Modernizing Regeneration

[Solarverse]

15 hours ago, Sir Myshkin said:

Don't forget level 50 (w/o Incarnates or other clicks active) 😁

 

This is the problem. I can take any build in this game and add IOs to it and make it look impressive on paper, but what is not being taken in to consideration is all of the magnificent ways the NPC's (especially considering a LOT of the NPC's have been given buffs, or new versions to make them stronger; IE Super Stunners, or some of the new Paragon Protectors) which rips to shreds all of those pretty little stats, since you have absolutely zero resistance to debuffs. In a split second, your Defense can go to -50 and your resistance can be crippled to almost 0 or below and your Regeneration can be brought to its knees. You have nothing to fight back on this.

Also, you are using a Tank build, which gets the absolute best version of Regen to prove some point. That is doing exactly as I asked not to do. I did say, "Please, do not take the absolute best possible build and prove a point based on the absolute best possible builds." or something to that effect.

 

Using the best possible class and using the best possible build while ignoring the fact that there are a LOT of NPC types that would rip that to shreds paints a pretty little picture of a power set that is absolute garbage. Regen is not known for being trash for no reason. It's not some myth people make up, it's not some mass hysteria. It is a very real thing and everyone in general understands that the set is garbage and needs work. If we really want this set to be looked at and fixed, we have to stop trying to paint pretty little pictures of the best possible version of the sets while ignoring how easily that can be destroyed.

For example, I can take you in to a PvP match against a Rad/Dark Defender and have you at your knees in mere seconds. You have nothing to resist it with. I don't PvP, but I sure as hell did not forget how to PvP, and it wouldn't take much to make those impressive numbers look like child's play.

[TheZag]

I didnt realize how bad regen's numbers were if those mids numbers are close to as good as it gets before incarnate powers.  15.5% ranged defense when most of the ranged machine gun shots are also defense debuffs.  That would eat through 40% melee defense in 1 volley from a group of enemies and you are left there with 0 defense after the first attack.  I suppose that is what moment of glory is for,  as long as we can kill half the spawn in those 15 seconds and wait until its recharged before moving to the next mob.  And the regen per second looks like it should help but my bio armor tank knows from hundreds of hours that 80 hp/sec regen is essentially nothing when you dont have any defense.

 

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, Solarverse said:

 

This is the problem. I can take any build in this game and add IOs to it and make it look impressive on paper, but what is not being taken in to consideration is all of the magnificent ways the NPC's (especially considering a LOT of the NPC's have been given buffs, or new versions to make them stronger; IE Super Stunners, or some of the new Paragon Protectors) which rips to shreds all of those pretty little stats, since you have absolutely zero resistance to debuffs. In a split second, your Defense can go to -50 and your resistance can be crippled to almost 0 or below and your Regeneration can be brought to its knees. You have nothing to fight back on this.

Also, you are using a Tank build, which gets the absolute best version of Regen to prove some point. That is doing exactly as I asked not to do. I did say, "Please, do not take the absolute best possible build and prove a point based on the absolute best possible builds." or something to that effect.

 

Using the best possible class and using the best possible build while ignoring the fact that there are a LOT of NPC types that would rip that to shreds paints a pretty little picture of a power set that is absolute garbage. Regen is not known for being trash for no reason. It's not some myth people make up, it's not some mass hysteria. It is a very real thing and everyone in general understands that the set is garbage and needs work. If we really want this set to be looked at and fixed, we have to stop trying to paint pretty little pictures of the best possible version of the sets while ignoring how easily that can be destroyed.

For example, I can take you in to a PvP match against a Rad/Dark Defender and have you at your knees in mere seconds. You have nothing to resist it with. I don't PvP, but I sure as hell did not forget how to PvP, and it wouldn't take much to make those impressive numbers look like child's play.

Then how is this? Note that the numbers on the left are with only auto powers active, while the numbers on the right are with Combat Jumping, Tough, Weave, Acrobatics, and Focused Accuracy active. (Build is a Martial Arts/Regeneration/Leaping/Fighting/Concealment/Body Mastery Scrapper.)

