Will Regen ever be reworked?

[Crysis]

8 hours ago, arcane said:

Except this is also hyperbole that doesn’t match the experience of people that know how to play regen just fine 🙂

 

Reasonable critiques and proposal = yes pls. 

 

Ridiculous hyperbole = not gonna help your cause since it’s fundamentally untrue.

 

Eh, no, it's not hyperbole.  Regen Issue 2 versus Regen at Live Sunset wasn't even comparable other than it still used green power activation buttons.

 

But as I said in my original post, Regen at launch and for many issues thereafter was pretty game breaking.  Well build regen players tanked Hami.  Ran around with perma-MOG going, almost able to ignore all their other Regen powers.  Stuff like that.  Of course Fire controllers had small armies of flaming imps speedboosted also....which, again, isn't hyperbole.

 

[Naraka]

13 minutes ago, Replacement said:

(first, as an aside: understood on your first response.  Thumbs up for clarification)

 

Onto the quoted bit: this either doesn't make sense or is just irrelevant. 

Buffing Kinetic Melee buffs all Kinetic Melee characters, but it does not buff War Mace characters.  

 

If you are saying buffing Kinetic Melee buffs Bio Armor because you can combine them, that's irrelevant to Bio Armor.  Because stronger Melee set+Bio Armor combinations exist as the natural ceiling already.  If a Kinetic Melee buff brought it up to, say, Rad Melee levels, and Regen were simultaneously buffed up to Bio Armor levels -- that just means it's competing with Rad/Bio combos.  Those particular characters are improved, but the AT as a whole is still not contributing more than was previously expected of them.

 

If my delineation of "at the AT level" is confusing or seems random: it's the core "package" level.  Only AT defines what Primary+Secondary(+Epic) combinations are possible, and therefore what the performance ceiling of that particular package can be.

 

Of course, if we want to get lost in the weeds on this topic... for some reason?  Yes: the exception is "emergent" combinations.  AKA "The Soul Drain" problem.  You can take a mediocre set and combine it with the right set and get a sum greater than the parts.  I boil this down to a simple A+B=power level for simplicity in conversation (five pages into a tired topic that has now doubled that in a few hours), but I'm not ignorant of this reality.

 

Thank you for coming to my TED talk, etc...

 

 

While I can understand your clarification, one could argue that this also exists on the AT level.

 

While all blast sets don't have snipe attacks, the changes to snipes was a power creep change. Same with removing crashes from nukes.

 

The changes to Tankers could also be argued for power creep or the HP increase/inherent changes for Stalkers.

 

With regards to the Regen set, buffing the set isn't technically power creep but buffing Regen to be at or near Bio would be power creep. You used the example of Kinetic Melee (lol, I see what you did there). Kin does need help, I don't think anyone is arguing that... But buffing kin to be equal to TW would certainly be power creep.

 

It's going to be a case by case thing here. Buffing Regen with some niche utility and maybe a bump in mitigation by making Revive more useful is different from buffing Regen to compete with Rad or to change it to Sent Regen.

 

The concept of Power creep kind of relies on a logic fallacy, but if there's provable evidence to back the assertion, it's not as much a fallacy anymore.

[arcane]

19 minutes ago, Crysis said:

 

Eh, no, it's not hyperbole.  Regen Issue 2 versus Regen at Live Sunset wasn't even comparable other than it still used green power activation buttons.

 

But as I said in my original post, Regen at launch and for many issues thereafter was pretty game breaking.  Well build regen players tanked Hami.  Ran around with perma-MOG going, almost able to ignore all their other Regen powers.  Stuff like that.  Of course Fire controllers had small armies of flaming imps speedboosted also....which, again, isn't hyperbole.

 

I can’t recall what I quoted but I’m positive that whatever I was calling hyperbole was a statement of how bad regen is now, NOT a statement of how good regen was back then. The latter I’m fully aware of and yes it was so powerful that it’d be difficult to exaggerate.

[Luminara]

52 minutes ago, MTeague said:

I don't think I've ever taken Hand Clap, ever.

 

I did.  But I only used it for this.

 

[Solarverse]

45 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

I did.  But I only used it for this.

 

 

I never used it until KB to KD IOs came out, then I started using it, it's a nice stun and a great KD once you do that. Great damage mitigation, especially against foes you have lesser resistance to. In other words, I'm guilty of using Hand Clap. Plus I love the way it goes BOOM!

 

[arcane]

**Good news to Team Regen Sucks**:

 

I am giving up with 2 SIBYLS still left because after my 2nd faceplant (first in the chokepoint, second in the final big Sibyl room), I realized I still had Amplifiers on. Yes, I gave up on the Sibyl stage. I won’t survive the seafood ambush.
 

