Will Regen ever be reworked?

[Solarverse]

Just now, arcane said:

If we’re looking at SO only builds, Regen isn’t even bad relatively speaking because tons of stuff is that bad and worse. I provided one example.

 

An example that I strongly disagree with, which is why I said, let's agree to disagree, but I guess you would rather continue to argue even though I have already conceded due to a lack of will to argue about it further.

[arcane]

Just now, Solarverse said:

 

An example that I strongly disagree with, which is why I said, let's agree to disagree, but I guess you would rather continue to argue even though I have already conceded due to a lack of will to argue about it further.

Ok then. I acknowledge we aren’t looking at the same reality.

[Solarverse]

Just now, arcane said:

Ok then. I acknowledge we aren’t looking at the same reality.

 

Sure thing, whatever it takes to end this.

[Troo]

@Solarverse If a question is posed to players who currently play Regeneration it might get one response vs posing a question to folks who don't play it as much or want it to be like another set.

 

I love that Regeneration is reactive vs set it & forget it.

I enjoy recognizing what's happening and deciding what to do about it.

THIS IS THE BEST THING ABOUT IT and this has NOTHING to do with soft capping, DPS, or some other meta.

 

Suggestions that propose reworking it into toggles or auto powers might be non-starters. We have sets like that, don't we?

 

Suggestions that propose small adjustments or filling an outsized vulnerability could be less controversial and welcome.

• The game provides avenues to overcome many challenges a Regen might face. -recharge debuffs can be challenging.

 

I agree with @Bill Z Bubba that some set has to be at the bottom of a list. Is it Regeneration, not in my opinion, but opinions vary.. 

I also agree with @Shred Monkey that +100% base max HP and a larger HP pool could = big benefits for regen powers. Regen Tank = compelling

 

[Psi-bolt]

Back on live, I was one of the biggest boosters for Regen and right now.... It's fine.  It's not as strong as other sets, but in the years that COH was offline, I had the opportunity to play other games and realized that games can be much more fun if you're not so overpowered all the time.  

 

If Regen were to get reworked, here are three things I would do:

 

1. Replace Stalker/Brute/Scrapper Regen with Sentinel Regen
2. Buff all the powers that are only 1/2 enhanceable so that they are fully enhanceable at the correct mods for the AT
3. Give Fast Healing 10% Sm, Le, Toxic resist

That wouldn't give it the same potential as some other sets, but it would HELP (not eliminate) the alpha strike issue, and that's all you really need to do.

 

[Glacier Peak]

The real conundrum I see with the Regeneration powerset across Brutes, Scrappers, Stalkers, and Sentinels is that unless there are added secondary effects from either -regen resistance, -recharge resistance, or a combination of scaling resists and/or defense (added through team mate buffs or IOs), it can't keep up with its contemporary powerset armors. Of course, this is my anecdotal opinion and I don't have robust testing to support my comments. I even tried building an Elec/Regen Sentinel with attacks slotted with Chance for HP (though most attacks are not very good PPM). Sentinel regeneration is the closest I've seen to a viable exercise in modern gameplay mechanics, but it is not solely based on its health regeneration capacity, its from the combined use of its Absorb and added +resists to all. Even with specific build modifications, getting around 65/HP per second is not what I would consider reasonable damage mitigation (for a Sentinel.... maybe, since it doesn't draw a ton of aggro, but the trade-offs in terms of damage output make it moot.). The reality for me is, unless Instant Healing is active, regeneration is not capable of mitigating damage on its own, it has to be combined with either secondary effects (IO set bonuses, team/self buffs, p2w, etc) or tactical gameplay like dropping the big attacks, retreating, re-engaging, etc.

 

A larger health pool would make regeneration work better, which is why Dull Pain is a great piece of the set. Integration covers a great deal of mez protection, minus terrorize, repel, etc. I even think Revive/Second Wind are great powers as they relate to the set, same goes with Moment of Glory. Instant Healing though... perhaps show it the same love as Granite Armor, where parts of that +regeneration are sprinkled on to Fast Healing and we can turn it back in to a toggle with high endurance cost again.