 

 

Also be aware that there are no incarnate powers on this build. (Oh, also, all procs are turned off as well as Dull Pain and Instant Healing. Dull Pain puts regen' rate at 432.9%. Also, while I put a fair bit of concern into boosting regen', it was not my end-all-be-all goal on the build.)

 

As for the mobs that can shred the build? That would be why they were introduced. To give players a challenge they have to figure out how to deal with.

Edited September 6, 2023 by Rudra
Edited to add Dull Pain comment. And another comment in the parenthesis.

[Spaghetti Betty]

1 hour ago, Solarverse said:

Also, you are using a Tank build, which gets the absolute best version of Regen to prove some point.

Tanks don't get Regen. If they did, it would be OP. That's a /Regen Brute. The only leverage they have over a Scrapper is increased HP.

[A Cat]

57 minutes ago, Spaghetti Betty said:

Tanks don't get Regen. If they did, it would be OP. That's a /Regen Brute. The only leverage they have over a Scrapper is increased HP.

And res cap. Scrappers and stalkers cap at 75, so that would take a hit 

[Spaghetti Betty]

2 minutes ago, A Cat said:

And res cap. Scrappers and stalkers cap at 75, so that would take a hit 

D'oh. I was thinking base numbers. Whoops!

[Solarverse]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

Then how is this?

 

/snip

 

As for the mobs that can shred the build? That would be why they were introduced. To give players a challenge they have to figure out how to deal with.

 

All other sets have resistance to Debuffs. Regen? Gets one. One Debuff resist to Regen at 25% (assuming mids is correct) which that all in of itself is a huge backseat to other sets.

[Solarverse]

1 hour ago, Spaghetti Betty said:

Tanks don't get Regen. If they did, it would be OP. That's a /Regen Brute. The only leverage they have over a Scrapper is increased HP.

 

Brutes, Tanks...splitting hairs there me thinks. I should have been specific, Brutes to me are Tanks, so I say tanks as a blanket statement. Sorry for the confusion on my part.

I do find this peculiar though.

 

Most of you know me. I have been against Power Creep from DAY ONE of this game, I have always been completely against anything that introduces power creep in this game...so when I say something is sadly lacking and actually needs a buff (which is something that is insanely rare) then there is something to that. I don't just give in to the masses of hysteria and scream wolf. However, Regen is such shit, regardless of how wonderful you all want to pretend that it is, that you literally see nobody running it in late game. Where are all these Regen players at exactly? Are they hiding? Is it some secret club? I cannot tell you the last time I actually seen Regen anything that wasn't Sentinel. The set suffers from everything this game has to throw at you. It suffers from Sappers, it suffers from -Defense Debuffs, it suffers from -Resistance Debuffs, it suffers from -Regeneration Debuffs, it suffers from pretty much every debuff this game has to throw at you. Want to know what other sets suffer from this? None. All other sets have Debuff resistance built in to the builds and at a reasonable amount. Regen, one power that gives a whopping 25% Resist. Let me hit you with that 500% Regen Debuff and tell me how that 25% is working out for you?

 

But hell, you know what? I don't give a damn anymore. For whatever reason, players want to keep the set down. I guess its heyday of being OP left a bad taste in everyone's mouth and they will do anything they can to cast an illusion that the set isn't complete garbage. I see through it. I for one spit on Regen...it's trash, it has always been trash since 2004 and it will always be trash for as long as people want to pretend that it's great. It feels like there is some motive here that I am not seeing because I cannot fathom in the brightest of minds how in the hell you all can actually believe yourselves when you say the set is fine as is.

 

I am completely shocked I am even having to defend the fact that the set is shit, yet back in 2019 everyone was pretty much in agreeance that the set needed help, now all of a sudden it's just fantastic! I'm not buying it one single bit.

