Is there a Brute Tier List similar to Croax's Stalker Tier List?

[Sovera]

Just now, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

So ... inferior! But the min FX options are very nice and a more consistent damage buff I can see as a plus.

 

When you get incarnate level defenses it takes a good while to provoke cascade defenses though. That said it is solid as a slow moving train, but I can't bear the slow ass damage of MA even with Brimstone. Talk about softcap in Posi though, and Shield only could want those resists.

 

I might put my money on Rad Melee instead of MA but then no AoE until 26 (Proton Sweep isn't a real AoE), but Irradiated Ground's two -res procs go a long way into helping a Tanker feel like they are actually doing damage.

[Randolk]

In my mind, the br00t is a...brutal juggernaut who drives you to a slow, painful and unavoidable defeat. As opposite to scrapper who just tears you apart quickly and surgical. I know, in certain sets it can just be the opposite, but that's just me.

 

With that in mind, my rad/dark br00t is EXACTLY like that: slow, miserable, unrelenting death by procs, two damage auras and punching in the face. While laughing maniacally, of course.

[Without_Pause]

On 1/5/2022 at 7:30 AM, Without_Pause said:

To the OP, no. In a generic way, I just factor in how those sets get converted from a Stalker to a Brute and bump up the resist sets in how useful they can be since Brutes have a much bigger HP pool to deal with. Things like does a melee set use a pet instead of a direct attack as well is factored in since those are good for a Stalker since they don't break Hide, but bad for a Brute since they aren't impacted by Fury.

Bah. Just realized sets which have DoTs would perform better with a Brute as well so they would get a bump.

[Without_Pause]

I don't have hands on with everything, and I'm sure I will hate the list after I post it, but yeah. Not saying things are ordered within the groups. I accept my playstyle impacts listing as slow sets are not ones I like. More so on a Brute. I'm too ignorant on secondaries.

 

Energy Melee - Slower to develop, Best ST and moderate enough AoE keep it not being broken. Long animation.

Radiation Melee - Animation times, IG is so good. AoE king.

 

Spines - Anemic ST, 2nd in AoE, DoTs.

Claws - Lethal damage, arguably better on a Scrapper with Spin having a faster recharge(more crits) and better use of FU.

Dark - Animation time on Shadow Maul, lacking in AoE to a degree, utilities aspect can be made lesser with IOs/Incarnates, better on a Scrapper, see Soul Drain.

Ice Melee -DoTs, GIS's DPA, some mitigation is more beneficial solo, etc, better on a Stalker.

Katana - Lethal damage, sub 2 sec cast times for Fury building and the smoothest set. DA use can keep DPS down.

Super Strength - Sort of ST heavy, better on a Tank due to Foot Stomp's radius and Tanker's target cap. Feels brute like

Electrical Melee - Has pet, AoE Heavy, better on a Stalker

Savage Melee - Has pet, weaker ST, heavy DoTs. Strong blender vibe.

 

Street Justice - AoEs are on the small side, short animation times, better on a Stalker.

Martial Arts - Poor AoE, great animation times sans EC, Storm Kick +Def, best on a Brute/Tank.

Dual Blades - Lethal damage, combo system is a bit wonky/not needed, could go up with a high recharge build.

Titan Weapons - Slowish without Momentum which feels anti-Brute, maybe over balanced from its peak. Legit don't know enough. I tried it at some point, but caved early. Could be 2nd tier.

Fiery Melee - DoTs, the damage king that isn't, lacks mitigation for damage based set lacking in said damage

Staff Fighting - Can be end friendly, longer animations, lower damage

Psionic Melee - Damage type is boon/bust, some longer animations, Insight in need of rework, Boggle is quirky in how to interacts with Insight, DoT

 

Stone Melee - ST heavy, slow, long animation. Liked it A LOT on a Tank back on live.

Kinetic Melee - longer animations for the damage it offers.