Does it have less mitigation than SR? Shield? Invuln? Yes for sure. All the sets? Idk about that but it’s possible. Is this bad by any standard I personally value? Eh, not really. I would normally click insps if I have to, so wouldn't have died.

 

Here is my build. You can absolutely get more defense if you want. Not sure how much that will do against the Romans, but it's just not my thing. I prefer insps, probably teammates, and therefore probably building for offense or, ideally, procs. 

 

Edited January 29, 2022 by arcane

[Solarverse]

57 minutes ago, arcane said:

**Good news to Team Regen Sucks**:

 

I am giving up with 2 SIBYLS still left because after my 2nd faceplant (first in the chokepoint, second in the final big Sibyl room), I realized I still had Amplifiers on. Yes, I gave up on the Sibyl stage. I won’t survive the seafood ambush.
 

Does it have less mitigation than SR? Shield? Invuln? Yes for sure. All the sets? Idk about that but it’s possible. Is this bad by any standard I personally value? Eh, not really. I would normally click insps if I have to, so wouldn't have died.

 

Here is my build. You can absolutely get more defense if you want. Not sure how much that will do against the Romans, but it's just not my thing. I prefer insps, probably teammates, and therefore probably building for offense or, ideally, procs. 

 

 

If it's any consolation to you, no matter how much defense you have, it won't be enough without also having resistance to defense debuffs. You would have been better off maxing out your resistance, but even then, I don't think it would have been enough. Long story short, it's not your build. Thank you for your honesty. Very much appreciated regardless of the outcome.

[MTeague]

Well, if enough defense can buy a Blaster enough time, it can probably buy a /Regen enough time. Once cascade starts, yea, it goes quick, but if you rip down half your enemies by then, it still may be enough to win. You just might not be steamrolling the whole way.

[Solarverse]

Just now, MTeague said:

Well, if enough defense can buy a Blaster enough time, it can probably buy a /Regen enough time. Once cascade starts, yea, it goes quick, but if you rip down half your enemies by then, it still may be enough to win. You just might not be steamrolling the whole way.

 

Mitigation is the key on a Scrapper to buy you time to let those stacking debuffs wear off. But the difference between a Blaster is that a Blaster has nukes that can pretty much damn near one shot the entire mob. All the Blaster has to do is stay alive long enough to explode and he/she can move on to the next mob. Had he been playing something like say, SS/Regen Brute with Hand Clap included in his build along side Foot Stomp, it might have been a completely different story. Instead of telling sad tales of defeat, he might have been instead telling stories of victory. Like Bill Z said earlier if I am not mistaken, Troo pulled it off on a Regen, so it can obviously be done.

[Wavicle]

1 hour ago, arcane said:

Here is my build. You can absolutely get more defense if you want. Not sure how much that will do against the Romans, but it's just not my thing. I prefer insps, probably teammates, and therefore probably building for offense or, ideally, procs. 

 

I can't tell just by looking at the build, but I wonder if building for more Recharge might help?

[Spaghetti Betty]

1 hour ago, arcane said:

 

Here is my build. You can absolutely get more defense if you want. Not sure how much that will do against the Romans, but it's just not my thing. I prefer insps, probably teammates, and therefore probably building for offense or, ideally, procs. 

 

 

 

 

IMO, Ice Patch and positioning probably could've dealt with most frustrations in the 1st mish, including the ambush at the end.

[arcane]

40 minutes ago, Spaghetti Betty said:

IMO, Ice Patch and positioning probably could've dealt with most frustrations in the 1st mish, including the ambush at the end.

Probably yeah. It’s not optimal at AoE stuff in general either (Frost is also good, so are procs).

 

I wanted to lean into the S/T power of Freezing Touch so stretched for Cross Punch, which gets Armageddon and Fury of the Gladiator into your S/T attack chain. The build is better at S/T DPS but worse at AoE DPS than most Ice Melee builds I would make. I bet its pylon time is OKish.

 

Ice Patch WAS on the shortlist before the final cut 🙂

Edited January 29, 2022 by arcane

[PeregrineFalcon]

Wait. So did Arcane just prove that a /Regen Scrapper or Brute with IOs and Incarnate powers can't survive a mission that a lot of SO ONLY Scrappers and Brutes can? Is that what I just saw?

 

I'm just trying to verify this before I yell out "I told you all that Regen Tankers will just suck and die!" at the top of my lungs.

