blast defender into a Fire Blaster.  There will still be uber players with uber builds and some other players with a generic build that wonder how those Uber players do what they do.  There will still be power set combos with synergy and those without.

 

And I will repeat: ANY power set combo can do amazing things and clear +1/x8 or higher missions solo at level 50, perhaps earlier.  I'm not talking about a petless mastermind with only pool powers.  But I am talking about Mercenaries/Sonic, TA/Assault Rifle, and whatever other wacky combo you can think of.  If I haven't played one to 50, I'm sure someone else has and I'm sure I could make an awesome build that uses current powers and set bonuses.

[plainguy]

On 11/7/2021 at 7:58 AM, Bionic_Flea said:

The thing is, you can play whatever you want.  But you do have a choice: You can ignore the numbers or you can embrace them.  Either way is valid.  The choice is yours.

 

ANY power set pairing with a good build and a competent player can solo at LEAST at +1/x8 by level 50.  Many can do it earlier or at higher plus levels.  You can do this now, today, without having to change anything in the game.

 

Transferring set bonuses to other sets will not let you ignore the numbers -- you'd still have to know which set bonuses to chase and balance damage, defense, endurance, etc.  Transferring set bonuses to other sets will not make any old build just as good as a great build -- you'd still have to get the proper amount of set bonuses.

 

What it will do is decrease the value of Purples, ATOs, Winter-Os and certain other premier sets.  Why pay for those when I can give those set bonuses to Trap of the Hunter or whatever?

You could exclude rare IOs like those mentioned.

 

 

[plainguy]

On 11/7/2021 at 1:10 PM, Bionic_Flea said:

Life is full of choices.  "If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice."

 

Moving set bonuses will not turn Force Field into Cold.  It won't turn a Fire Blast defender into a Fire Blaster.  There will still be uber players with uber builds and some other players with a generic build that wonder how those Uber players do what they do.  There will still be power set combos with synergy and those without.

 

And I will repeat: ANY power set combo can do amazing things and clear +1/x8 or higher missions solo at level 50, perhaps earlier.  I'm not talking about a petless mastermind with only pool powers.  But I am talking about Mercenaries/Sonic, TA/Assault Rifle, and whatever other wacky combo you can think of.  If I haven't played one to 50, I'm sure someone else has and I'm sure I could make an awesome build that uses current powers and set bonuses.

I have TA/AR.. 

 

With the advent of MIDs nothing is a secret. You just ask for a build and someone will post it. 

For the most part there is no reinventing the wheel here build wise.

Again just for some clarity.. 

I  said or made it clear, limited use. 
 

Sometimes when the thread gets a bit long, the main concept can get a bit warped. 
To me the discussion seems to be leading down the road of swapping out every IO set for another.  I went with 3 because that is the number you need for power pools. 

EG Aid Self , Aid Other, Field Medic.  

But make it two.. Heck make it one and see how it goes.

 

[Triumphant]

@plainguy  I do somewhat see why you have the perspective that you have, but I really do think the CONS outweigh the PROS, as it were.  I won't elaborate further, as I think the other responses of those who are against the suggestion, have pretty much summed up my own position.

 

In short, implementing this would create worse problems than it solved and I'm not sure that it would solve anything at all.  

 

[Bionic_Flea]

5 hours ago, plainguy said:

I went with 3 because that is the number you need for power pools. 

EG Aid Self , Aid Other, Field Medic.  

But make it two.. Heck make it one and see how it goes.

 

I'm sorry, but I missed the part where you limited your idea to just three or at all.  Can you show me where you said that?

 

Even limited to one, I would not support this proposal as I believe it is not needed and would add another layer of convolution to a convoluted system.

[plainguy]

5 hours ago, Bionic_Flea said:

 

I'm sorry, but I missed the part where you limited your idea to just three or at all.  Can you show me where you said that?

 

Even limited to one, I would not support this proposal as I believe it is not needed and would add another layer of convolution to a convoluted system.

Must have been in my head but never got it onto paper.. 

But I wasn't looking to do it for EVERYTHING.. 

Again  I don't want to be dragged down the rabbit hole debating over how good or bad the idea is.

 

I completely get everything can be a power creep.

I suggest and  I leave it to the devs to decide good or bad, as they are the ones doing the work and have to 10,000 foot view.

[Greycat]

On 10/26/2021 at 9:42 PM, plainguy said:

As an example if you want DP/Kin.. The best build is the one 

 

Wonder if you put any of those caveats or restrictions after this and they just didn't post....

[plainguy]

7 hours ago, Greycat said:

 

Wonder if you put any of those caveats or restrictions after this and they just didn't post....

Ahh.. 

Good catch.. My head is all over the place. 

I was pointing to a post by Darkir on the corruptors page.. 

 

 

[TheZag]

Sometimes i wish i had the bonuses from a different set in the same category but not from a totally different category.  Like the end mod set that has damage but with the bonuses from a different end mod set.  But i just go with whats available and make some characters with super builds and some with less then optimal builds.

 

....i hate respeccing,  i mostly go with less then optimal builds.