PvP Broken? Let us count the ways..

[Troo]

A common complaint is going to PvP zones to grab badges, temp powers, or to do missions.

 

In my mind this has been exasperated by the deviation of PvP from the rest of the game.

 

There is not one or two simple changes. There is a complicated hodgepodge of differences that may be unexpected to the uninitiated.

• "Almost any effect of any power may be different between PvP and PvE"
• "Powers calculate damage based on their activation time, instead of their recharge."
  • Flurry and Propel, deal two to three times their PvE damage
  • AoE powers generally do far less damage than single-target ones
  • Lower activation time powers get a slight bonus to damage, due to chaining low damage powers being difficult in PvP
  • Longer recharge time powers also get a slight damage bonus, so higher level powers with long recharge times deal extra damage.
  • Damage has been adjusted for all ATs, reducing the damage gap between each AT.

 

Is there something specific that is broken in PvP for you?

 

[EmperorSteele]

Even if we made PvP work exactly like PvE, those who are only going to PvP zones for temps or badges would still face a huge disadvantage because nothing else in the game gets you ready to face super speedy/jumping jousters who can one-shot you with a procc'd-out hold while hidden! 😃

[Troo]

16 minutes ago, EmperorSteele said:

Even if we made PvP work exactly like PvE, those who are only going to PvP zones for temps or badges would still face a huge disadvantage because nothing else in the game gets you ready to face super speedy/jumping jousters who can one-shot you with a procc'd-out hold while hidden! 😃

 

I think some of the differences are beneficial, but at this point they could be a barrier to play in those zones. (that's all I'm saying)

 

 

[Glacier Peak]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is this just a rant thread? 🤔 

 

If not, there is a bug thread on these forums if you believe something is not working correctly. You can also put a support ticket together. And it should go without saying, but there is a Feedback and Suggestion sub forum as well. 

[The_Warpact]

You are not looking at the root of the issue...its the players.

When you get people who have anxiety, rage quit, fearful, etc when faced with actually coming up against another person in a gaming event you will get the exact opposite effect.

 

PVP has its issues game wise, but, the root is the people. I find it rather humorous that superheroes and supervillains fight, as long as it's not another person. 

4 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is this just a rant thread? 🤔 

 

If not, there is a bug thread on these forums if you believe something is not working correctly. You can also put a support ticket together. And it should go without saying, but there is a Feedback and Suggestion sub forum as well. 

 

I don't think it's a rant unless I missed something, I prefer to think of it as a question on why or what your opinion is the problem that has such a low population of pvp when mostly every game out there its centric to the game both console and pc.

[Troo]

15 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is this just a rant thread?

 

Dear forum police.. do you have a PvP related item that you feel could be improved or is out of whack?

 

(rather than hijack someone else's thread, creating a stand alone topic here seemed appropriate)

 

Edited March 21, 2022 by Troo
clarification

[Glacier Peak]

Just now, The_Warpact said:

You are not looking at the root of the issue...its the players.

When you get people who have anxiety, rage quit, fearful, etc when faced with actually coming up against another person in a gaming event you will get the exact opposite effect.

 

PVP has its issues game wise, but, the root is the people. I find it rather humorous that superheroes and supervillains fight, as long as it's not another person. 

 

I don't think it's a rant unless I missed something, I prefer to think of it as a question on why or what your opinion is the problem that has such a low population of pvp when mostly every game out there its centric to the game both console and pc.

Fair enough. I saw the other PvP thread that Troo created in the General Discussion sub forum and figured it was a continuation of either a rant or a suggestion. 

[PeregrineFalcon]

Ok, so I don't PvP in CoH. I'm not someone who never PvPs or who hates PvPers. I have PvP'd a LOT in SWTOR and GW2. I don't PvP in CoH because CoH PvP sucks.

 

While game developers love being able to separate PvE and PvP powers/abilities, it's always a bad idea. People get used to playing their character a certain way. You'll always have to learn play differently in PvP, no matter which game you're playing.

 

So not only do people trying out PvP have to learn to play differently, but they also have to learn what their powers actually do in this new game-mode. That just raises the bar for entry, makes the learning curve that much steeper, and basically makes PvP and PvE into completely different games.

 

This just makes it that much harder to learn how to PvP. It makes people upset because the character that like playing now plays like a completely different character. And it frustrates and angers people when they get knocked/perma-stunned/one-shotted and they can't even figure out why it happened, because that never happens in the other game mode.