[Solarverse]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

Then how is this? Note that the numbers on the left are with only auto powers active, while the numbers on the right are with Combat Jumping, Tough, Weave, Acrobatics, and Focused Accuracy active. (Build is a Martial Arts/Regeneration/Leaping/Fighting/Concealment/Body Mastery Scrapper.)

 

 

Also be aware that there are no incarnate powers on this build. (Oh, also, all procs are turned off as well as Dull Pain and Instant Healing. Dull Pain puts regen' rate at 432.9%. Also, while I put a fair bit of concern into boosting regen', it was not my end-all-be-all goal on the build.)

 

As for the mobs that can shred the build? That would be why they were introduced. To give players a challenge they have to figure out how to deal with.

 

I have been working Regen builds for a long time, I am trying to figure out how you are getting 45% Defense to melee? Are you adding the 10% from Storm Kick? Also, the numbers is not my problem, it is the lack of Debuff Resists that is my primary problem, and if the Devs are not going to give us reasonable Debuff Resists, then those pretty numbers right there mean absolute squat. The set needs higher regeneration to balance out the fact that it has crap Debuff Resists, otherwise that set is going to fall in battle often.

[Rudra]

29 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

 

All other sets have resistance to Debuffs. Regen? Gets one. One Debuff resist to Regen at 25% (assuming mids is correct) which that all in of itself is a huge backseat to other sets.

Sure, but let's look at your cited foes. Super Stunners have no -regen attacks. They do have -END and -Recovery attacks, but regeneration characters aren't exactly in a panic over that. (My friend's Katana/Regeneration Scrapper doesn't even notice the Super Stunners' attacks.) And the only forces Crey has that have -regen' attacks are the Cryogenecists and the radiation Paragon Protectors (including the Elite version). And the rad' PPs are priority kills for me and everyone I know because they like to murder every AT regardless of build. (They're radiation after all.)

 

Sure, my friend's Katana/Regeneration Scrapper dies from time to time, but as she says, it is always her own fault when it happens for not paying attention.

 

Now bear in mind, I would actually like to see Regeneration get buffed. I agree that the nerfs it suffered were over the top. (Just like I'm not a fan of the constant nerfing Brutes got back on Live.) However, like @Troo said, the set isn't as bad as seemingly everyone likes to make it out to be. It just takes a lot of attention and work. (Edit: The main problem I see is how do the devs restore Regeneration without making it unkillable like it pretty much was before the nerfs?)

Edited September 6, 2023 by Rudra

[Rudra]

11 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

 

I have been working Regen builds for a long time, I am trying to figure out how you are getting 45% Defense to melee? Are you adding the 10% from Storm Kick? Also, the numbers is not my problem, it is the lack of Debuff Resists that is my primary problem, and if the Devs are not going to give us reasonable Debuff Resists, then those pretty numbers right there mean absolute squat. The set needs higher regeneration to balance out the fact that it has crap Debuff Resists, otherwise that set is going to fall in battle often.

Uhm... not that I know of. I didn't save the build, so I would have to go back and remake it to find out. I did have 5 sets of Touch of Death though. (Edit: I also slotted Weave with 4 slots in case that made a difference?) (Edit again: Oh yeah, I always slot my +Perception power regardless of what it may be with 6 enhancements from Gaussian's Synchronized Fire Control.)

 

Edit yet again: Storm Kick doesn't grant any defense bonus, either passively or by Mids activation, in my version of Mids. So it definitely isn't that. I just threw another one together with no enhancements, and I can't make Storm Kick do anything on the build.

Edited September 6, 2023 by Rudra

[Solarverse]

3 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Sure, but let's look at your cited foes. Super Stunners have no -regen attacks. They do have -END and -Recovery attacks, but regeneration characters aren't exactly in a panic over that. (My friend's Katana/Regeneration Scrapper doesn't even notice the Super Stunners' attacks.) And the only forces Crey has that have -regen' attacks are the Cryogenecists and the radiation Paragon Protectors (including the Elite version). And the rad' PPs are priority kills for me and everyone I know because they like to murder every AT regardless of build. (They're radiation after all.)