 

[arcane]

I will remind everyone that I supported adding -recharge/-regen resistance the entire time. I know some would like to think I think all buffs are evil.

[Glacier Peak]

6 minutes ago, arcane said:

I will remind everyone that I supported adding -recharge/-regen resistance the entire time. I know some would like to think I think all buffs are evil.

I am open to testing any powerset modifications that the developers are interested in making. Even if I personally don't agree with them, I think it is only fair to test it before I draw my conclusions.

 

Edit: Hell, make those beneficial effects offset with -resist or -def. Make regeneration stand on its own! If the only weakness is mitigating massive alpha strikes, that is easily up to a player to take in to consideration. Something to the effect of "I know this AV is going to hit hard, so I should drop a couple of attacks and then move out of melee range (or get behind cover for ranged attacks) while I get my health back."

 

I don't think it needs to be amazing with IOs or tailored to high-end maxed out builds. Look at doing those proposed changes/tests with its SO-only, then tailor the pros and cons to be balanced some how.

Edited January 28, 2022 by Glacier Peak

[Naraka]

Since we're all presenting our concluding arguments:

 

I'm not against buffing Regen but I'm against power creep. If buffs for Regen are needed, it should be aimed more at utility than raw effectiveness which is why I agree with those that suggest adding debuff res to the set. Most say to -regen and -rech but I'd go full hog and give the set a moderate amount of res to most debuffs to include -def, -ToHit, -move, ect. The set really doesn't need a bunch more sustain, it just needs the ability to rebound quickly no matter what is thrown at it.

 

Lastly, if Sent Regen is much better, good for them. Same goes for Elec melee for Stalker or Fiery Aura for Brute etc etc. It's a good thing some sets are different or better for different ATs. More replayability.

Edited January 28, 2022 by Naraka

[Bill Z Bubba]

2 hours ago, arcane said:

Cool? Ignore me “constantly giggling” at people with fewer powersets to play in the game because they falsely deem them unplayable? Your loss.

 

For the record I never caught myself jumping through a single hoop. Thank you for correcting me.

 

4 clicks all in heavy rotation. And that's if, like others posting about regen, you're not also leaning on one or more of the T5 pool powers.

 

23 minutes ago, arcane said:

Also note the exact standard you’re referring to is SO’s *at +0x1*. If Regen is having trouble at that level, you’re doing it wrong.

 

Council at +1/x2. Welcome to running away due to your recharge being floored. No recharge, no clicks, no mitigation, dead. Player "skill" don't enter into it.

 

What TF would you like to compare notes about, solo at max diff with no insps and no faceplants? Hell, you pick the primary as well. It won't matter. What are *your* regen's trapdoor and pylon times?

 

You're welcome. Glad to help.

[Bill Z Bubba]

50 minutes ago, Naraka said:

And if you retort by saying all armor sets have a tool to never lose a fight, I'd reply with, how often do you take *AND USE* those tier 9s of those other armor sets.

 

Counterpoint: The other sets are managing to survive withOUT those T9s rather than it being an absolutely necessary tool for survival. And then to add in T5 pool powers ... hell, you might as well be building a blaster.

[arcane]

11 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

4 clicks all in heavy rotation. And that's if, like others posting about regen, you're not also leaning on one or more of the T5 pool powers.

 

 

Council at +1/x2. Welcome to running away due to your recharge being floored. No recharge, no clicks, no mitigation, dead. Player "skill" don't enter into it.

 

What TF would you like to compare notes about, solo at max diff with no insps and no faceplants? Hell, you pick the primary as well. It won't matter. What are *your* regen's trapdoor and pylon times?

 

You're welcome. Glad to help.

1) Oh god CLICKS. You realize that’s not a critique of Regen but rather of most powersets in the game?