 

And the name-calling and tea-bagging doesn't help. And don't give me any of that "grow a thicker skin" nonsense. How about YOU learn to speak to me online the same way you'd talk to me in person. Otherwise don't complain about the PvP zones being empty. YOU literally caused that yourself.

[The_Warpact]

7 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Ok, so I don't PvP in CoH. I'm not someone who never PvPs or who hates PvPers. I have PvP'd a LOT in SWTOR and GW2. I don't PvP in CoH because CoH PvP sucks.

 

While game developers love being able to separate PvE and PvP powers/abilities, it's always a bad idea. People get used to playing their character a certain way. You'll always have to learn play differently in PvP, no matter which game you're playing.

 

So not only do people trying out PvP have to learn to play differently, but they also have to learn what their powers actually do in this new game-mode. That just raises the bar for entry, makes the learning curve that much steeper, and basically makes PvP and PvE into completely different games.

 

This just makes it that much harder to learn how to PvP. It makes people upset because the character that like playing now plays like a completely different character. And it frustrates and angers people when they get knocked/perma-stunned/one-shotted and they can't even figure out why it happened, because that never happens in the other game mode.

 

And the name-calling and tea-bagging doesn't help. And don't give me any of that "grow a thicker skin" nonsense. How about YOU learn to speak to me online the same way you'd talk to me in person. Otherwise don't complain about the PvP zones being empty. YOU literally caused that yourself.

That is a fair point indeed, I don't pvp in its current form it sucks. I used to base raid with my VG back on live then the changes came and well...yeah that was the end.

 

I had not considered the new builds, all the sh!t to learn, etc. Plus, the sh!t talking yeah thats always fun....

 

 

[Bionic_Flea]

So we're different factions

and we're different speeds.

And different ATs have different HPs.

It's obvious you'll own me though I've done nothing wrong.

I only want this badge so what could I have done?

 

 

[PeregrineFalcon]

6 minutes ago, The_Warpact said:

I had not considered the new builds, all the sh!t to learn, etc. Plus, the sh!t talking yeah thats always fun....

Now I'm with you in that I don't understand getting anxious or fearful over something that's happening on a screen, and for much the same reason.

 

However, the smack talk used to really infuriate me when I was younger. Now I just get mildly annoyed and roll my eyes. But it's still annoying. Now imagine stacking all of that on top of the self-reported anxiety attacks and other various social and mental health issues that a lot of people on this forum (this is according to their own posts Mr. Moderator) claim to have and I'm sure that you can see how unlikely it is that many people will ever look forward to entering a PvP zone in CoH.

[Yomo Kimyata]

I'm always intrigued when people try to exhort others to start PvPing.  It feels like I'm walking past a dude with a three-card monte table who is saying, "C'mon, you can't pick a simple card?"

 

I payed around with it a bit on Live and didn't enjoy it then.  Too much ganking and exploiting stuff to pad stats back then.  I haven't found a compelling argument to start doing it now  where I would feel hey this is fun no matter if I win or lose.  I suspect the smack talk and the specialized builds contributes to that.  Dunno.  But regardless, without a compelling argument, I've got more enjoyable things to spend my time on!

[Troo]

2 hours ago, The_Warpact said:

I used to base raid

 

I do miss base raids

 

7 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

Too much ganking and exploiting stuff to pad stats back then.  I haven't found a compelling argument to start doing it now  where I would feel hey this is fun no matter if I win or lose.

 

If only there was a way to make it less specialized and fun win or lose.

 

 

Edited March 22, 2022 by Troo

[battlewraith]

Pvp in this game is pretty much deathmatch. The simple objective is to kill other players, which means the most important aspect of the engagement is damage spam. And this leads to a situation where skill in an encounter boils down to finding and locking on to a target with the rest of the team, firing simultaneously, and then cycling on to the next target as quickly as possible while evading any incoming spike launched at you. It's like having several people hammering away at the same whack-a-mole table. There's teamwork and coordination in pve but it's nothing like this sort of activity.

 

What this game needed was some sort of goal oriented pvp. The closest it got was base raids which didn't last very long and wasn't a great example of the idea.

 

I played Battleborn while it was around and there was a popular pvp mode called Incursion. Something like this is what I feel coh needed:

 

There were 2 teams of 5. Each team had a base on one side of the map with a large shielded sentinel robot. At the start of the match, the bases would start manufacturing little minion robots. Left to their own devices, these robots would cross to the other team's base and attack the enemy sentinel. These robots did a lot more damage to the sentinel robot's shields than player attacks.

