The Unloved SR/Claws Tank

[Bill Z Bubba]

I was reminded that on the tanker charts back in March of last year in the thread below, Claws and SR were the absolutely least used powersets. It dumbfounded me then as it does now. I did note that my current build was sucking rather bad on the pylon time so I decided to fix it. Build is below. It's back under 5 mins to take down a pylon, sits in an aggro cap's worth of +4 Cimerorans with Practiced Brawler on auto and won't die while I go make lunch, and handled the max diff seafood buffet at the end of mission 1 of the ITF plus 4 incoming Cimeroran spawns without issue, without amps, without insps and without barrier.

 

Is it the lack of a taunt aura? Cuz that has never been true. SR gets a taunt aura in Evasion for tanks and brutes.

 

Low damage resistance? At base, this build sits at 42.81% SL, 32% FCEN and 14% TP. That's before the MotT +res, SR's scaling res and Reactive Defense's scaling res kick in.

At 2 stacks of the tank IO, for +13.4%, and dropping to 40% health, +6% from RD and +20% from SR scaling, those jump to 82.21% SL and 71.4 FCEN while still having 1138 HP and sitting at just over 54% defense to all three positions.

At 3 stacks of tank IO, (easily done when it's slotted in followup and your chain is either followup-focus-slash or followup-focus-spin-shockwave,) and 30% health, that's +20.1+30%+7% putting you at capped SL and 89.1 FCEN with 854 HP left. Are there a lot of things out there hitting for 8500 pts of damage?

 

What about on the claws side? Do claws just not feel tanky? Is there a perceived low damage problem? By the numbers, it's damn near perfectly balanced between ST and AoE while sitting middle of the pack amongst all melee attack sets for both.

 

So what's the scoop here? If it was just SR WITH Claws that was a problem, and sometimes is for me since SR doesn't buff damage at all, I could maybe grok it, but both at the very bottom? What am I missing?

 

Spoiler

This Hero build was built using Mids Reborn 3.0.6.0
https://github.com/LoadedCamel/MidsReborn

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Bael Z Bubba: Level 50 Magic Tanker
Primary Power Set: Super Reflexes
Secondary Power Set: Claws
Power Pool: Flight
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Energy Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Focused Fighting -- Rct-Def(A), Rct-Def/EndRdx(3), Rct-EndRdx/Rchg(3), Rct-Def/Rchg(5), Rct-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(5), Rct-ResDam%(7)
Level 1: Swipe -- Acc-I(A)
Level 2: Focused Senses -- Rct-Def(A), Rct-Def/EndRdx(7), Rct-EndRdx/Rchg(9), Rct-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(9), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(43)
Level 4: Slash -- Hct-Dmg(A), Hct-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(11), Hct-Acc/Rchg(11), Hct-Dmg/EndRdx(15), Hct-Dam%(17), AchHee-ResDeb%(45)
Level 6: Practiced Brawler -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 8: Fly -- Flight-I(A)
Level 10: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(17)
Level 12: Evasion -- ShlWal-Def/EndRdx(A), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(13), ShlWal-Def(13), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(15), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(43)
Level 14: Dodge -- ShlWal-Def/EndRdx(A), ShlWal-Def/Rchg(23), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(46), ShlWal-Def(46), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(47)
Level 16: Spin -- Arm-Dmg/Rchg(A), Arm-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(27), Arm-Acc/Rchg(27), Arm-Dmg/EndRdx(34), Arm-Dam%(36), Erd-%Dam(36)
Level 18: Agile -- ShlWal-Def/EndRdx(A), ShlWal-Def/Rchg(43), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(48), ShlWal-Def(48), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(48)
Level 20: Follow Up -- SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg(A), SprMghoft-Dmg/Rchg(36), SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(37), SprMghoft-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(37), SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(37), SprMghoft-Rchg/Res%(40)
Level 22: Lucky -- ShlWal-Def/EndRdx(A), ShlWal-Def/Rchg(42), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(42), ShlWal-Def(47), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(49)
Level 24: Boxing -- Empty(A)
Level 26: Quickness -- HO:Micro(A)
Level 28: Focus -- Apc-Dmg(A), Apc-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(29), Apc-Acc/Rchg(29), Apc-Dmg/EndRdx(33), Apc-Dam%(34), GldJvl-Dam%(34)
Level 30: Tough -- TtnCtn-ResDam/EndRdx(A), TtnCtn-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(31), TtnCtn-ResDam(31), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(31), GldArm-3defTpProc(33), UnbGrd-Max HP%(33)
Level 32: Weave -- ShlWal-Def/EndRdx(A), ShlWal-EndRdx/Rchg(45), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(45), ShlWal-Def(46)
Level 35: Conserve Power -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 38: Shockwave -- Rgn-Dmg(A), Rgn-Dmg/Rchg(39), Rgn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(39), Rgn-Acc/Rchg(39), Rgn-Dmg/EndRdx(40), SuddAcc--KB/+KD(40)
Level 41: Physical Perfection -- PrfShf-End%(A)
Level 44: Assault -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 47: Tactics -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 49: Taunt -- PrfZng-Dam%(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- HO:Micro(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 1: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 1: Health -- Prv-Heal(A), Prv-Absorb%(19), Pnc-Heal/+End(19), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(21), Mrc-Rcvry+(21), RgnTss-Regen+(42)
Level 1: Stamina -- PrfShf-EndMod(A), PrfShf-EndMod/Rchg(23), PrfShf-End%(25), PwrTrns-+Heal(25)
Level 50: Freedom Phalanx Reserve
Level 50: Portal Jockey
Level 50: Task Force Commander
Level 50: The Atlas Medallion
Level 8: Afterburner
------------