 

2) Again, I have supported every step of the way the addition of -recharge resistance for folks like you that aren’t IO’d with Ageless Radial.

 

3) I hadn’t thought of soloing a TF, but if you must have something from me, I will promise to kill some pylons at my very earliest convenience. Pylons will only measure the effectiveness of my attack chain (I believe it is Cross Punch -> Freezing Touch -> Gloom -> Ice Sword) though so no clue what that’s supposed to solve. 
 

I could certainly walk through a maxed out ITF solo for the mob killing. Idk how the Romi fight would go though. I have solo’d AV’s and stuff but it’s not something I do every day.

Edited January 28, 2022 by arcane

[Bill Z Bubba]

27 minutes ago, Troo said:

I love that Regeneration is reactive vs set it & forget it.

I enjoy recognizing what's happening and deciding what to do about it.

THIS IS THE BEST THING ABOUT IT and this has NOTHING to do with soft capping, DPS, or some other meta.

 

And again, I enjoy watching my peacebringer in action. Doesn't mean it's good at anything.

 

But I do completely agree: if the constant need to monitor and react is the appeal, great, add the recharge and regen debuff resistance and call it a day.

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 minute ago, arcane said:

1) Oh god CLICKS. You realize that’s not a critique of Regen but rather of most powersets in the game?

 

2) Again, I have supported every step of the way the addition of -recharge resistance for folks like you that aren’t IO’d with Ageless Radial.

 

3) I hadn’t thought of soloing a TF, but if you must have something from me, I will promise to kill some pylons at my very earliest convenience. Pylons will only measure the effectiveness of my attack chain though so no clue what that’s supposed to solve.

 

Yes, it matters to me how much DPS is lost or how much more time it takes me to wipe out a map, due to how much time I have to spend kiting around and constantly clicking on powers from my secondary and/or pools just to keep from eating dirt. I understand that it doesn't matter to you and that this is why you feel the set is fine as is.

[TheZag]

I prefer toggles and auto powers in my armor over clicks because of animation times getting in the way.  If i could click my heal from regen in the middle of a shadow maul, or any animation for that matter,  then the set would actually feel reactionary to me.  As it is now,  i have reacted that i need a heal and i get to hit the button 12 times while i wait for an animation to finish.  Letting regen clicks overlap with other abilities would go a long way to fixing the set in my opinion.

[Naraka]

14 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Counterpoint: The other sets are managing to survive withOUT those T9s rather than it being an absolutely necessary tool for survival. And then to add in T5 pool powers ... hell, you might as well be building a blaster.

Counter counter point: most find those tier 9s *detrimental* to their play and want them changed so they can use them.

[arcane]

12 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Yes, it matters to me how much DPS is lost or how much more time it takes me to wipe out a map, due to how much time I have to spend kiting around and constantly clicking on powers from my secondary and/or pools just to keep from eating dirt. I understand that it doesn't matter to you and that this is why you feel the set is fine as is.

Ok fair and I think we’re done here but... I just want to point out that it’s very hard to take these specialized personal requirements too seriously when, while they may work for most other armor sets, they would render tons of other non-armor sets trash as well. 
 

And once a philosophy starts to suggest that too many of the sets are trash, we have to start wondering if we’re defining “trash” poorly.

 

But we’ve been over this. I like to try sets and make every single one work, you like to min-max and reject everything that doesn’t meet your own high thresholds. You do you.

 

But its your own exceptional but arbitrary standards that render things unplayable. I have proven ofc that they are playable under more relaxed standards.

Edited January 28, 2022 by arcane

[Without_Pause]

I had a Claws/regen on live. I got it to 50 soling a lot and using level 25 common IOs. I felt like the build was fine as is. If there was an issue it was in the 40/45-50 level area. Long term I will say the clicking on the regen powers was annoying. Claws, outside of one power, doesn't really that that long of animations so it wasn't a huge problem. It was just annoying. I can't imagine using Regen with certain sets. There absolutely is a reason why Kat worked/works so well with it as the animations for Kat are all under 2 seconds. Regen would also due well with a mitigation heavy attack set.