 

Players would level up during the match by getting xp from destroying enemy players and minion bots. They could also fight for shards that appeared in order to buy turrets, as well as freeing monster npcs that could help taking down the enemy sentinel. The match was over when a sentinel was destroyed or the match timer ran out. If the time ran out, then the game scored your team's overall performance--how many minions did you kill, how many players did you defeat, how many things did you build, etc. Not just one metric.

 

I think a scenario like that would've been awesome for coh, different powersets and ATs would've offered great strategic variety to the match. And it would've appealed to a wider variety of players and playstyles.

[Greycat]

i13 pretty solidly broke PVP and, as I recall, the interest of PVPers with a serious rework of everything (and not in good ways.) Yes, a lot got dialed back a bit at a time, but the damage was done.

 

Personally, I'd throw IOs in as something else breaking it, as well. Or, rather, breaking its approachability. By which I mean - well, let me give you a real-game-world example from a few months ago.

Went into Bloody Bay. I had a ... late-teens-ish, maybe early-20s-ish Brute. As much as she had a "build," it was a PVE build. Far from anything special. Ran into 1-2 others who were messing around fighting. Eventually there were four of us, either going one on one, two on two, free for all, didn't matter. We were just fighting, winning, losing, "Ha, thought I had you there" and "Nice move" ing... until someone brought in a PVP build that nobody could touch.  I suppose they "won," but it made it pointless for anyone else to try. (Granted, we did for the hell of it, but it was immediately apparent that they were not going to be beaten even solo vs the rest of us.)

 

To me, that's what both IO builds and i13 did to PVP. Early on? I loved hopping into a zone and PVPing. Didn't always win - I'd be surprised if I was at 50% - but I could take a lot of things in and at least do something without a specialized "build." I had an energy/energy brute that got known for slotting stuns (and getting cussed out as a stalker, which I found funny... almost as funny as someone trying for a good several minutes straight to TP Foe her, something energy had protection against.)

 

Yes, some ATs - or not even ATs, but powerset combos - were worse, or *much* worse, than others, but the solution to that was simple... *team with someone.*  (Another example, my Corrupter, another Corr and a Dom held Siren's Call for a good half hour until we were simply overwhelmed by numbers... like a team and a half finally hitting us all at once. We just stayed tight, concentrated and prioritized targets - and it didn't hurt they were coming in 1-2 at a time for a while.)

 

(One other thing I'll call "broken," at least for the two lower zones, is the +5 levels worth of powers when exemping. It's already bad enough in BB that you have the level 15-25 range and the differences in power and slotting that brings up without allowing up to level 30 powers... and Siren's opens up primary powerset T9s with that now, and almost a complete secondary, giving powers up to 35. Made it less fun. Part of why I skipped Warburg so much was it just being T9-offs.)

 

Last, despite PVP being planned from the beginning, the way the game's set up just doesn't really lend itself to balance... at all. Maybe the way it was in alpha (freeform, picking powers with origin determining how many/how much it could be boosted/etc) would have worked, but - well, in many other games, you have "the tank," "the DPS," "the healer," maybe "the pet class." They *tend* to be fairly similar to others of their class, so you can have an easier time balancing it. COH? A Fire/Kin is not an Ill/Storm is not an Earth/FF is not an Ice/Rad is not a Mind/Emp is not... and that's before getting into builds. And then you have *every other* AT with all of *their* combinations to consider. PVP "balance" or "making things fair" kind of has to boil down to "bring a team..." - and even then, well, team composition can either even things out or break things even worse (see... almost anything Repeat Offenders did.)

 

... boiling it down to the original question? I'd say what's broken most is "approachability."

[Troo]

24 minutes ago, Greycat said:

I'd say what's broken most is "approachability."

 

+1

 

anything good in the i13 pvp changes or was it all bad?

 

i13 PVP Revamp (excerpt from: https://archive.paragonwiki.com/wiki/Patch_Notes/2008-12-02)

PvP combat has been completely revamped in this issue, in an attempt to make it more fun for all ATs and builds. Please note that these changes only take effect in PvP situations; these changes have no effect on PvE. Here are a summary of the major changes:

1. The damage of all attacks has been refigured. Basically, the longer the activation/animation time of an attack power, the more damage the power is going to do. There are adjustments for recharge time and Endurance cost, but the actual time the power takes up in an attack chain is the primary consideration.
2. In general, the base damage of all Archetypes has been increased in PvP zones and Arenas. The Containment bonus for Controllers in PvP has been reduced because of their higher base damage.
3. Being hit by an attack triggers movement suppression, just as making an attack does. Suppression for being hit by an attack is always the same duration. Any power with a negative impact on the target (including all debuff powers) is considered an attack.
4. Note that Teleport powers are completely disabled when suppressed.
5. Healing powers also trigger suppression.
6. The greater the base range of an attack, the longer the suppression for the attacker.
7. Teleport Foe and related powers in Gravity Control and Warshade powersets now grant 3/4 of a second "untouchable" flag on the target.
8. Resistance and defense powers have greater diminishing returns when stacked than in PvE, and lower caps.
9. Healing powers suffer from diminishing returns when several are used in a short period of time.
10. All Archetypes (except Tankers and Masterminds) have some default resistances to all attacks in PVP.
11. Unlike in PvE, defensive toggles do not suppress when you are held/stunned. This means that not only do the toggles not drop, they continue to grant defenses while the player is held/stunned.
12. Melee classes gain extra resistances to all debuffs and to movement slows. These bonuses are linked to the power in each set that gives status protection (Unyielding Stance, Wet Ice, Plasma Shield, etc.).
13. "Buffing" Archetypes (Defenders, Controllers, Corruptors, Dominators and Masterminds) have less ability to benefit from all buffing powers than other ATs (the powers have less effect on them, and their caps are lower).
14. Melee ATs gain more benefit from buffing powers than other Archetypes (the powers have greater effect on them, and their caps are higher).
15. Defeating enemies in PvP can award inf, Inspirations, and rarely Salvage, but no XP.
16. In general, there is no such thing as Status Protection in PvP, only Resistance. The exception is Knockback protection, since Knockback is a binary effect. The base durations of status effects are greatly reduced in PvP (generally 4 seconds for Controllers and Dominators, 2 seconds for all other Archetypes).

[Reiraku]

i13 killed PvP. During beta, a huge number of the PvP community tested the changes and pointed out everything busted/bad with them. People who weren't into PvP looked at the patch notes and said, "yeah, that looks great!" and never bothered to PvP anyways. Then when the devs decided to keep the changes rather than rework them, the majority of PvPers left and no one came to replace them. 

 

Ultimately, you can't fix the core of the problem,  which is people (as was previously stated). Some people simply don't want to, and this game doesn't give them a reason to. There's little variety, unwieldy systems, and everyone who is playing already has cemented their opinion of it.

[The_Warpact]

4 hours ago, Reiraku said:

i13 killed PvP. 

This, it killed it for my VG, we went from arena, zone, and base raids to zip.

Hell, I used my Bots/FF MM to pvp. I couldn't kill anyone but I could choke up a corridor in a base or for zone everyone wanted to pop the big bubble which left my teammates to destroy or takedown whatever was in the zone objectives. 

Yeah, we weren't perfect but we had fun, and for the people who tried ruining it for us all we stayed away from them and suddenly they didn't have anyone to play against which in turn ruined it for them. 

For everything the devs did they did do alot of stuff that p!sses me off to this day and why I wasn't around when Live shuttered. 

 

For the naysayers, if you were on a team like we had I bet you would have had fun and actual enjoyed yourself. A bad experience doesn't define the whole of it. 

[Marbing]

6 hours ago, Greycat said:

i13 pretty solidly broke PVP and, as I recall, the interest of PVPers with a serious rework of everything (and not in good ways.)

This. I used to PvP a lot, then i13 and I haven’t touched it much sense. PvP is now just broken. 
 

I know current PvPers disagree and they will band together and say that they want things to stay the same. But, I will never agree with them. PvP pre i13 > than PVP now.

[Crysis]

13 hours ago, Troo said:

A common complaint is going to PvP zones to grab badges, temp powers, or to do missions.

 

In my mind this has been exasperated by the deviation of PvP from the rest of the game.

 

There is not one or two simple changes. There is a complicated hodgepodge of differences that may be unexpected to the uninitiated.

• "Almost any effect of any power may be different between PvP and PvE"
• "Powers calculate damage based on their activation time, instead of their recharge."
  • Flurry and Propel, deal two to three times their PvE damage
  • AoE powers generally do far less damage than single-target ones
  • Lower activation time powers get a slight bonus to damage, due to chaining low damage powers being difficult in PvP
  • Longer recharge time powers also get a slight damage bonus, so higher level powers with long recharge times deal extra damage.
  • Damage has been adjusted for all ATs, reducing the damage gap between each AT.