 

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Edit for missed calc and a thought fart.

Edited October 30, 2021 by Bill Z Bubba

[Werner]

You are SR/Claws. It would feel weird to pretend to be you. 😉

 

[BillyMailman]

Nah, Bill's Claws/SR, not SR/Claws. The man's very heart is a Scrapper.

 

Per the discussion that spawned this thread, I still assert that it's probably because the folks that want to play Claws or SR are just going with another AT. After all, it's not like original-flavour Bill Z Bubba is really all that much less sturdy than your tanker, and the damage output's much higher. Neither set is bad on a Tanker at all, just that if you wanna play one or the other, you probably want to be a scrapper, where both Claws and SR did quite well.

 

Aside: The brute versions also don't see much more use than Tanker. Stalker sees a decent bit of SR, but not of claws. Though the latter makes sense; Claws isn't really Claws without Follow Up. Really, the two sets both mostly get used by Scrappers. Maybe they're all following in your footsteps, Bill? 😛

Edited October 30, 2021 by BillyMailman

[Sovera]

With -res slotted in? 4 minutes without -res on a fire armor would make 5 minute without -res still decent for someone who wants a bruiser. With -res it's 3 minutes though, and we know the game is not hard enough to require super best defense.

 

I wonder how it would hold against the last boss of Market Crash or of the ITF. Those auto hits were evil on my Fortunata but she didn't have the scaling resists or the HP of a tank.

[Werner]

More seriously, for Super Reflexes, I'm guessing that most still see it as a one trick pony, and not as the hybrid set that it behaves more like, especially on endgame Tankers. Also, I'd bet that one trick is pretty good for leveling. Claws, no idea, but strangely, I don't think I've ever played it. No good reason, I just don't have much altitis. I find a character I love and mostly play that character, maybe for a year or two on average before something else gets my attention, so there's a whole lot I haven't played.

[Aurora_Girl]

18 minutes ago, BillyMailman said:

Aside: The brute versions also don't see much more use than Tanker. Stalker sees a decent bit of SR, but not of claws. Though the latter makes sense; Claws isn't really Claws without Follow Up. Really, the two sets both mostly get used by Scrappers. Maybe they're all following in your footsteps, Bill? 😛

 

As a proud owner of a @Bill Z Bubba-approved Savage/SR brute, I can say it was 100% inspired by the big man himself. While we will forever debate the essence of what is the BEST CLAWS, I can't say his evangelism has been entirely for naught.

 

I would have to agree with both the Mailman and Werner, though; the general conception, I feel, for SR on a tank just seems...weird; I don't think the general playerbase has really embraced the Gospel of Multilayered Damage Mitigation. To them, tanks are supposed to get hit, over and over, and be fine. SR doesn't work that way. Widows, too, are viewed the same, and I build mine to basically be a team-focused SR scrapper. 

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 hour ago, Sovera said:

I wonder how it would hold against the last boss of Market Crash or of the ITF.

 

I'm honestly unsure. But I doubt it'd be as awesome as the time my bio/claws tank sat at 1 HP with some glitched out absorption line across the screen.

[Jacktar]

Hi guys, I ran a Claws/SR scrappie as my main from not long after live went live and it was still my goto guy at Sunset. Never really had enough inf or game knowledge to twink it out but it did every bit of content mainly solo. RIP old boy 😢

 

So, when we got HC and I restarted, I blundered into a thread by Bill about an SR/Claws tanker I realised had the answer to my dilemma about loving the sets but wanting to preserve my old mains memory, so my new best alt was created.

Being familiar with the sets was really an advantage but lol was it weird playing them as a tank at first.

 

It now sits at 50 after being a bucket full of fun and surprises on the journey. It was put aside whilst I rolled a custom farmer and is now being twinked out from that one’s efforts. I cannot wait to get it out doing content at a level I always wanted my old main and now new main to play at.

