Modernizing Regeneration

[jack_nomind]

My maths may be wrong but I will try :) 

 

If a /sr has a 10% chance of getting hit. And a regen has a 95% chance.  If there are 10 incoming hits for 100 damage a piece. That’s 1000 dam.

 

My guesswork maths

For /sr 1000dam x .1 equals 100 damage received. From those 10 hits.  300 absorb minus 100 leaves you with 200 more absorb points.

 

For /regen 1000dam x .95 equals 950 damage received. From those 10 hits.  800 absorb minus 950 leaves you with 150 less hp.

 

That’s a 350 hp + absorb difference.

 

Your math isn't quite on point (though I did your addendum) because you're leaving out a dimension -- the absorb refresh over time we're suggesting.  If those two hypothetical powers started at full absorb capacity and refreshed 10% a second, and the attacks occurred at 1/s, neither example would end up with any HP damage in that time.  Leaving out regeneration (or absorb refresh) rates when talking about Regeneration the set is really easy since we so rarely bring it in to mitigation discussions, but it really undercuts the issues at hand.

[Brutal Justice]

Yeah I was thinking of a one time click +absorb power.  A refreshing absorb click or toggle would effectually be like a +hp power at full health and a +regen power after that.

[Galaxy Brain]

A refreshing absorb also directly softens bigger hits by a portion, which is nice. Given hug hits dont happen rapid succession, being able to ignore smaller hits to your hp allows regen time to heal up for the next big hit

[Leogunner]

While Regen can still have great performance when you use it actively, the concept of Regen as "I passively heal real fast" is strictly done better in Willpower.

 

...

Thoughts?

 

I've always been of the belief that a name isn't as important as the outcome.  That is, just because the set says "Regeneration" in the name and the initial intent was to make a Wolverine-esque type defensive powerset, if another set does and looks like the desired goal, it's fine as long as each individual set has somewhat of a niche and remains balanced.  So Wolverine is a guy with claws that regenerates injuries quick and passively...in CoX terms, he's Claws/WP and there's nothing wrong with that.

[Zumberge]

I've always been of the belief that a name isn't as important as the outcome.  That is, just because the set says "Regeneration" in the name and the initial intent was to make a Wolverine-esque type defensive powerset, if another set does and looks like the desired goal, it's fine as long as each individual set has somewhat of a niche and remains balanced.  So Wolverine is a guy with claws that regenerates injuries quick and passively...in CoX terms, he's Claws/WP and there's nothing wrong with that.

 

But the topic is about Regeneration under-performing both in general, and specifically compared to another set - Willpower - which largely does what Regeneration was originally created to do, in addition to other thing.  Regen's niche is occupied, and it is not balanced.

 

_{(In any case WP's gimmick is more that it's a little bit of everything: More health, regen, recovery, resists, and defenses all layered on top of each other with the hopes that something's gonna run into at least a little trouble with dealing damage to you, with the main drawbacks being a lack of a direct heal and the fact that you're not really a silver bullet against any particular enemy group or damage type.)}

[Leogunner]

I've always been of the belief that a name isn't as important as the outcome.  That is, just because the set says "Regeneration" in the name and the initial intent was to make a Wolverine-esque type defensive powerset, if another set does and looks like the desired goal, it's fine as long as each individual set has somewhat of a niche and remains balanced.  So Wolverine is a guy with claws that regenerates injuries quick and passively...in CoX terms, he's Claws/WP and there's nothing wrong with that.

 

But the topic is about Regeneration under-performing both in general, and specifically compared to another set - Willpower - which largely does what Regeneration was originally created to do, in addition to other thing.  Regen's niche is occupied, and it is not balanced.

 

_{(In any case WP's gimmick is more that it's a little bit of everything: More health, regen, recovery, resists, and defenses all layered on top of each other with the hopes that something's gonna run into at least a little trouble with dealing damage to you, with the main drawbacks being a lack of a direct heal and the fact that you're not really a silver bullet against any particular enemy group or damage type.)}

 

Although I have no qualms with changing or improving Regeneration, you sort of hit my point on the head:  So Willpower does a bit of everything with regards to mitigation methods...and it simulates passive regeneration better than Regen...so with respect to logic, passive regeneration, mechanically, SHOULD be the parts that Willpower presents. 