 

This might sound like I am coming at you, I promise you that I am not. In fact, I respect a great number of you folks on these boards, so please do not take me like I am attacking you, I am not, I am defending the fact that Regen is garbage, nothing more. Having said that, Sappers has been a major thorn in my Regen's side throughout this game. The only way it is not is if I take Ageless in to my builds. Without Ageless, sappers can knock out my toggles in no time...and since my largest Regeneration buff outside of IH comes from Integration, that hits me right where the sun don't shine. So I am curious how the constant that most others know to be true, is that Sappers are a Regen's Kryptonite, how is it your friend has zero problems with them?

 

3 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Sure, my friend's Katana/Regeneration Scrapper dies from time to time, but as she says, it is always her own fault when it happens for not paying attention.

 

She dies because the set is extremely click dependent. It wasn't always this way. Once upon a time, IH was a toggle, and when you need to click Heal, it was not quite as a timing emergency. One thing I have noticed, is that my health drops so insanely fast, that by the time my heal finishes animating and finally gives me that Heal, it's too late. Those Heals have to animate first, and Regen has such a hard time that watching that heal animate is almost as bad as watching trees grow. At least prior to IO's, but if a mob debuffs your Resistance...well, it's back to the same problem....Heals take far too long to animate and the set has no resistance to debuffs to speak of.

 

3 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Now bear in mind, I would actually like to see Regeneration get buffed. I agree that the nerfs it suffered were over the top. (Just like I'm not a fan of the constant nerfing Brutes got back on Live.) However, like @Troo said, the set isn't as bad as seemingly everyone likes to make it out to be. It just takes a lot of attention and work.

 

I agree...to a point. That set does not need some major buff, it need tweaks. So we for sure see eye to eye on this.

[Solarverse]

9 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Uhm... not that I know of. I didn't save the build, so I would have to go back and remake it to find out. I did have 5 sets of Touch of Death though. (Edit: I also slotted Weave with 4 slots in case that made a difference?)

 

I mean, I guess it's possible that you are not adding in the bonus to Defense from Storm Kick, I typically focus more on Resistance and Regen, where I see you tried to have an equal balance of Regen, Resistance and put a bit more focus on Defense.

[Rudra]

2 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

 

I mean, I guess it's possible that you are not adding in the bonus to Defense from Storm Kick, I typically focus more on Resistance and Regen, where I see you tried to have an equal balance of Regen, Resistance and put a bit more focus on Defense.

Yeah, I also focused on improving my END usage and getting my recovery up as much as possible. So I wasn't really focused on anything in particular, just trying to be a generalist for multi-situational survival.

Edited September 6, 2023 by Rudra
Edited to add "improving" and moving "getting".

[Rudra]

9 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

This might sound like I am coming at you, I promise you that I am not. In fact, I respect a great number of you folks on these boards, so please do not take me like I am attacking you, I am not, I am defending the fact that Regen is garbage, nothing more. Having said that, Sappers has been a major thorn in my Regen's side throughout this game. The only way it is not is if I take Ageless in to my builds. Without Ageless, sappers can knock out my toggles in no time...and since my largest Regeneration buff outside of IH comes from Integration, that hits me right where the sun don't shine. So I am curious how the constant that most others know to be true, is that Sappers are a Regen's Kryptonite, how is it your friend has zero problems with them?

She pauses before attacking Malta, picks out the Sapper(s), and then murders them before I can call them out.

 

Edit: As for her timing her heals? She is routinely clicking a heal when her health hits somewhere between 30-50%. If her health drops below 20%, she pops an incarnate heal or a green inspiration.

Edited September 6, 2023 by Rudra

[Solarverse]

2 minutes ago, Rudra said:

She pauses before attacking Malta, picks out the Sapper(s), and then murders them before I can call them out.

 

lol, fair enough  🙂

[biostem]

Regen simply cannot "no-sell" incoming attacks from groups of enemies like someone with layered defenses can.  Maybe regen for melee ATs could use some absorb, like how sentinels get.  That, and hefty helping of resistance to slows, end drain, and the like...