 

I do not know dickie about all the maths behind the build, so all I can offer is a subjective experience which is that the SR/Claws tanker was a joy to play from level one, never felt disappointed just eagerness to get it performing to its max. 

 

Maybe it is considered “old school” or “visually boring” alongside our newer and whizz bang garish effects Brothers but it is certainly not less fun to play!

 

Thank you Bill 👍

[BZRKR]

Who cares about popularity?

I pulled on Mothership Raids on mine until Vet lvl 100.  I play it less now only because it doesn't earn Empyrean Merits any more, and well, Alts.

 

SR/Claws is a lean, mean, and agile. It never looks back at explosions. 

[Hedgefund]

I'll be honest, I don't like tanks but I play everything to have hands-on experience with everything.   I did like my SR/Claws though and I give it a 👍.  For encounters with hi to-hit (e.g. tower buffed LR, Rularuu) it took a little more preparation than some other tanks might but it never felt overmatched even in those +to-hit situations.  It certainly gets my vote for "best leveling tank" as you're soft-capped, what, in your late teens?  I remember early 20s having 45+ def to all positions.

 

I'm a huge fan for Claws as a Tank melee.  It's not just because of the st/aoe balance, but ranged options make it so taunt doesn't have to be your first option to get an enemy's attention who is whaling away on a squish.

[Without_Pause]

10 hours ago, BillyMailman said:

Stalker sees a decent bit of SR, but not of claws. Though the latter makes sense; Claws isn't really Claws without Follow Up. 

It is the lack of Spin.

[Bill Z Bubba]

10 minutes ago, Without_Pause said:

It is the lack of Spin.

 

Yuuuuuuup.

[Seed22]

10 hours ago, Werner said:

More seriously, for Super Reflexes, I'm guessing that most still see it as a one trick pony, and not as the hybrid set that it behaves more like, especially on endgame Tankers. Also, I'd bet that one trick is pretty good for leveling. Claws, no idea, but strangely, I don't think I've ever played it. No good reason, I just don't have much altitis. I find a character I love and mostly play that character, maybe for a year or two on average before something else gets my attention, so there's a whole lot I haven't played.

That one trick falls apart against Rularuu, auto hit attacks in iTrials( why an SR will NEVER main tank an iTrial if the league is sane), and practically forces you to take Cardiac, or Agility. Don't think you absolutely NEED ageless though. Claws? I dunno, people keep trying to tell me it's really good. I just hate the set, the plink-plink damage early on really grinds with me, even on damage focused ATs like a Scrapper. I'm sure it does fall in the middle when all is said and done, though. Just can't justify wasting money to get it there, not when things like EM/ElecM exist.

[BillyMailman]

I've been running some iTrial runs lately that Bill's been on, and his SR/Claws Tanker has main-tanked several of them. The whole thing Werner was talking about is that SR really isn't just that one trick. The scaling resistances, along with the scaling resistance IO and a little bit of slotting, gets you, as Bill himself put it, "capped SL and 89.1 FCEN" with a decent amount of HP remaining.

 

You definitely need to get used to riding much lower HP numbers than many are comfortable with, and for some trials that's pretty damn dangerous, but there's not a whole lot of places in the game that have both autohit attacks that bypass SR's main purpose, and unresistable damage sources that ignore the resistance protecting the tail end of your HP bar. At least, not all together.

 

Oh, and you need some way to handle psi/tox. MoM will do nasty things to his tank, since it's basically just an iTrial of autohit psi damage.

[Bill Z Bubba]

27 minutes ago, Seed22 said:

That one trick falls apart against Rularuu, auto hit attacks in iTrials( why an SR will NEVER main tank an iTrial if the league is sane), and practically forces you to take Cardiac, or Agility.

 

All three of my Claws and SR users have Musculature. The scrapper and the brute run barrier. The tank does have ageless but that's because he runs assault and tactics where the brute and scrapper don't. Rularuu aren't as much of an issue as people think. Back before the snap I was running laps around the Storm Palace on the scrapper. The eyeballs can certainly lay some pain down but that's why we kill them first. I do think Positron's disintegration took the tank out the other day in an iTrial, but that was due more to me being in scrapperlock than anything else.

 

27 minutes ago, Seed22 said:

I dunno, people keep trying to tell me it's really good. I just hate the set, the plink-plink damage early on really grinds with me, even on damage focused ATs like a Scrapper. I'm sure it does fall in the middle when all is said and done, though. Just can't justify wasting money to get it there, not when things like EM/ElecM exist.

