Why do people say Poison needs help?

[arcane]

10 hours ago, Clave Dark 5 said:

I think it's the hit/miss quality of the power sin it, as others have said.  Pretty much every guide I've ever looked at for it (and builds) were "take these three or four powers, don't waste any time with the rest."  It can still play OK doing that, but who wants a power set with five wastes of time in it?

All 9 powers are good, I just happened to want more blasts or controls, tactics or sorcery, etc, moreso. None of them are wastes of time, they just aren’t so game changing that I can’t be flexible. 

 

Neurotoxic Breath is nice to fit in but again I have other priorities. Paralytic Poison I would take if/when I didn’t already have another S/T hold proc bombed like Dominate. The 3 ally targeted powers I sometimes use as heal/res mules, but there’s nothing wrong with them outside of the fact that I don’t want to spend time targeting allies personally (same thought process as o2 boost - good power, not a personal priority).

 

As for “who wants” a powerset that gives you broader freedom of power selection, clearly it’s already been established that I do as do others.

 

I will also add, in case you question me calling powers I don’t take “good”, that my Colds and Thermal have no Shields, and my Pain has no ally heals. I think my Empathy is my only character that actually took an ally targeted mez protection power, and that toon is overdue for a revamp. It’s just my style; minimizing absolute necessities in a powerset makes all your other choices easier. One of my Storms even skipped Hurricane.

Edited February 8, 2022 by arcane

[Ukase]

Six-six, who was the first responder in this post captured my position on poison quite well. 

I'm someone who's never played Poison before. I had read a thread somewhere in these forums where someone went to great lengths explaining the positive traits of this power set. So, I made one. I got to level 13 before I concluded that it simply doesn't put out enough DPS to suit me. 

So, you can put me in the camp of one who simply didn't enjoy it, so deleted the character in pursuit of something else. You could also make the case that I don't understand the set well enough to play it where it would be enjoyable. 

You may thank me now - I just read over my response and trimmed four paragraphs as unnecessary! 

[Bionic_Flea]

Playing to level 13 is just too low to make a reasoned decision on a power set.  I would say it takes until 50 and a full build, but at least until you have the last power in the set with a few slots.

[arcane]

9 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

Playing to level 13 is just too low to make a reasoned decision on a power set.  I would say it takes until 50 and a full build, but at least until you have the last power in the set with a few slots.

Quoted for truth

[Naraka]

Buff/debuff sets are the most varied sets in the game so their effectiveness is often going to lean on play style, build and preset combination.

 

Poison is a more active debuff set that can stack a lot of effects if the fight lasts that long but the beauty is going to shine when you pair the set... Just like the rest of the sets.

 

I went poison/dark defender because dark has a lean towards prolonged fights and safety. Throwing out a Blackstar opens up to them put down a trap or start dropping resistance or spreading out those slows/disorients. It's got some melee ranged powers to chain if power is going to be the goal. 

 

The only contention you run into with sets is if your expectation for every set is the same this ultimately playing the same.

[Hedgefund]

If you played Poison w/o VG*, you didn't play Poison.

 

*MMs excluded.

[Without_Pause]

3 hours ago, Bionic_Flea said:

Playing to level 13 is just too low to make a reasoned decision on a power set.  I would say it takes until 50 and a full build, but at least until you have the last power in the set with a few slots.

While level 13 is too low, I think a whole level 50 with a full build is a bit too much. I have deleted numerous builds in their 20s 30s. I even got one to 37, and I feel like the evaluation period is done. The build is actually really solid. It is I just don't like playing the one set at all.

Edited February 8, 2022 by Without_Pause

[arcane]

2 minutes ago, Without_Pause said:

While level 13 is too low, I think a whole level 50 with a full build is a bit too much. I have deleted numerous builds in their 20s 30s. I even got one to 37, and I feel like the evaluation period is done. The build is actually really solid. It is I just don't like playing the one set at all.

You definitely can’t comprehend its full potential south of 50+1, but you do you

[Pzn]

Moving venemous gas to a lower level would help the set perform way better earlier on.  The only thing I'd really like for the set is some form of mez protection to avoid having VG constantly detoggled before incarnates.  As it is, it's frustrating to play without clarion.  I would move poison trap to the t9 spot and give it an area buff similar to EMP arrow/Faraday.

[kiramon]

2 minutes ago, Pzn said:

Moving venemous gas to a lower level would help the set perform way better earlier on.  The only thing I'd really like for the set is some form of mez protection to avoid having VG constantly detoggled before incarnates.  As it is, it's frustrating to play without clarion.  I would move poison trap to the t9 spot and give it an area buff similar to EMP arrow/Faraday.

Careful, you might get told to pop an inspiration

[oedipus_tex]

To give the "glass half full" version of Poison, the fact that it packs so much of its debuff into Venomous Gas is fairly impressive. VG has -Resist, -Damage, -ToHit in one aura, where normally you'd need two powers to get that utility. The set wouldn't necessarily be better with a more traditional design, say where the -ToHit or -Damage was in Neurotoxic Breath instead of the aura. So, I can read the fact that so many powers are skippable as a potential plus.