[arcane]

2 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Wait. So did Arcane just prove that a /Regen Scrapper or Brute with IOs and Incarnate powers can't survive a mission that a lot of SO ONLY Scrappers and Brutes can? Is that what I just saw?

 

I'm just trying to verify this before I yell out "I told you all that Regen Tankers will just suck and die!" at the top of my lungs.

With inspirations disallowed, yes. Inspirations sitting in my full tray would’ve easily prevented this. And other aforementioned caveats about the build such as minimal defense investment and minimal AoE power...

 

I didn’t have to post the blunt truth, don’t make me regret it.

[PeregrineFalcon]

13 minutes ago, arcane said:

I didn’t have to post the blunt truth, don’t make me regret it.

I hope you don't regret it. I for one am happy that you took the time to test it and post the results.

 

The purpose of this wasn't really to "prove you wrong", it was to show people, and hopefully the developers, a couple of things:

1. That people want Regen ported to Tankers.
2. That Regen is provably the worst armor set for melee characters and needs to be improved even if they're not going to port it to Tankers.

 

Oh sure, I was giving you a hard time. Well, not just you, but everyone who kept saying "Regen is fine" in the face of obvious evidence to the contrary. You may be unhappy that you were proven wrong, but your test might very well result in Regen being improved and possibly even ported to Tankers. In comparison to that accomplishment a couple of laughs by some old knucklehead on the forum who's named himself after a bird shouldn't matter.

[GM Impervium]

Hey all.

I pruned some argumentative posts a few pages back, and I'd like to remind everyone to keep it friendly. But overall, there's been some good discussion here, so keep it up 🙂

[arcane]

50 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

I hope you don't regret it. I for one am happy that you took the time to test it and post the results.

 

The purpose of this wasn't really to "prove you wrong", it was to show people, and hopefully the developers, a couple of things:

1. That people want Regen ported to Tankers.
2. That Regen is provably the worst armor set for melee characters and needs to be improved even if they're not going to port it to Tankers.

 

Oh sure, I was giving you a hard time. Well, not just you, but everyone who kept saying "Regen is fine" in the face of obvious evidence to the contrary. You may be unhappy that you were proven wrong, but your test might very well result in Regen being improved and possibly even ported to Tankers. In comparison to that accomplishment a couple of laughs by some old knucklehead on the forum who's named himself after a bird shouldn't matter.

Sure, yes, fine, but think we might be a little hasty here though. Sure, I’m positive some sets like SR, Shield, Invuln, EA and Stone would be better off here at least. But some people should still do some less lazy/vague testing than I did. 
 

I suspect surely Fiery Aura would struggle under the same conditions, but there are big offensive reasons that’s ok. But it isn’t obvious to me that, say, an Electric Armor Brute with no inspirations would fair so much better.

Edited January 30, 2022 by arcane

[Solarverse]

1 minute ago, arcane said:

Sure, yes, fine, but think we might be a little hasty here though. Sure, I’m positive SR would be fine here and logically probably a number of others. But some people should still do some less lazy testing than I did. 
 

I suspect surely Fiery Aura would struggle under the same conditions, but there are big offensive reasons that’s ok. But it isn’t obvious to me that, say, an Electric Armor Brute with no inspirations would fair so much better.

 

It just so happens I have a Stone/Elec Brute. I can honestly say, I don't expect he would fair much better than you did. But I may give it a shot sometime within the next day or two and post the results.

[A Cat]

3 hours ago, arcane said:

With inspirations disallowed, yes. Inspirations sitting in my full tray would’ve easily prevented this. And other aforementioned caveats about the build such as minimal defense investment and minimal AoE power...

 

I didn’t have to post the blunt truth, don’t make me regret it.

What were all the settings that you ended up running on? +4x8 no insps I'm guessing? I have an elec/elec brute and a claws/elec brute I can run this on though I am not fully T4'd. 

[Troo]

4 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Wait. So did Arcane just prove that a /Regen Scrapper or Brute with IOs and Incarnate powers can't survive a mission that a lot of SO ONLY Scrappers and Brutes can? Is that what I just saw?

 

I'm just trying to verify this before I yell out "I told you all that Regen Tankers will just suck and die!" at the top of my lungs.

 

Um.. Hi.

I think I may have missed the post about your solo ITF. Would you mind refreshing my memory? A couple of us might gain some insight from that experience. 

 

I'm pretty sure if I can do it on a Brute, a Tank would likely be able to as well. It's a brave soul who trys on a Scrapper.