 

I can understand this. You do have to click a lot more with Claws than you do NrgMel but the plus side to that is that you spend far less time corpse blasting on teams. However, I still managed to barely beat the two hour time limit last night on a solo max diff no insps/temps/amps/deaths ITF with the new SR/Claws tank build. Granted, this was around 40 minutes slower than my SD/Nrg/Soul tank but that combo is ridiculously broken.

Edited October 30, 2021 by Bill Z Bubba

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 minute ago, BillyMailman said:

MoM will do nasty things to his tank, since it's basically just an iTrial of autohit psi damage.

 

She can do all the nasty things she wants.

[Seed22]

10 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

All three of my Claws and SR users have Musculature. The scrapper and the brute run barrier. The tank does have ageless but that's because he runs assault and tactics where the brute and scrapper don't. Rularuu aren't as much of an issue as people think. Back before the snap I was running laps around the Storm Palace on the scrapper. The eyeballs can't certainly lay some pain down but that's why we kill them first. I do think Positron's disintegration took the tank out the other day in an iTrial, but that was due more to me being in scrapperlock than anything else.

 

 

I can understand this. You do have to click a lot more with Claws than you do NrgMel but the plus side to that is that you spend far less time corpse blasting on teams. However, I still managed to barely beat the two hour time limit last night on a solo max diff no insps/temps/amps/deaths ITF with the new SR/Claws tank build. Granted, this was around 40 minutes slower than my SD/Nrg/Soul tank but that combo is ridiculously broken.

You don't corpse blast w/Nrg. TF+Fast ET=You ARE the corpse maker that others blast. Never corpse blasted on my EM/Rad brute. But that's cool about the ITF! I never do that on any of my 50s. Don't feel like dealing with all that( though maybe my Bio/Spines could do it. Not sure, she doesn't die outside of +8 BP(DD trial with little incarnates at the time) or maybe...nah she can handle vanguard +4.)

[Wobegone]

20 minutes ago, Seed22 said:

You don't corpse blast w/Nrg. TF+Fast ET=You ARE the corpse maker that others blast. Never corpse blasted on my EM/Rad brute. But that's cool about the ITF! I never do that on any of my 50s. 

What level content are you doing?  Cuz on some fast moving high level teams, by the time Total Focus lands, the spawn has been obliterated, often including the moke I'm trying to punch.  Yea, Energy Melee is way better now, but it, War Mace, Titan Weapons, and Radiation Melee can sometimes be frustrating to play on steamrollers.  SO much AoE endgame....

[InvaderStych]

55 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

I do think Positron's disintegration took the tank out the other day in an iTrial, but that was due more to me being in scrapperlock than anything else.

 

In fairness, Keyes' Disintegration is pretty much auto-death for most anything without outside support or massive self-healing with an immediate dose of GTFO to prevent all other damage than the disintegration effect.  It's not as bad as the original version (nerfed during retail), but it's still brutal on those of us with permanent Scrapperlock, lol.

 

On a side note, where are you guys finding Keyes runs?  I was just saying the other day in another thread that I've almost never seen them going.

[Bill Z Bubba]

Just now, InvaderStych said:

On a side note, where are you guys finding Keyes runs?

 

Our SG ran one on Excel. Think we had to pad with a couple secondary accounts but not even sure about that. BillyMailman has been leading us through for badging.

[Xandyr]

4 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

 scrapperlock 

 

 

 

Should this be "Scrankerlock"? 😆

[Uun]

I've been very happy with my SR/Staff. I haven't run Keyes or MoM with him yet, but the only TF I've had trouble with so far is Recluse in the MLTF (due to the tohit buff the [___] tower provides).

[Bill Z Bubba]

2 hours ago, Xandyr said:

Should this be "Scrankerlock"? 😆

 

It began with scrapping, it shall always be scrapperlock. Even when I'm on my dark/sonic defender. 🙂

[Sovera]

Saying that all my TFs never land on a corpse is a bit of an exaggeration, but I would also take the hyperbole card in saying I never find a target to land a TF. That said I use and abuse Energy Punch and Bone Smasher in fast teams because I am not Bill aware that fast teams do not let bodies live long. But I -am- leading the charge and bosses are always my target.

 

After those are down it is not complicated to save TF for targets who survive. If they don't live in the time it takes for TF to land then they don't need TF, just EP/BS.

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 hour ago, Sovera said:

Saying that all my TFs never land on a corpse is a bit of an exaggeration, but I would also take the hyperbole card in saying I never find a target to land a TF. That said I use and abuse Energy Punch and Bone Smasher in fast teams because I am not Bill aware that fast teams do not let bodies live long. But I -am- leading the charge and bosses are always my target.

 

After those are down it is not complicated to save TF for targets who survive. If they don't live in the time it takes for TF to land then they don't need TF, just EP/BS.

 

ugh. So much brain power in use. It detracts from meditation time.