 

On the flip side, the actual radius of Venomous Gas is on the low side, just 15 feet. 15ft is not completely atypical of buff set auras (its the radius of Choking Cloud and Entangling Aura and a few other powers). It's not unworkable, but notable if you play a lot of support.

 

IMO powers like VG, along with anything that doesn't damage enemies (Arctic Air, Choking Cloud, a few others) should suppress and not detoggle on mezz. Having them detoggle makes so much of the build journey about filling that specific hole. Top end builds will already have built for this, making it work better and more evenly would be a big lift. 

Edited February 8, 2022 by oedipus_tex

[Without_Pause]

22 minutes ago, arcane said:

You definitely can’t comprehend its full potential south of 50+1, but you do you

Why, does Total Focus with it's ungodly animation time and the wannabe combo system get fixed by then? I'm not dumping on the build because it's bad. I'm dumping on it because I prefer the blitzkrieg that is Claws. I've also lost count how many times using TF and ET with having me looking for a target worthy of that much damage and I often find a minion with 1/3 HP.

[Crasical]

Here's my issue:  Time's Juncture.

 

Venomous Gas provides (Defender Values)

-18.75% Damage
-12.5% ToHit

Versus Time's Juncture's

-25% Damage
-15.625% ToHit

 

Now, yes. that's deliberately a lopsided analysis: Venomous gas also does a -12.5% Base Defense debuff and a -25% Resistance debuff, which is *really nice*. That much can't be understated.
But time controllers get a lot of other mitigation and survival tools (Farsight), their aura is ten feet bigger, and Time's Juncture is available at level four.

 

Essentially I wish the safety net was a little wider for Venomous Gas, since it's asking you to jump into the fray like that, and the rest of the set is so bare of personal protection.

[arcane]

2 minutes ago, Crasical said:

Here's my issue:  Time's Juncture.

 

Venomous Gas provides (Defender Values)

-18.75% Damage
-12.5% ToHit

Versus Time's Juncture's

-25% Damage
-15.625% ToHit

 

Now, yes. that's deliberately a lopsided analysis: Venomous gas also does a -12.5% Base Defense debuff and a -25% Resistance debuff, which is *really nice*. That much can't be understated.
But time controllers get a lot of other mitigation and survival tools (Farsight), their aura is ten feet bigger, and Time's Juncture is available at level four.

 

Essentially I wish the safety net was a little wider for Venomous Gas, since it's asking you to jump into the fray like that, and the rest of the set is so bare of personal protection.

I’d be ok with a radius increase on VG I suppose but with an asterisk next to any mention of Time. Time is currently pretty dang overtuned/top tier at the moment and therefore should not be the standard bearer for balanced sets.

[arcane]

52 minutes ago, Without_Pause said:

Why, does Total Focus with it's ungodly animation time and the wannabe combo system get fixed by then? I'm not dumping on the build because it's bad. I'm dumping on it because I prefer the blitzkrieg that is Claws. I've also lost count how many times using TF and ET with having me looking for a target worthy of that much damage and I often find a minion with 1/3 HP.

More like whatever strengths and weaknesses your build has below 50+1 are highly suspect considering IO’s and Incarnates tend to completely wipe out weaknesses and massively amplify strengths.

 

It’s fine if you want to give up on a character. Doesn’t mean you have to pretend to understand what it’s ultimately capable of 🙂

[Crasical]

4 minutes ago, arcane said:

I’d be ok with a radius increase on VG I suppose but with an asterisk next to any mention of Time. Time is currently pretty dang overtuned/top tier at the moment and therefore should not be the standard bearer for balanced sets.

 

I used it as an example because
A) It's a close analogue, in being a PBAoE debuff aura, without having to factor in Weirdness like Hurricane's repel.
B) It's a set I'm also familiar with alongside Poison

Time is indeed pretty top-tier, but I think that's because it has a lot of very solid, very impactful powers; I wouldn't say Time's Juncture is what comes to mind when people think of Time being really strong. IMO, it's not enough of an outlier to disqualify it as a point of comparison, and that comparison is that it's got some measurable advantages in the mitigation department compared to Venomous Gas, something that is a gameplay-altering capstone that comes online 30 levels later.

[Uun]

I'd like to see an increase in the arc of Neurotoxic Breath. 30 degrees is pretty darn narrow for a power that does nothing but -rch/-spd. In comparison, Shiver has a 135 degree arc. 

[arcane]

31 minutes ago, Crasical said:

 

I used it as an example because
A) It's a close analogue, in being a PBAoE debuff aura, without having to factor in Weirdness like Hurricane's repel.
B) It's a set I'm also familiar with alongside Poison

Time is indeed pretty top-tier, but I think that's because it has a lot of very solid, very impactful powers; I wouldn't say Time's Juncture is what comes to mind when people think of Time being really strong. IMO, it's not enough of an outlier to disqualify it as a point of comparison, and that comparison is that it's got some measurable advantages in the mitigation department compared to Venomous Gas, something that is a gameplay-altering capstone that comes online 30 levels later.

