Issue 27 Page 4 - The End of Procs

[Apparition]

Just now, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Why? They'll do even more damage and just cut the mitigation by 25%.

 

 

But will it still be softcapped?

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 minute ago, Apparition said:

But will it still be softcapped?

 

Won't you still build for it regardless? But 53+.75 = 39.75. Guess you'll have to change the build a bit to get that extra 5.25% defense while dishing out 3 times the damage.

[Luminara]

41 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Or to put it another way, here's my shield/nrg tank as she is on live:

 

 

And here she is with as many damage procs as I can get in BS, TF, ET and Gloom.

 

 

Still softcapped, some loss of resists and a bit less HP.

 

Global recharge, global Accuracy/ToHit, movement speeds and stats without Hybrid and Destiny?

 

Also, that recovery rate in comparison to the endurance usage is abysmal.  Turn off Sprint, you numpty.

[Bill Z Bubba]

4 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

Global recharge, global Accuracy/ToHit, movement speeds and stats without Hybrid and Destiny?

 

Also, that recovery rate in comparison to the endurance usage is abysmal.  Turn off Sprint, you numpty.

 

Made me look. Turned off everything. Live build. Oh yea... freakin musculature buffing defense.

 

[Luminara]

6 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Made me look. Turned off everything. Live build. Oh yea... freakin musculature buffing defense.

 

 

I AIN'T SEEIN' NO GLOBAL RECHARGE, ACCURACY/TOHIT OR MOVEMENT SPEED COMPARISONS BETWEEN THOSE TWO BUILDS, BUBBLES!

 

You're on the clock.  Let's go.  😛

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 minute ago, Luminara said:

I AIN'T SEEIN' NO GLOBAL RECHARGE, ACCURACY/TOHIT OR MOVEMENT SPEED COMPARISONS BETWEEN THOSE TWO BUILDS, BUBBLES!

 

You're on the clock.  Let's go.  😛

 

Damnit, I didn't save it... one sec

[MTeague]

I think procs are actually perfectly fine, given that going nuts with them means forsaking quite a few set bonuses. 

And they do open up some damage-dealing options for powers or even whole powersets that would otherwise be.... lackluster.

 

Now, what I DO think is massively overtuned.... and quite possibly may deserve some downscaling......  <looks around nervously, pops Personal Force Field>.... is Global Recharge.

[Bill Z Bubba]

Live build:

 

 

Proc build:

 

 

This is easier. Live:

Spoiler

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Proc. I have absolutely no idea how this would play out or what attack chain would come of it or any of that. Just making comparisons.

 

Spoiler

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Edited February 22, 2022 by Bill Z Bubba

[Luminara]

1 minute ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Live build:

 

 

Proc build:

 

 

Not too shabby.  You manage to hold on to enough global +Recharge to keep the impact minimal.  One Force Feedback +Recharge, I'd guess, since my Shield/Elec tanker has 140% global +Recharge and the slotting differences between EM and Elec aren't sufficiently unique to account for that extra 100% otherwise.  Could do with more Accuracy/ToHit in both cases.

 

You move like a possum, though.  I have one good lung and I can catch a possum.  That Run Speed, that's like, what, six years to run from one spawn to the next, taking reverse time dilation into account?

 

[Glacier Peak]

Procs add a lot of flexibility and options to builds at the cost of moving the game away from role based gameplay decisions that rely on team work mechanics. 

 

So some discussion - why recruit Scrappers, Brutes, Sentinels, or Stalkers to the team when Blasters have a higher ranged damage modifier that outpaces melee attacks and can be damage proc'd even farther to destroy enemies faster than any other AT? What purpose would the Tank serve if there aren't any mobs to taunt? What about crowd control? Or support? Or HEATs/VEATs? 

 

On the other hand, the trade offs for proc builds is the initial investment in time and influence, then the build really only performs its one role very well (outputting damage).

[Shred Monkey]

1 hour ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

But do they? Really? Yea, they lose some set bonuses, so some mitigation loss that's probably completely covered by Rune/Demonic/Melee Core if even remotely necessary, loss of slotting is covered by FocAcc or Tactics and Ageless...

 

I'd have to argue that the damage gains greatly outweigh the loss in mitigation.

 

But if you're running melee core, you're not running assault core (sacrificing damage).  If you're running ageless, you're not running rebirth, or barrier (sacrificing team survivability).  If you're not slotting any recharge in your attacks, you're losing a lot of really good set bonuses.

 

I tend to agree that damage trumps outweighs mitigation... which is why I choose to run proc builds.  But that's *my* choice.  I'd hate for proc builds to be nerf'd so that I no longer have a the option to go for more damage by sacrificing the buffs and mitigation provided by those full attack sets.

 

You know, talking about this reminds me that Ageless is probably a little overpowered.  

 

[KaizenSoze]

There is another trade off that using lots of procs I don't see mentioned a lot.

 

Endurance, the more procs the higher the endurance cost of the power.

 

This can limit the amount of procs you use. My VEATs have to limit procs for two reasons and set bonus and endurance. Widows are already end hungry, it can become unmanageable with too many procs.

 

My proc'ed out Trick Arrow/Dual Pistols Defender requires Ageless for high performance, because she burns end pretty badly.

[Gobbledigook]

I don't see a problem with them. As said you lose set bonuses using them, Tanker probably isn't the best example with it's naturally high resists and the ATO, which i presume is shown in the build above? Perhaps show other examples such as a Scrapper.

 

At least they offer good build diversity rather than everyone just slotting the same sets. A procced out tanker will never reach procced out scrapper dps limits nor will a scrapper reach tanker survival limits. Scrappers tend to be at least twice as fast on a Pylon than a Tanker but Tankers are more survivable, seems about right to me.