Battle Axe - Overly slow

Broad Sword - Overly slow

War Mace - Overly slow

Edited January 9, 2022 by Without_Pause

[SuperPlyx]

That list just talked me out of making any new brutes.

[Erratic1]

I am not sure, "Better on a ...." is all that meaningful to a list of what is stronger or weaker in comparisons of brutes to brutes.

 

To the assertion (possibly correct) that Shield and SR blow everything else out of the water, I do not come across in play that very many SR or Shield brutes.

 

Lastly, part of me wonders what happens when one combines Primary A (better on AT 1) with Secondary B (better on AT  2), particularly when AT 1 does not have access to B and/or AT 2 does not have access to A. There are not exactly a lot of SS/EA scrappers, stalkers or EA/SS Tankers running around.

[Uun]

7 hours ago, Without_Pause said:

I don't have hands on with everything, and I'm sure I will hate the list after I post it, but yeah. Not saying things are ordered within the groups. I accept my playstyle impacts listing as slow sets are not ones I like. More so on a Brute. I'm too ignorant on secondaries.

 

Staff Fighting - I like Staff but think it belongs in the C tier.

 

Stone Melee - I agree with ST heavy. Hits like a freight train and has tons of mitigation. The slow animations are really just Hurl Boulder and Tremor, and the latter was just shortened. Also, they just added damage to Fault for more AoE. I would put this in the B tier (possibly A).

 

War Mace - Really just Whirling Mace and Shatter are slow. Really good AoE and tons of mitigation. I would put this in the B tier.

[Bill Z Bubba]

2 minutes ago, Uun said:

War Mace - Really just Whirling Mace and Shatter are slow. Really good AoE and tons of mitigation. I would put this in the B tier.

 

Seconded. Yet another set that just shines when backed by plenty of recharge.

[Erratic1]

10 minutes ago, Uun said:

Staff Fighting - I like Staff but think it belongs in the C tier.

 

I have not touched Staff since Live and am not disagreeing with your call, though I do want to ask in light of having played in the past couple of months with a person who runs an incredible Bio/Staff tanker and Staff/Bio brute (though frankly I think the player gives the nod to the tanker) if it is Bio doing the lifting or if it is just a particularly effective combo.

[Uun]

Here's the start of a ranking of secondaries (not ranked within groups). I left out Bio and Stone (never played) as well as Ice, Fire and Shield (haven't played since live).

 

Invulnerability
Super Reflexes
Energy Aura
Dark Armor
Electric Armor

Radiation Armor

Willpower

Regeneration

[Bill Z Bubba]

Just now, Erratic1 said:

I have not touched Staff since Live and am not disagreeing with your call, though I do want to ask in light of having played in the past couple of months with a person who runs an incredible Bio/Staff tanker and Staff/Bio brute (though frankly I think the player gives the nod to the tanker) if it is Bio doing the lifting or if it is just a particularly effective combo.

 

It's a versatile combo. Having 6 forms to choose from in the middle of combat can bring interesting things to the table. Or go staff/bio scrapper and run full tilt psycho with both +damage forms. I absolutely could see it being very effective/fun on a tank.

[Uun]

23 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

I have not touched Staff since Live and am not disagreeing with your call, though I do want to ask in light of having played in the past couple of months with a person who runs an incredible Bio/Staff tanker and Staff/Bio brute (though frankly I think the player gives the nod to the tanker) if it is Bio doing the lifting or if it is just a particularly effective combo.

I've never played Bio so can't respond to that. I have an SR/Staff tank. Staff is significantly better on tanks due to the increased targets and AoE range. While the AoE damage is good, the set is lacking in mitigation and the ST damage is meh. Animations on Eye of the Storm and Sky Splitter are long and only worth using when you have 3 levels of perfection. It's a good set, but I think it needs some love. 

 

Also, on a Brute the +dmg from Form of the Body gets lost due to Fury.

