Why doesnt the -KB proc work in Propel now?

[Heatstroke]

I havent played my Grav/Time in a while and new Propel is knocking everything back. I have tried both the -kb Procs. I didnt do this a while back. Its also like a small AoE now as well. Target one and everyone around it is affected by the knockback. Is there a way to stop this from happening?

[TNT]

I do know that Propel has been changed to do a small AoE knockback without damage.  I haven't tried it in a long time so I don't know about your inability to negate the kb. 

[Psyonico]

I thought that they changed propel to be knockdown instead of knockback, but I'm having trouble reading the COD data to confirm that.

 

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=controller_control.gravity_control.propel&at=controller

[Harakh]

Within the last week I was using propel with -kb on grav dom and it worked fine at +4.

 

Were you fighting even/lower level mobs?

 

If so I'm almost certain you'll experience knockback.

[Troo]

per CoD; Ranged, Extreme DMG(Smash), Foe Knockback

 

in game; has it as Extreme damage and Knockback (mag 2 to 4.15, mag .67).

 

[Heatstroke]

On 5/8/2022 at 10:47 PM, Harakh said:

Within the last week I was using propel with -kb on grav dom and it worked fine at +4.

 

Were you fighting even/lower level mobs?

 

If so I'm almost certain you'll experience knockback.

 

Yeah was fighting mobs my level. Im kinda pissed about this because it never did this before. Now it seems like they increased the KB so much that it sends mobs flying everywhere. 

[Luminara]

In the game testing now with my Grav/TA, mission set to +1/x5, Propel slotted with 5/6 Apocalypse (everything but Damage) and the Sudden Acceleration KB->KD (level 50, not attuned).

 

Primary target, level 52, knocked down and takes damage, secondary targets knocked down.  No knockback.

 

Reset mission to +0/x5.  Primary target, level 51, knocked down and takes damage, secondary targets knocked down.  No knockback.

 

Reset mission to -1/x5.  Primary target, level 50, knocked back, secondary targets knocked down.

 

At level 50, Sudden Acceleration only knocks back when targets are -1 or below, or specifically vulnerable to KB, per test results.  Below level 50, there may be an issue due to Sudden Acceleration using a level variable modifier (Melee_Boosts_60), but I don't have time to run a bunch of Flashbacks this morning to test at different levels.  I'll see if I can work it into my schedule this afternoon/evening.

 

I'll also test Overwhelming Force in Propel when I can (since it uses the Melee_Ones table, which is invariable, all tests can be conducted without Flashback and results will be applicable at all levels).

[Troo]

1 hour ago, Luminara said:

Reset mission to -1/x5.  Primary target, level 50, knocked back, secondary targets knocked down.

 

could a level shift be at play?

[Luminara]

3 hours ago, Troo said:

 

could a level shift be at play?

 

I tested against critters +1 to the character, +0 to the character and -1 to the character, so the Alpha slot shift is irrelevant, the enemy levels were relative to the character level.  Propel's base KB mag will always be 4.15 versus a +0 critter, and it doesn't matter if that critter is 51 or 50, it's still +0 to the character.  The only way Propel can deal greater than 4.15 mag KB is if the critter is susceptible to KB, and the enemies I tested against aren't (CoT).

 

And the Sudden Acceleration KB->KD enhancement can't act as a level 51 enhancement because there is no level 51 in Melee_Boosts_60.  It's capped at 0.764, regardless of level shifts, at level 50.  If there were a level 51 in Melee_Boosts_60, the enhancement would be 0.771, slightly more effective, not less, so that can't be the root of the discrepancy.

 

So the only point at which a level shift could be affecting the outcome would be if the player were 50+1, playing at +0 and encountered -1 foes.  That does happen frequently, it's why I run all of my Incarnated characters at +1.  I suspect that to be the case with the original poster, he/she simply ran into some -1 foes while playing at +0 and using the Sudden Acceleration enhancement, and ran into the KD stacking problem with the Overwhelming Force enhancement.  I'll go ahead and test in sub-50 content, though, because I'm interested in seeing what Melee_Boosts_60 does at lower levels.  Testing Overwhelming Force probably isn't necessary, as we already know that causes KB when two KDs stack, but since I have one, I might as well compile some data on it.