 

What Regeneration is is some type of damage negation ability, thus we should probably make changes to it not to help it fill the role it's "supposed" to fill because it's called Regen, but what such a superpower as damage negation actually entails mechanically.  A set built on the literal concept of the HP regen mechanic doesn't simulate comic book passive regen because time tends to be a factor of plot which is what passive regeneration requires, time.

 

I'm still skimming over the suggestions posted but I just wanted to express my opinion on the basis of the thread as well.

 

Off Topic: I actually thought about this set thoroughly back during live.  My only Regen character was an Elec/Regen Stalker and his concept was actually damage negation, not regeneration.  Basically, he could become injured and then "seal" away the injury with magic, becoming a kind of mark/tatoo on his skin.  He's still injured but the damage/pain/effects of the injury are stopped.  He would still have to go back and undo the seal so that his injury could heal properly but he could technically have his arm ripped off and just negate it until a time he could deal with the injury fully.  This, IMO, is what the Regeneration set ACTUALLY simulates. 

[jack_nomind]

In any case WP's gimmick is more that it's a little bit of everything: More health, regen, recovery, resists, and defenses all layered on top of each other with the hopes that something's gonna run into at least a little trouble with dealing damage to you, with the main drawbacks being a lack of a direct heal and the fact that you're not really a silver bullet against any particular enemy group or damage type.)

 

It's not that WP does healing better than Regen; Regen vastly outheals WP.  It's that this "little bit of everything" is both easy to level and plays really nicely with set bonuses, and that WP doesn't have any real need of (or use for) +rech to get that "little bit of everything."  If all of WP's +def and +res powers were on cooldowns like so much of Regen's... regen... is, it would be fighting itself for slotting space.  Instead, each WP power can be slotted almost entirely for {whatever it's supposed to do} and then a little bit for endredux.  It still takes some careful work to get to softcap, but it's possible to do without seriously cutting away the utility of other powers in a way that just isn't true for Regen.  (I've seen people deliberately use perma shadowmeld to softcap Regen, even though it eats 20% of their DPS with its 3s recast every 15s.)

 

Heh, now I want to go make a WP toon.

[Galaxy Brain]

Its more that WP is weirdly directly comparable while doing the "Regen" theme better overall

[nihilii]

It always seemed to me that IH didn't need to be made a click power that couldn't be made perman it needed a change in how it worked to make it more in line with other defensive powers and to better match its name. The concept I had was to return IH to being a toggle, but that instead of cranking a character's regen rate, it made every hit the character took act similarly to the way Spectral Wounds does -- you get hit, and you take all the damage, then after a moment, an enhanceable fraction of that damage 'instantly' heals. This would make IH directly comparable to and balanceable against the Resistance and Defense toggles, while keeping it thematic to the powerset. And because its effect would only get applied once against each incoming attack, it, wouldn't add to the 'OP regen' perception. But it would have a good visual effect in combat, popping up big green heal numbers as IH healed the incoming hits, and keep a Regen character's health bar dynamic in tough fights, bouncing up and down as they dance with taking damage too fast to heal.

 

This is such a cool idea! And, if we look at the way Preventive Medecine's absorb proc works, there's already code in the game for something like this to work. i.e., IH could provide you with a chance to instantly heal X% HP, for that chance to rise to 100% as HP goes down, and with a cooldown.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

Anyone that thinks WP surpasses or obsoletes Regen is bad at regen period. Saw that same tripe happen after WP released. And saw WP tanks, scrappers and brutes all eat dirt while my BS regen wiped 8 man dif groups solo and then rezzed the team with the healing pool revive.

 

Regen with the right primary, and smart play has no equal. Being bad as a player doesnt make the power set bad, its a higher skill prereq to be great is all.

 

Dark Regen has NO EQUAL. I once taught a player with that very combo who called himself gimp how to use it. He eventually shelved it because it made the game have zero challenge or thrill for him. Still recall how after I brought him on a TF in the shadow shard shortly after he respecced he said to me " Man I cant ever recall rushing a AV and not wondering if I could do anything, Now I am eager to solo them"

 

Regen needs a little breathing room, To hit debuffing is the best, but even Parry in the sword sets compliments it insanely well. Combo that with a pure global recharge focus in your IO sets and nothing in the game is a threat to you.

 

Im sorry if this sounds combative. But I love me REGEN as is and I doubt any changes suggested here would do other then ruin my love.

 

Demetrios Vasilikos, Task Force commander of Virtue.

[theta31]

NERF REGEN!

 

heh, kidding.

 

Hey, somebody had to!