Edited January 9, 2022 by Uun

[Sovera]

On a Brute the Staff can bring the precious resistances it is lacking from not having the Tanker's ATO, and for no investment whatsoever. 15% would pretty much allow a Fire Armor Brute to be capped at S/L/E/N instead of having the E/N hole.

 

The defense from Guarded Spin would not go amiss either since I believe it stacks for Brutes (ergo 45% to melee by itself).

 

The only problem lays in the damage which is just not so good. As someone who really likes old kung fu movies and the staff I really like the set, but then what? Spin spin spin, fragile minions die, then there's just a boss and spin spin spins spin spin spin spin, finally dead.

 

That said we can multiply the team's damage. -res proc in Mercurial Blow, -res proc in Guarded Spin, use Eye of Storm as a spender for another 7.5% -res, then go Bio for another -7.5%

Edited January 9, 2022 by Sovera

[Uun]

53 minutes ago, Sovera said:

On a Brute the Staff can bring the precious resistances it is lacking from not having the Tanker's ATO, and for no investment whatsoever. 15% would pretty much allow a Fire Armor Brute to be capped at S/L/E/N instead of having the E/N hole.

 

The defense from Guarded Spin would not go amiss either since I believe it stacks for Brutes (ergo 45% to melee by itself).

9.975% resistance for 15 seconds, after using Sky Splitter w/ perfection level 3. You then have to use 3 other attacks to get back to level 3 before using Sky Splitter again. I haven't done the math to see if it's possible to keep up continually.

 

Guarded Spin does stack, but it's 11.25% melee/lethal defense for 10s.

[Sovera]

11 minutes ago, Uun said:

9.975% resistance for 15 seconds, after using Sky Splitter w/ perfection level 3. You then have to use 3 other attacks to get back to level 3 before using Sky Splitter again. I haven't done the math to see if it's possible to keep up continually.

 

Guarded Spin does stack, but it's 11.25% melee/lethal defense for 10s.

 

You're right.

[ThrillMill]

On 1/5/2022 at 8:14 PM, Sovera said:

Sounds like it would be pretty subjective. Nothing is really really bad (KM is weak, but needs so few powers from the primary that we can squeeze in a bunch of other stuff. Psi is weak, but has a lot of CC and can be pretty safe to use. DM isn't super strong, but brings endurance recovery and a tiny heal).

 

Some, of course, are stronger in their specific areas. But if I say 'Elec Melee/Staff is not actually that great AoE' I'll have people blinking owlishly and 'confused' reactions to my post. I'm not even sure a 'clear times tier list' would be accepted since people would still argue.

Hey! Them are fighting words! DM is superstrong!!! You just need to leverage Soul Drain and Shadow Maul to maximize the set. The heal can be as high as 20% of base health if slotted for such. Touch of Fear is much improved as well after the patch after last.  Give it a go if you haven't already. 

[Sovera]

15 minutes ago, ThrillMill said:

Hey! Them are fighting words! DM is superstrong!!! You just need to leverage Soul Drain and Shadow Maul to maximize the set. The heal can be as high as 20% of base health if slotted for such. Touch of Fear is much improved as well after the patch after last.  Give it a go if you haven't already. 

 

Testing is where it is at, but testing only tests the fighting prowess. Usefulness is not as easily tested since it's relative, subjective, and perhaps only occasional. Being able to recoup endurance and have a small heal is not something that we can neatly put in an equation.

 

But the fighting can be tested and if you want to you can try the Trapdoor testing that's over the Scrapper section (it's open to all ATs). or the pylon testing also in the Scrapper section.

 

A lot of what we do until we pick a watch is subjective. I have a very fond and fun playstyle with Fire Armor/Martial Arts Tanker until testing in a Yin and seeing it's not actually spectacular as it felt, but that build has other perks not easily slid into an equation. The 10% defense and the constant FF procs speeding up all clickies are perks though. But in fighting prowess? With two AoEs where one is Burn and two Build-ups it squeaked a barely faster time than my Savage Melee Brute with one AoE and one Build-up.