 

But I ain't doin' nothin' until I've had some ibuprofen, some food and some time to bolt the cheap piece of shit exhaust back onto my bike.  Again.  For the tenth time.  Fucking Chinese garbage.  If they'd designed the mounts properly, I wouldn't have wasted so much time trying to keep the goddamn thing from ripping itself off (and failing miserably because i didn't want to modify anything).  But nooooooooooooo, they had to attach the exhaust to the same plate they mounted one of the shocks onto, putting significant stresses on the retention bolts, shearing them off and causing the other exhaust mount points to vibrate loose.  I had to ride home today with the exhaust held on by a single stud nut. because the other stud is broken off inside the head, and I can't drill into it to remove it because the frame is in the way.  They know this engine produces enough vibration to rip the exhaust apart in less than a week, they know adding lateral stress to mounting bolts causes them to fail, and they still designed it this way.  Incompetent motherfuckers.

[Bopper]

7 hours ago, Luminara said:

Primary target, level 52, knocked down and takes damage, secondary targets knocked down.  No knockback.

 

Reset mission to +0/x5.  Primary target, level 51, knocked down and takes damage, secondary targets knocked down.  No knockback.

 

Reset mission to -1/x5.  Primary target, level 50, knocked back, secondary targets knocked down.

Sounds right.

 

The kb2kd IO that you're slotting is flooring your KB strength to 1%. So Propel's 4.15 KB is getting reduced to 0.0415 KB. However, the "splash" knockdown ignores strength, so the IO does nothing to it. This means your main target is getting hit with both 0.67 KB and 0.0415 KB, for a total of 0.7115 KB.

 

As long as your KB is less than 0.75, your target will experience knockdown. So you seeing knockdown at +0 and higher makes sense. But against a -1 target, your purple patch is going to increase your KB by 10%. So now your 0.7115 KB becomes 0.78265 KB which would do knockback.

[Luminara]

1 hour ago, Bopper said:

Sounds right.

 

The kb2kd IO that you're slotting is flooring your KB strength to 1%. So Propel's 4.15 KB is getting reduced to 0.0415 KB. However, the "splash" knockdown ignores strength, so the IO does nothing to it. This means your main target is getting hit with both 0.67 KB and 0.0415 KB, for a total of 0.7115 KB.

 

As long as your KB is less than 0.75, your target will experience knockdown. So you seeing knockdown at +0 and higher makes sense. But against a -1 target, your purple patch is going to increase your KB by 10%. So now your 0.7115 KB becomes 0.78265 KB which would do knockback.

 

That implies that the 0.67 KD also affects the primary target, which would make the actual KB of Propel 4.82, rather than the expected 4.15, without KB->KD enhancements.  I'd assumed that the two effects were distinct, but looking at the data for the power, there's no flag isolating the KD from the KB, or vice versa.  The power info and Real Numbers need to be updated to reflect the real KB.

 

I still want to see if Melee_Boosts_60's scaling variable has any effect at lower levels, but I think testing can wait now that it's clear what was happening.  Thanks for the additional information, @Bopper.

[Troo]

9 hours ago, Bopper said:

However, the "splash" knockdown ignores strength, so the IO does nothing to it.

 

ewww. Are players supposed to know this?

[oedipus_tex]

8 hours ago, Troo said:

 

ewww. Are players supposed to know this?

 

 

I think we've known for a while. The splash also ignores procs, FWIW.

 

For a bit of extra trivia, the AoE portion of the knockdown is one of the very few power attributes that uses the game's Radius Inner and Radius Outer settings. It's always been technically possible to have powers where, say, stuff at the epicenter of the of effect receives a different effect than stuff at the edges. For some reason, Propel and only a handful of other powers uses this. Maybe because the detailed power read out doesn't mention that the radius of the effect is different than the radius of the power.

[BrainDDOS]

On 5/12/2022 at 7:59 AM, oedipus_tex said:

 

 

I think we've known for a while. The splash also ignores procs, FWIW.

 

For a bit of extra trivia, the AoE portion of the knockdown is one of the very few power attributes that uses the game's Radius Inner and Radius Outer settings. It's always been technically possible to have powers where, say, stuff at the epicenter of the of effect receives a different effect than stuff at the edges. For some reason, Propel and only a handful of other powers uses this. Maybe because the detailed power read out doesn't mention that the radius of the effect is different than the radius of the power.

 

Is this the same for Lift's AOE?

[Uun]

21 hours ago, BrainDDOS said:

Is this the same for Lift's AOE?

Lift has no AoE.

[twozerofoxtrot]

First class thread necro.

[BrainDDOS]

15 hours ago, Uun said:

Lift has no AoE.

My bad. Didn't notice. I play TS because they have the wormhole fix, but occasionally check these forums for cool build ideas.

[Solarverse]

On 5/8/2022 at 10:47 PM, Harakh said:

Within the last week I was using propel with -kb on grav dom and it worked fine at +4.

 

Were you fighting even/lower level mobs?

 

If so I'm almost certain you'll experience knockback.

 

or clockwork.