[arcane]

11 minutes ago, Naraka said:

Counter counter point: most find those tier 9s *detrimental* to their play and want them changed so they can use them.

Yes, the main reason people use MoG more than other T9’s is because MoG doesn’t have a crash. And because it’s on a reliable short recharge timer. Other sets build under the premise that using their T9 would be a bad idea, and Regen and Scrapper/Stalker Ice Armor build under the premise that using their T9 is a fantastic idea.

Edited January 28, 2022 by arcane

[Bill Z Bubba]

6 minutes ago, arcane said:

I just want to point out that it’s very hard to take these specialized personal requirements too seriously

 

Exactly how I can't take claims of equitable mitigation when they're nothing more than "I like playing and building my armored character like a blaster" seriously. So you keep doin you as well.

[Bill Z Bubba]

3 minutes ago, arcane said:

Yes, the main reason people use MoG more than other T9’s is because MoG doesn’t have a crash. Other sets build under the premise that using their T9 would be a bsd idea, and Regen and Scrapper/Stalker Ice Armor build under the premise that using their T9 is a fantastic idea.

 

Still means you're waiting until 38 for a somewhat functional build and then it still underperforms. But again, you be you. I fully understand willfully playing gimped out characters for the fun of it. Swipe-only/Inv scrapper soloed to 50 comes to mind. As does my new melee-centric dark/sr sentinel that's currently running with gloom, air superiority, boxing and kick.

 

Hell, I have an sg-mate that runs a toggle-less inv tank.

 

Enjoy!

[arcane]

4 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

I fully understand willfully playing gimped out characters for the fun of it.

Oh bullshit, man, you’re still putting words in my mouth. In my experience the character is not gimped at all. You’re projecting your own ideas because apparently using click powers for survival means you’re a blaster.

 

You seem intent on claiming you know exactly how my character plays, because you keep insisting that something must be deeply wrong with it no matter what experience I report.

Edited January 28, 2022 by arcane

[Naraka]

9 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Still means you're waiting until 38 for a somewhat functional build and then it still underperforms. But again, you be you. I fully understand willfully playing gimped out characters for the fun of it. Swipe-only/Inv scrapper soloed to 50 comes to mind. As does my new melee-centric dark/sr sentinel that's currently running with gloom, air superiority, boxing and kick.

 

Hell, I have an sg-mate that runs a toggle-less inv tank.

 

Enjoy!

 

Did they change SR yet so you can get a decent amount of AoE def before level 35 on Scraps and Stalks? 

 

[EDIT] OMG, I just had flashbacks of leveling an /Elec Brute. Utter garbage... Until you finally get your heal with slots in it ...

Edited January 28, 2022 by Naraka

[Bill Z Bubba]

2 minutes ago, arcane said:

Oh bullshit, man, you’re still putting words in my mouth. In my experience the character is not gimped at all. You’re projecting your own ideas because apparently using click powers for survival means you’re a blaster.

 

Gimped out meaning actual mitigation provided. Playing like a blaster means hopping around the battlefield like a bunny on crack and/or leaning on the big buff T5 pools powers. I'm not putting words into your mouth. I'm doing nothing but taking what's being said by the pro-regen crowd and comparing it to other playstyles and builds.

 

Again, two completely different arguments getting crossed. One is: I like the set as is. This is an unarguable opinion. The other is: The set provides less mitigation than its counterparts. This is not an opinion.

[Bill Z Bubba]

2 minutes ago, Naraka said:

Did they change SR yet so you can get a decent amount of AoE def before level 35 on Scraps and Stalks? 

 

Nope. But you can get Lucky at 28 which stacks on any pool defense you might already have and completes your scaling damres.