 

Is there something specific that is broken in PvP for you?

 

 

Depending on your perspective....PvE is what's "broken," rather than PVP.

 

The fundamental issue with PvP in this game was trying to shoehorn it into a casual PVE game and keep the two modes at some degree of parity from a powers perspective.  I mean, at least in theory, a Controller should reign supreme in PVP being able to lock down just about any other AT quickly because that was their role in the PVE world.  But the melee types were at a disadvantage in PVP if this could happen (well, every AT would be but melee in particular) because they never really had to deal with status effects in PVE and couldn't do anything to defend themselves outside of melee distance.  

 

Zone PVP at its height during Live had all sorts of balance issues, but the "fixes" that came along just mucked it up worse than it was.   But at its height, I -only- did Zone and Arena PVP and only ventured into PVE for powerfarming new PVP alts.  In fact, I'd argue the rise of farming AE correlated highly to PVP players grinding out alts and purples rather than for profit.  PVP was an influence sink back then.  And now, except for a select number of players who are die-hards, its all but forgotten.

 

PVE is what broke PVP.

[Marine X]

Of all the PVP Zones, the one I actually enjoyed the " Mechanics " of was Recluses Victory when it was new, and you actually had teams trying to take control. Still do Bloody Bay for Shivans once in a while but have yet to encounter a Villain while there. I do recall, on Live, experiencing Confuse in Warburg, from an opposing player, ouch, accidentally beat up a couple teammates before I realized what was happening. That was a cool experience, the other team engaged us directly and it was a blast. It seems like that approach changed as time went on so I kinda lost interest. Did not enjoy being target practice for people I couldn't even find. 

As for the Anxiety issues, If I am not feeling anything going into a Mission, I am probably not going to have much fun. I build decent Characters but intentionally avoid God mode Builds because if there is no chance of losing, and it requires no strategy at all, all I'm doing is wearing out a perfectly good keyboard and mouse.

[Glacier Peak]

There isn't one single cause for the state of PvP in this game, there are many. The root of the cause was the direction that the development team went with powers prior to Issue 13, then the changes they made afterward that created a lower ceiling for player skill (possibly in order to increase the population that participated in this game play mechanic).

 

I think it is important to look backwards to inform future decision making, but the fact is the state of play is where it is at now because of many contributing factors. I don't see any more valid or key than others. Bottom line, in PvP, damage output is king and all other capabilities are second in line to that.

[iBot]

Personally I think PvP in CoH was always a poorly implemented bad idea that just got worse over time.  At its core, CoH is about creating a character that cannot be stopped against incredible odds.  Call it the "Superman" problem.  If you cannot be injured then there is no tension in any battle you face.  With Superman the original writers introduced Kryptonite to attempt to add that bit of tension.  In CoH, we got all the changes and nerfs from PvE to PvP.  I remember to this day how disappointed I was when I first stepped into the arena with my single target sniper blaster and couldn't even dent an opponent.  Even worse, all my stealth and maneuverability was completely useless against an opponent that didn't need to aim.  So yeah, PvP was short lived for me.  The zones were OK but annoying trying to complete an objective or run to a mission door only to be ganked.  The base raids were a cool idea until we realized our base items could be destroyed and no one wanted to risk all that prestige for no reward.  Items of power were promises that never came to full fruition.

 

As it stands now, I don't even bother with the PvP zones.  The badges just aren't enough to motivate me to bother.  And at this stage of the game's life I don't really see anything that the devs could add to the game to change my mind.

[Xenosone]

The pvp in this game is bad. In fact its a travesty. You want pvp, you go play a game dedicated to it from the ground up not some tacked on stat check like this game. The single digit iq's begged and pleaded for pvp to be added to this game saying its for longevity etc and they dont even play. In fact this game out lasted them thats how garbage the pvp in this game is and listening to such people. 

[Troo]

3 hours ago, Crysis said:

Depending on your perspective....PvE is what's "broken," rather than PVP.

 

interesting

 

9 minutes ago, Xenosone said:

The pvp in this game is bad. In fact its a travesty. You want pvp, you go play a game dedicated to it from the ground up not some tacked on stat check like this game. The single digit iq's begged and pleaded for pvp to be added to this game saying its for longevity etc and they dont even play. In fact this game out lasted them thats how garbage the pvp in this game is and listening to such people. 

 

that's weird. pvp was fun, diverse, and fairly popular for many in COH.. I'm not sure why you'd feel the need to try and insult folks.

 

Edited March 22, 2022 by Troo