[Sir Myshkin]

4 hours ago, Solarverse said:

Using the best possible class and using the best possible build while ignoring the fact that there are a LOT of NPC types that would rip that to shreds paints a pretty little picture of a power set that is absolute garbage.

 

1 hour ago, Solarverse said:

I am completely shocked I am even having to defend the fact that the set is shit, yet back in 2019 everyone was pretty much in agreeance that the set needed help, now all of a sudden it's just fantastic! I'm not buying it one single bit.

 

I may in fact be one of the only voices who have routinely stood up for Regen as being a perfectly capable set. I have seen what it can do both pre and post IO world, and the post IO world just allows it to do more solo by contrast. Regen is by and far the most advantageous set available in the nature of its uniqueness. Unlike other sets which build up a lot of their own shielding, regen builds up its HP and ability to restore it, leaving the shielding to outside sources (when excluding IO's from the picture) meaning it has the ability to gain the most impact from a diverse buff group compared to any other set.

 

"Far too often people look at the sets in a vacuum of isolated play and forget that this is an MMO."

 

Yes solo play is possible, and I have a dear friend who still to this day is die-hard on regen being their go-to for solo play, but it is the team dynamic where it truly has an opportunity to shine. When you add IO's into the mix Regen is an unstoppable force like no other. Would I turn down a beneficial buff to the set? No, but the core of my sentiments towards this set have always, always been that it is not a fault of the set, but a fault of the player's for being unable to meld with it. It is not a set for everyone.

 

The reason I (partly in jest) posted that snippet shot of a Brute build is because what Regen can achieve is incredible, and I've done the same thing on a Scrapper as well. Back in 2019 I ran the challenge of taking a Scrapper through many of the current challenges in the game with rather broad success, and more recently I did it with a Brute focusing on a different tactic (Resistance building) and took it into the newer challenges like the modified ITF and Aeon and proved that it is capable of tanking those starred runs. Is it all incredibly easy mode? No, it does take a mind of consideration, of pre-planning, and of skilled judgement to pull off, but it can be done.

 

My Regen Brute is by far one of my most powerful alts in my stable hands down, and it shares that house with a SS/Rad/Soul Brute and a Full-Def/Res Granite Tank. When that build starts its cycle of clicks (IH, Melee, Rune, Barrier) it is incredibly hard for most enemy groups in the game to shut it down faster than it can kill them. Has it died? Of course it has, but that was often my error, not Regen.

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, Solarverse said:

 

I have been working Regen builds for a long time, I am trying to figure out how you are getting 45% Defense to melee? Are you adding the 10% from Storm Kick? Also, the numbers is not my problem, it is the lack of Debuff Resists that is my primary problem, and if the Devs are not going to give us reasonable Debuff Resists, then those pretty numbers right there mean absolute squat. The set needs higher regeneration to balance out the fact that it has crap Debuff Resists, otherwise that set is going to fall in battle often.

I threw another one together. It didn't turn out the same, but maybe it will give you some ideas to work with.

 

 

 

[Solarverse]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

I threw another one together. It didn't turn out the same, but maybe it will give you some ideas to work with.

 

 

 

 

This is similar to what I get. However, I traded in a bit of Defense (since most mobs eat that up anyway without any DDR) for a bit more Regen.

 

[Marbing]

Regen is great on a brute because the sacrifices you need to make in order to make it tough aren’t as felt as they are on scrappers and stalkers. It still needs to be looked at, especially on stalkers. 
 

EDIT: At very minimum regen needs to be nearly immune to -regen. Just like SR is to -def. Also, what’s lost in the numbers is the negative impact regen has on your DPS output, whether it is through build sacrifice to make it have decent durability  or simply through the sheer number of clickies you have to spam to stay alive thus interrupting your attack chain.

 

 

Edited September 6, 2023 by Marbing

[Solarverse]

8 hours ago, Rudra said:

I threw another one together. It didn't turn out the same, but maybe it will give you some ideas to work with.