 

The same test with a DM was a dozen minutes slower.

[Sovera]

2 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

It's a versatile combo. Having 6 forms to choose from in the middle of combat can bring interesting things to the table. Or go staff/bio scrapper and run full tilt psycho with both +damage forms. I absolutely could see it being very effective/fun on a tank.

 

Almost tempted to run this. The whole build revolves around being a Burn support. -res in Mercurial, -res in Guarded, -res from Eye of the Storm with three stacks, then FF procs in Serpent and Eye to churn more Burns.

 

The ST outside of Burn though, oof, 145 damage, 200, 364. Ow.

 

Spoiler

This Villain build was built using Mids Reborn 3.1.2.5
https://github.com/LoadedCamel/MidsReborn

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Magic Brute
Primary Power Set: Staff Fighting
Secondary Power Set: Fiery Aura
Power Pool: Flight
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fighting
Ancillary Pool: Energy Mastery

Villain Profile:
Level 1: Mercurial Blow -- SprBlsCol-Rchg/HoldProc(A), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx(3), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(3), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(5), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg(5), AchHee-ResDeb%(7)
Level 1: Fire Shield -- UnbGrd-Max HP%(A), UnbGrd-ResDam(7), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(9), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(9), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(11), StdPrt-ResKB(11)
Level 2: Guarded Spin -- SprAvl-Rchg/KDProc(A), SprAvl-Dmg/EndRdx(25), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(40), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(40), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(42), FuroftheG-ResDeb%(42)
Level 4: Blazing Aura -- SprUnrFur-Acc/Dmg(A), SprUnrFur-Dmg/Rchg(13), SprUnrFur-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(13), SprUnrFur-Rchg/+Regen/+End(15), SprUnrFur-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(15), SprUnrFur-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(17)
Level 6: Eye of the Storm -- SprBrtFur-Acc/Dmg(A), SprBrtFur-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(27), SprBrtFur-Rech/Fury%(27), Obl-%Dam(31), Obl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(31), FrcFdb-Rechg%(33)
Level 8: Staff Mastery
Level 10: Hover -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), Rct-Def(29), Rct-Def/EndRdx(29), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(40)
Level 12: Healing Flames -- Prv-Heal(A), Prv-Heal/EndRdx(21), Prv-EndRdx/Rchg(21), Prv-Heal/Rchg(23), Prv-Heal/Rchg/EndRdx(23), Prv-Absorb%(25)
Level 14: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(33)
Level 16: Plasma Shield -- TtnCtn-ResDam(A), TtnCtn-ResDam/EndRdx(33), TtnCtn-ResDam/Rchg(34), TtnCtn-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(34)
Level 18: Serpent's Reach -- Apc-Dam%(A), Apc-Dmg/Rchg(34), Apc-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(36), Apc-Acc/Rchg(36), Apc-Dmg/EndRdx(36), FrcFdb-Rechg%(37)
Level 20: Consume -- SynSck-EndMod(A), SynSck-Dam/Rech(37), SynSck-EndMod/Rech(37), SynSck-Dam/Rech/Acc(39), SynSck-Dam/Acc/End(39), SynSck-EndMod/+RunSpeed(39)
Level 22: Fly -- WntGif-ResSlow(A)
Level 24: Evasive Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 26: Combat Jumping -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 28: Burn -- SprBrtFur-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(A), SprBrtFur-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(42), SprBrtFur-Dmg/Rchg(43), Obl-%Dam(43), Arm-Dam%(43), Erd-%Dam(45)
Level 30: Boxing -- Empty(A)
Level 32: [Empty] -- Empty(A)
Level 35: Focused Accuracy -- AdjTrg-ToHit/EndRdx(A), AdjTrg-EndRdx/Rchg(45), AdjTrg-ToHit/EndRdx/Rchg(45), RctRtc-ToHit(46), RctRtc-Pcptn(46)
Level 38: Fiery Embrace -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(46)
Level 41: Physical Perfection -- PrfShf-End%(A)
Level 44: Tough -- TtnCtn-ResDam/EndRdx(A), TtnCtn-ResDam/Rchg(47), TtnCtn-ResDam(47), TtnCtn-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(47)
Level 47: Weave -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), Rct-Def(48), Rct-Def/EndRdx(48), Rct-ResDam%(48)
Level 49: Temperature Protection -- GldArm-3defTpProc(A)
Level 1: Fury
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Clr-EndRdx(A), Clr-RunSpd(31)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(17), Mrc-Rcvry+(19)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%(A), PrfShf-EndMod(19)
Level 1: Combo Level 1
Level 1: Combo Level 2
Level 1: Combo Level 3
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 50: Musculature Core Paragon
Level 50: Born In Battle
Level 50: Invader
Level 50: Marshal
Level 50: High Pain Threshold
Level 8: Form of the Body
Level 8: Form of the Mind
Level 8: Form of the Soul
Level 22: Afterburner
------------