 

Regen's fine... NERF WILLPOWER!  :)

[CdrRogdan]

How about making it so that reconstruction functions when you would be reduced below 1 hp, and instead sets your hp to 1 and heals you. It would make it so that one of it's weaknesses (big hits out of nowhere) gets shored up a little.

[MalphiteMeIRL]

The concept I had was to return IH to being a toggle, but that instead of cranking a character's regen rate, it made every hit the character took act similarly to the way Spectral Wounds does -- you get hit, and you take all the damage, then after a moment, an enhanceable fraction of that damage 'instantly' heals. This would make IH directly comparable to and balanceable against the Resistance and Defense toggles, while keeping it thematic to the powerset. And because its effect would only get applied once against each incoming attack, it, wouldn't add to the 'OP regen' perception. But it would have a good visual effect in combat, popping up big green heal numbers as IH healed the incoming hits, and keep a Regen character's health bar dynamic in tough fights, bouncing up and down as they dance with taking damage too fast to heal.

 

+1 I dig this idea depending on if they can get it working.

 

 

Regen has always been an odd set to me, on one hand it feels really flimsy but on the other hand I've known Regens that could solo the itf prior to incarnate slots. Personally I assumed it was a l2p issue since I could never get it working in PvE for myself.  :P

 

From my limited experience when slotted with just SOs it feels quite fragile in comparison to most other sets. Outside of PvP at least.. PvP is where it has always shined.

 

[Chance Jackson]

Instant Healing being a toggle is never what overpowered Regen IMO.  Stuff like being able to stack Dull Pain and being able to build (pre-ED) where a Regen scrapper could tank Hamidon with little support  was.  We had a Spines/Regen scrapper (who the name escapes me right now but perhaps someone will remember it) that used to tank Hami for us on Triumph.  However, building to be able to tank Hami gimped the DPS to the point of being useless, so there was a trade off there.  Again, this was also pre-ED - everyone's favorite update.

 

Regen always had (and still does have) its drawbacks - poor Alpha Strike mitigation (without MoG) and little to no -regen -heal debuffs.

 

I had wondered whether IH should have been kept as a toggle, but work something along the lines of Tough Hide or Phalanx Fighting where the regen %was based off the number of enemies in melee range instead of a flat X% regeneration.

 

Not sure of what would make this set better.... my main back in the day was MA/Regen, but I have since re-rolled her as MA/Nin or MA/SR.  Regen is just too bland now IMO.

my very first toon was Ma/Regen back in issue 0/ 1 (back before the katana animation changes)

[Galaxy Brain]

Anyone that thinks WP surpasses or obsoletes Regen is bad at regen period. Saw that same tripe happen after WP released. And saw WP tanks, scrappers and brutes all eat dirt while my BS regen wiped 8 man dif groups solo and then rezzed the team with the healing pool revive.

 

Regen with the right primary, and smart play has no equal. Being bad as a player doesnt make the power set bad, its a higher skill prereq to be great is all.

 

Dark Regen has NO EQUAL. I once taught a player with that very combo who called himself gimp how to use it. He eventually shelved it because it made the game have zero challenge or thrill for him. Still recall how after I brought him on a TF in the shadow shard shortly after he respecced he said to me " Man I cant ever recall rushing a AV and not wondering if I could do anything, Now I am eager to solo them"

 

Regen needs a little breathing room, To hit debuffing is the best, but even Parry in the sword sets compliments it insanely well. Combo that with a pure global recharge focus in your IO sets and nothing in the game is a threat to you.

 

Im sorry if this sounds combative. But I love me REGEN as is and I doubt any changes suggested here would do other then ruin my love.

 

Demetrios Vasilikos, Task Force commander of Virtue.

 

 

Not sure how adding debuff resists would ruin regen. I agree that as is it is still a strong set, but it actively lowers dps by having to stop and use your defensive powers, which in turn are very susceptible to recharge debuffs...

[Brutal Justice]

Add some +hp to fast healing and some absorb to resilience is probably all regen needs to be modernized.  With more hp your passive regen will be improved and absorb will act like a +hp to eat an alpha strike and then act like regen after taking damage and allow your passive regen to get more mileage.  These two additions will also help with -rech debuffs since they are unaffected by such things.  I think that’s all it really needs, no reason to get overly complicated.  And port it to tanks.  Then NERF REGEN! after those tweaks. In that order.