 

 

 

 

In this build, is your Dull Pain perma? I clicked to On any abilities that were Perma, since that would reflect the character 24/7. Abilities that fell short of Perma were clicked off. So if it is Perma, I am curious what your Max HP is with it on?

[BrandX]

10 hours ago, Solarverse said:

 

Brutes, Tanks...splitting hairs there me thinks. I should have been specific, Brutes to me are Tanks, so I say tanks as a blanket statement. Sorry for the confusion on my part.

I do find this peculiar though.

 

Most of you know me. I have been against Power Creep from DAY ONE of this game, I have always been completely against anything that introduces power creep in this game...so when I say something is sadly lacking and actually needs a buff (which is something that is insanely rare) then there is something to that. I don't just give in to the masses of hysteria and scream wolf. However, Regen is such shit, regardless of how wonderful you all want to pretend that it is, that you literally see nobody running it in late game. Where are all these Regen players at exactly? Are they hiding? Is it some secret club? I cannot tell you the last time I actually seen Regen anything that wasn't Sentinel. The set suffers from everything this game has to throw at you. It suffers from Sappers, it suffers from -Defense Debuffs, it suffers from -Resistance Debuffs, it suffers from -Regeneration Debuffs, it suffers from pretty much every debuff this game has to throw at you. Want to know what other sets suffer from this? None. All other sets have Debuff resistance built in to the builds and at a reasonable amount. Regen, one power that gives a whopping 25% Resist. Let me hit you with that 500% Regen Debuff and tell me how that 25% is working out for you?

 

But hell, you know what? I don't give a damn anymore. For whatever reason, players want to keep the set down. I guess its heyday of being OP left a bad taste in everyone's mouth and they will do anything they can to cast an illusion that the set isn't complete garbage. I see through it. I for one spit on Regen...it's trash, it has always been trash since 2004 and it will always be trash for as long as people want to pretend that it's great. It feels like there is some motive here that I am not seeing because I cannot fathom in the brightest of minds how in the hell you all can actually believe yourselves when you say the set is fine as is.

 

I am completely shocked I am even having to defend the fact that the set is shit, yet back in 2019 everyone was pretty much in agreeance that the set needed help, now all of a sudden it's just fantastic! I'm not buying it one single bit.

 

It's my main, if I'm not playing an Alt, I play it!  

Have to be honest, I was worried I was going to be the one dying when going for all the Master Badges O.O  Went in with the really big inspirations to help make sure that didn't happen AND came close a couple of times.

I may have just been lucky that a blaster or stalker died before I did 😛

[Rudra]

5 hours ago, Solarverse said:

 

In this build, is your Dull Pain perma? I clicked to On any abilities that were Perma, since that would reflect the character 24/7. Abilities that fell short of Perma were clicked off. So if it is Perma, I am curious what your Max HP is with it on?

Most likely not. I never bother to aim for perma anything. I just gave it a nice little recharge so that it could be used often, not constantly. (Edit: If it is perma? That would be completely by accident.)

 

(Edit again: If I'm being completely honest? I think most attempts to make things perma is a waste of effort. There are some things that are definite advantages, though none currently come to mind, but others? I find it works much better for me to forego trying for perma anything and more focusing on general survivability rather than on any specific trick or tactic.)

Edited September 6, 2023 by Rudra

[BrandX]

5 hours ago, Rudra said:

Most likely not. I never bother to aim for perma anything. I just gave it a nice little recharge so that it could be used often, not constantly. (Edit: If it is perma? That would be completely by accident.)

 

(Edit again: If I'm being completely honest? I think most attempts to make things perma is a waste of effort. There are some things that are definite advantages, though none currently come to mind, but others? I find it works much better for me to forego trying for perma anything and more focusing on general survivability rather than on any specific trick or tactic.)

 

For a Regen Hasten and +Recharge set bonuses are great, as thy get all those clickies back.  That said, I don't recall Dull Pain being to hard to perma, but I would guess in your build you may have forgone any purples for instance.