 

[Erratic1]

1 hour ago, Uun said:

9.975% resistance for 15 seconds, after using Sky Splitter w/ perfection level 3. You then have to use 3 other attacks to get back to level 3 before using Sky Splitter again. I haven't done the math to see if it's possible to keep up continually.

 

Guarded Spin does stack, but it's 11.25% melee/lethal defense for 10s.

 

Isn't that enough to offset the Resistance penalty for being in Bio's Offensive Stance? Seems like a marriage made in Heaven.

[Troo]

On 1/4/2022 at 2:42 PM, Linea said:

Tier list for Brutes similar to Croax's Stalker Tier List

 

@Croax's Stalker thread was an amazing effort and fairly exhaustive. There's been nothing close for Broots.

 

22 Primaries and 13 Secondaries = nearly 300 combinations

Sprinkle in 8 Patron/Ancillary Power, improved pool powers, plus Incarnates and we're talking thousands of combinations.

 

Keeping it Simple

Brute intended weakness = endurance

Brute strength = damage cap/boost

Notable = taking hits increases Fury (counter to def cap meta? includes misses)

 

Play Style

For Brutes, play style preference has a huge influence on any list.

•     Does the player like combination mechanics in attacks or hate them?
  • HATE, this shrinks down the list
•     Does the player like AoE, ST, or both?
•     Does the player prioritize utility over specialization?
•     Does the player prefer weapons or not?

Surprisingly, Stone Melee / Fiery Aura (non fire farming) might actually be one the best all-round Brute combinations.

 

Notables:

Damage toggles in Primaries = Radiation Melee, Ice Melee, Spines

Dark Melee having a heal and +endurance can be very synergistic.

 

 

Edited January 10, 2022 by Troo
corrections

[Sovera]

Ice Melee has no damage toggle in primary. Rad Melee and Spines, dat it.

 

I also vaguely recall just being swung at being enough to increase Fury, not actually be hit.

[Bill Z Bubba]

3 hours ago, Troo said:

Notable = taking hits increases Fury (counter to def cap meta?)

 

Correct, Sovera. Incoming attacks increase fury, hit or miss.

 

Side note: the more I play Invul, the more Shield>SR>Inv remains my opinion.

[Troo]

Good catch on Ice Melee @Sovera

[DarknessEternal]

16 hours ago, Uun said:

Here's the start of a ranking of secondaries (not ranked within groups). I left out Bio and Stone (never played) as well as Ice, Fire and Shield (haven't played since live).

 

Invulnerability
Super Reflexes
Energy Aura
Dark Armor
Electric Armor

Radiation Armor

Willpower

Regeneration

If Shield Defense isn't top tier, I have no idea what I'm talking about in this game.

[Gobbledigook]

I would place Rad Armour over Electric, Fire and probably Dark for the resist sets.