About right. Farsight is pretty ridiculously OP tho and you DID allude to that too 🙂 

 

By no means will I ask to speak to the manager if you all insist I must have another 5’ of radius on my VG. My Poisons feel lit as is, but it’ll do.

[arcane]

1 hour ago, kiramon said:

Careful, you might get told to pop an inspiration

I gave him a pass on that one because his other posts generally suggest knowing his way about the game 🙂

 

I am willing to assume this lapse in judgement resulted from a minor stroke, no fault of his own, and move on.

 

As for you, go pop an inspiration 😄

Edited February 8, 2022 by arcane

[Without_Pause]

1 hour ago, arcane said:

More like whatever strengths and weaknesses your build has below 50+1 are highly suspect considering IO’s and Incarnates tend to completely wipe out weaknesses and massively amplify strengths.

 

It’s fine if you want to give up on a character. Doesn’t mean you have to pretend to understand what it’s ultimately capable of 🙂

I'm positive of its S tier nature. I've done enough IOed out builds and seen the damage it does do. The biggest change would be in recharge. I just don't like the playstyle of it and no IOs fix that.

[ForeverLaxx]

4 hours ago, arcane said:

More like whatever strengths and weaknesses your build has below 50+1 are highly suspect considering IO’s and Incarnates tend to completely wipe out weaknesses and massively amplify strengths.

 

It’s fine if you want to give up on a character. Doesn’t mean you have to pretend to understand what it’s ultimately capable of 🙂

I'm of the opinion that a set needs to be evaluated under Generic IOs/SOs. Level Shifts, Incarnates, and maxed out Set Bonuses completely warp the game so heavily in the player's favor that you'd be hard pressed to fail with even an objectively bad build, like a Petless Empathy MM. At that point, your Incarnate powers and Set Bonuses are just playing the game for you.

 

It doesn't matter to most players how "strong" something is when they've shoved a million Super Mario Invincible Stars down its throat to no longer care about its weaknesses. What usually matters to the average player is how the set feels and the playstyle of that set, and you get a feel for that while leveling it, not by PL'ing to the level cap and dropping 5 billion influence in its lap. If you want to play that way, more power to you, but don't pretend that it's really giving you any fair evaluation of a set. I will never take a "cap your level and finish your build before you judge" recommendation seriously.

 

Before the pitchforks are raised, I do like Poison. I'm not necessarily asking for it to be changed. It would be nice if the shift from the set encouraging you to keep your distance at the start didn't make a sudden, and frankly powerfully dramatic shift, right at the end. Not many people are prepared for that kind of whiplash and they might not even be taking Venomous Gas at all for that reason alone. I know the set was adapted from the MM version but it might need a power order pass.

Edited February 9, 2022 by ForeverLaxx

[ScarySai]

Because while it may have four insanely good powers to carry the set, they aren't perfect. It's also a pain to solo before VG. The set isn't as safe as cold, and it really should be the debuff king considering the playstyle.

 

Vg shouldn't toggle off when mezzed and should have a larger radius, full stop. Splashes should be bigger and neuro breath should do literally anything useful.

 

Plus, if/when procs get nerfed, I'd much rather have the /traps version of poison trap since it's way better without procs carrying this one.

Edited February 9, 2022 by ScarySai

[Wavicle]

6 hours ago, ForeverLaxx said:

It would be nice if the shift from the set encouraging you to keep your distance at the start didn't make a sudden, and frankly powerfully dramatic shift, right at the end.

 

I don't see it this way.

 

Right from the start the set encourages you to group enemies tightly which means being up close when solo. At 26, when you get Poison Trap, you start being encouraged to run into melee to toe bomb hold groups. So a few levels later adding VG shouldn't be that much of a departure.

In addition, if you do team a lot, you are already encouraged to group up for buffs and heals. Many ranged players stand too far back most of the time. Sure, avoiding aoes is important, but being buffed is important too.

[Major_Decoy]

That is not what I learned from leveling my defender. I see how those lessons are possible, but soloing I learned to kite a bit, Noxious Breath made kiting easier and if they're running after you, they're more likely to be in that cone. Poison Trap, when I used it, I'd put it closer to the enemy and move away from it, so that the enemies would still be at range when it hit. I only today learned that it had a 100% chance for a mag 3 hold. When I read the text, all of it says "chance to hold" so I thought it was like choking cloud or entangling aura. Maybe I'll respec back into Paralyzing Poison.

[MoonSheep]

On 2/7/2022 at 10:33 AM, Parabola said:

Poison is a very weird set in my eyes. Lopsided and back to front. Most of its functionality comes in just four powers and most of the rest are totally skippable. And it gives its hard target debuffs first (for all those av fights we have at low levels...), but it makes you wait all the way to the tier 9 for its general mob debuff. No set should have that number of skippable powers or be that backloaded imo.

 

you make a great point - venomous gas would be a fantastic level 12 power and would make a huge difference for low level gameplay