 

Tweaking them is ok but a flat out 75% nerf as you suggested @Bill Z Bubba is just wrong lol, they wouldn't be used at all unless for set bonuses. If you refuse to use them then that is your choice. Content is being made that does need them and not the older content that was mostly made before procs were even introduced or so easily available as they are now.

Edited February 22, 2022 by Gobbledegook

[Bill Z Bubba]

43 minutes ago, Luminara said:

You move like a possum, though.  I have one good lung and I can catch a possum.  That Run Speed, that's like, what, six years to run from one spawn to the next, taking reverse time dilation into account?

 

I hit H for fly between spawns and shield charge is nice.

[Luminara]

57 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

I hit H for fly between spawns and shield charge is nice.

 

Huh.  Never seen a flying turtle before.

 

😁

[Snarky]

The Devs spent a ton of time and effort on a project.  They got feedback.  They had it on Beta

 

then a couple dozen players through a bitch fit from hell like Bridezilla and the Devs junked it.  
 

that was the Super Strength fix to get rid of the Rage crash.  But the vocal minority want to be able to double stack rage and so the rest of us are stuck with manic depressive hulk clones.  Sigh….i stopped running the set, even though i mained it for years on live

 

what i am trying to say is forget the whole topic of nerfing procs.   
 

a few vocal babies are already strapping on their diapers and getting pacifiers ready to throw across the room.  They will keep their procs 

Edited February 22, 2022 by Snarky

[lemming]

1 hour ago, Luminara said:

 

Huh.  Never seen a flying turtle before.

 

😁

Gamera! Gamera is really neat! Gamera is filled with meat!

[Myrmidon]

9 hours ago, Major_Decoy said:

I've decided to make the five set bonus on most of the purple sets +10% recharge and 100% chance of magnitude 47 knockback. The proc has a 97% chance of turning that knockback into knockdown.

Now, that’s really going to upset the five or six people that like Knockback.

 

Make it so.

[Chrono-Bot]

This is too much math. I'm going shopping.

[tidge]

7 hours ago, Luminara said:

Huh.  Never seen a flying turtle before.

 

 

I like %damage procs as well. Many DPS types don't need them; on the other hand I often feel like extra %damage from procs are the only things that make it possible for certain low-DPS AT to complete missions within the same order-of-magnitude (with respect to time) as high DPS AT. I don't want to go back to the era when a non-DPS character couldn't turn up the number of enemies on a map without committing to long solo map times... and I am NOT thinking about AE maps.

[Luminara]

6 hours ago, lemming said:

Gamera! Gamera is really neat! Gamera is filled with meat!

 

I expected a picture of Bill to be significantly more grizzled... and less anus-rockety.  Guess those Texan chilis took their toll.

[Vulpoid]

14 hours ago, Bionic_Flea said:

John Procter said, "More weight."

It was Giles Corey. But I am a Massachusetts English teacher, so I am not proud of myself.

[Luminara]

39 minutes ago, tidge said:

I like %damage procs as well. Many DPS types don't need them; on the other hand I often feel like extra %damage from procs are the only things that make it possible for certain low-DPS AT to complete missions within the same order-of-magnitude (with respect to time) as high DPS AT. I don't want to go back to the era when a non-DPS character couldn't turn up the number of enemies on a map without committing to long solo map times... and I am NOT thinking about AE maps.

 

I completely and wholeheartedly agree.  Damage-dealer archetypes are still dealing more damage, and procs don't benefit from inherents, such as Containment, Scourge or Vigilance, nor are they guaranteed to trigger, despite the misinformation happily thrown around by people who either: require real-life validation from pretendy-fun accomplishments in a video game ("my procs are absolutely reliable and always trigger, i'm awesome!"); or who are determined to see damage procs nerfed ("your procs are absolutely reliable and always trigger, you're awful!").  They are improved by -Res, but applying -Res requires additional time and the characters leveraging procs in that manner aren't winning any races, they're simply not running as far behind as they would be without procs.

 

A defender can sometimes deal almost as much damage as a lazy blaster, after a lengthy set-up and dependent on randomized occurrence, and some people believe we just have to nerf damage procs into the ground to stop that, so those lazy blasters don't lie awake at night, agonizing over imaginary dick measurements.  Because, of course, it makes perfect sense to impose massive restrictions on everyone just to prevent a few peoples' fragile egos from being lightly bruised.  The emotional equivalent of a paper cut is the end of the fucking world these days, after all.

 

Some powers can be slotted as "proc bombs", and the proposed solution by those same people is to grind damage procs into dust, rather than address the powers themselves to make them perform less like outliers, because kicking entire archetypes in the balls is a better solution than bringing individual builds into line, and even that is predicated on the presumption that these people can reasonably prove that there is a problem... which, to date, no-one has done.  The attempts to do so have been shown to be deliberate efforts to misrepresent the entirety of the situation, with facts swept under the rug, cherry-picked datum held up and loudly proclaimed as the end-all and be-all of evidence... the epitome of scientific misconduct, which would have those people permanently barred from publication if they tried to submit the same "research" in a respected scientific journal.

 

It's all nonsense.

[Bionic_Flea]

1 hour ago, Vulpoid said:

It was Giles Corey. But I am a Massachusetts English teacher, so I am not proud of myself.

That's when I read the Crucible.  Or maybe it was junior high.  1979ish.

[Troo]

16 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

And here she is with as many damage procs as I can get in BS, TF, ET and Gloom.

 

Valid point.

Is that as intended or broken? I think arguments could be made for both sides (as we've seen).