 

On 1/28/2022 at 4:56 PM, arcane said:

Here is my build. You can absolutely get more defense if you want. Not sure how much that will do against the Romans, but it's just not my thing. I prefer insps, probably teammates, and therefore probably building for offense or, ideally, procs. 

 

How did Burnout do? Was it helpful?

If it was I might look to squeeze it in.

 

Rune of Protection was pretty valuable for me. I also went with Darkest Night (not something a Shield, EA, or SR would need to consider). 

I was very selective when engaging groups, big boss got the toggle while a surgeon or high priority target took my initial attack.

I toyed with having mission specific builds but that hurt my head to consider.

 

[Naraka]

4 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

I hope you don't regret it. I for one am happy that you took the time to test it and post the results.

 

The purpose of this wasn't really to "prove you wrong", it was to show people, and hopefully the developers, a couple of things:

1. That people want Regen ported to Tankers.
2. That Regen is provably the worst armor set for melee characters and needs to be improved even if they're not going to port it to Tankers.

 

Oh sure, I was giving you a hard time. Well, not just you, but everyone who kept saying "Regen is fine" in the face of obvious evidence to the contrary. You may be unhappy that you were proven wrong, but your test might very well result in Regen being improved and possibly even ported to Tankers. In comparison to that accomplishment a couple of laughs by some old knucklehead on the forum who's named himself after a bird shouldn't matter.

 

Lol I think you're jumping the gun. Throwing around terms like "proves" is just as hyperbolic as your view of posters saying "Regen is fine". I'd have said something more like "that's supporting anecdotal research for adding improvements to the set".

 

I could flip the logic and say a set that can do the mission with SOs only and solo is too strong and should be nerfed down but I'm not taking one circumstantial test as proof.

 

That said, I certainly think Ice Patch would have bridged a lot of gaps for practically any armor set in such a situation. Is Cross Punch providing that much burst damage and mez? I suppose I'm one of those old hats that like to keep situation powers in my pocket for instances like this rather than going all in on offense which doesn't suit Regen. And Burnout is just not available often enough for me to ever want to pick it up (I'm also not a huge fan of hasten so I don't even get that often).

 

Speaking of Burnout, I believe I heard suggestions to improve Regen's Revive by giving it a similar effect to Burnout but only for your Regen clicks.  Using it while KO'ed would mean you're put back on your feet with all your heal/regen clicks available again to start anew and using Revive while alive would refresh your Regen clicks but put Revive on a x2 recharge...something like that...it would still be a niche power...not sure how OP that would be in the grand scheme of things.

[wjrasmussen]

How about giving Dull Pain some defense buff while it is running and some resist to reconstruction.

[arcane]

1 hour ago, Naraka said:

That said, I certainly think Ice Patch would have bridged a lot of gaps for practically any armor set in such a situation. Is Cross Punch providing that much burst damage and mez? I suppose I'm one of those old hats that like to keep situation powers in my pocket for instances like this rather than going all in on offense which doesn't suit Regen. And Burnout is just not available often enough for me to ever want to pick it up (I'm also not a huge fan of hasten so I don't even get that often).

All true, but, again, remember my build was not built for these conditions. Sure I forget to use inspirations when playing casually, but I hardly ever actively avoid them. I don’t email chain or buy big insps, just modest usage in tight spots that tends to be pretty reliable and sustainable. And so I have an offensive build because it was never a problem in my world. If I wanted to build around this test I would do a lot of things different. Ice Patch and Rune of Protection would both be strongly considered, and Cross Punch would be out in a heartbeat. Recharge bonuses would probably curbed and better balanced with Defense and Resistance.
 

@TrooBurnout is pretty meh but synergizes better with Regen than almost anything else. It’s essentially a get-out-of-jail-free card because the only thing that kills you is something that out-DPS’s you with all 4 clicks still on recharge. Burnout gives you a freebie reset of that cycle of click powers if you’re under too much pressure.

Edited January 30, 2022 by arcane

[Solarverse]

9 hours ago, A Cat said:

What were all the settings that you ended up running on? +4x8 no insps I'm guessing? I have an elec/elec brute and a claws/elec brute I can run this on though I am not fully T4'd. 

 

I ran my Stone/Elec Brute last night, it was an epic fail. I couldn't even get passed the first mob. Here are the rules...

+4/x8 w/bosses and AVs.

Solo

No temps, no insps, no faceplants Enemies buffed.

[Solarverse]

7 hours ago, Naraka said:

 

I could flip the logic and say a set that can do the mission with SOs only and solo is too strong and should be nerfed down

 

 

Nobody has done it with SO's only to the best of my knowledge.