[Galaxy Brain]

Add some +hp to fast healing and some absorb to resilience is probably all regen needs to be modernized.  With more hp your passive regen will be improved and absorb will act like a +hp to eat an alpha strike and then act like regen after taking damage and allow your passive regen to get more mileage.  These two additions will also help with -rech debuffs since they are unaffected by such things.  I think that’s all it really needs, no reason to get overly complicated.  And port it to tanks.  Then NERF REGEN! after those tweaks. In that order.

 

This sounds solid too! Though I do think debuff resistance could be added in... maybe to quick recovery to make it stand out a bit?

[Galaxy Brain]

So to reiterate,  regen probably just needs slight tweaks to be up to par.

 

It for sure could use some other debuff resistances (namely to recharge) in order to function, and having a bit of +absorb like in the sent version would also be nice.

 

In today's meta tho... would IH being a toggle again actually be busted?

[Some Random User]

On 6/6/2019 at 9:47 PM, Vanden said:

If I had my druthers, the T1 power in Regeneration would be Revive, and it'd have a super short recharge, like 30 seconds.

How would this idea interact with Debt?

[Zumberge]

2 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

So to reiterate,  regen probably just needs slight tweaks to be up to par.

 

It for sure could use some other debuff resistances (namely to recharge) in order to function, and having a bit of +absorb like in the sent version would also be nice.

 

In today's meta tho... would IH being a toggle again actually be busted?

The easiest thing to do would be to use IH before standard meta fights, extrapolate the information on its performance and apply it across a longer time scale, i.e. if the power had no downtime.

 

There's probably no shortage of volunteers, and failing that when the test server is about, it has commands that instantly put you at level 50 and give you all the inf and recipes you could possibly need.

 

_{(Using performance on a test server to argue for buffing Regeneration.  I like it, it's very cyclical.)}

[Vanden]

50 minutes ago, Some Random User said:

How would this idea interact with Debt?

Revive gives a period of Debt protection already, so, I guess there would be no change.

[Galaxy Brain]

3 hours ago, Zumberge said:

The easiest thing to do would be to use IH before standard meta fights, extrapolate the information on its performance and apply it across a longer time scale, i.e. if the power had no downtime.

 

There's probably no shortage of volunteers, and failing that when the test server is about, it has commands that instantly put you at level 50 and give you all the inf and recipes you could possibly need.

 

_{(Using performance on a test server to argue for buffing Regeneration.  I like it, it's very cyclical.)}

Technically, all we need to do is look at the uptime vs the average length of a fight, and then the average time between fights and you can get an idea. If avg fight is X, avg gap is Y, we are just measuring X+Y * Amount of fights 

[Some Random User]

5 hours ago, Vanden said:

Revive gives a period of Debt protection already, so, I guess there would be no change.

You are saying you'd get immunity after the resurrect, right? So you'd still have Debt for initially getting killed. Presumably the duration of the cooldown and the duration of the Debt protection would be equal? If not, do you see anything wrong with letting a player get Debt then daisy-chain Debt protection as they get dropped and self-rez over and over? If the recharge is equal or longer, wouldn't you rather just stay alive more?

[Zepp]

I would argue that Instant Healing could be on a 450 cooldown 120 duration (or auto/toggle) with 50-75% of the current regen bonus would be a reasonable adjustment to make it compare better with other sets while not making it OP. Maybe add some debuff resist to it for good measure?

 

Currently Regen has two OhShtick buttons, Instant Healing, which through incarnates and IOs can be up only about two thirds of the time allows your big OhShtick I'm in the middle of it and I need survivability for another minute and a half or I'm toast. While MoG gives you that big OhShtick I'm about to die unless I disengage button. By spreading out that bonus at a lower degree and removing one click you may lose the ability to get to nearly 2k regen, but have a reliable 1.5k regen...

Edited July 25, 2019 by Zepp

[Vanden]

54 minutes ago, Some Random User said:

You are saying you'd get immunity after the resurrect, right? So you'd still have Debt for initially getting killed. Presumably the duration of the cooldown and the duration of the Debt protection would be equal? If not, do you see anything wrong with letting a player get Debt then daisy-chain Debt protection as they get dropped and self-rez over and over? If the recharge is equal or longer, wouldn't you rather just stay alive more?

Not really. Debt is pretty meaningless these days, it's been nerfed so hard since its heyday; you pretty much have to encounter the infamous death loop in the mission to defend the Midnighter Mansion in Night Ward to actually accrue a meaningful amount of debt.