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So, what do we think about Savage?


Metatheory
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I'm quite enjoying mine. I like the fact that it feels fast and has pleasing animations, and despite the fact that it doesn't really have any serious heavy hitting attacks and is lethal damage type I still manage to shred through most baddies. I really like the low endurance cost once blood frenzy starts getting stacked up, and it's easy to maintain and swish away for as long as necessary. Good for that old scrapper-blender effect.

 

But, I am kinda curious about the best way to use the 'consumer' attacks Hemorrhage and Rending Flurry. The damage buff is noticeable, but so is the increased hit on the blue bar afterwards, and I find that a lot of the time I tend not to hit either of those powers once I reach 5 stacks of Blood Frenzy as I *think* I like the end cost reduction better. It's hard to tell, because the damage boost is all DoT so you don't get that instant 'crunchy' feedback you get with a classic buildup for example; you have to kinda trust that it's there.

 

Speaking of... Blood Thirst, the buildup replacement, is also a strange beast because of how it interacts with that Blood Frenzy mechanic. As it instantly gives you 5 stacks on top of the classic +dmg/+to-hit it's both good... and potentially a fast track to depleting your blue bar if you hit Hemo/Rending.

 

How is everyone else working with/around the inherent weird mechanics of the set?

 

p.s. Don't drop in just to say 'savage is rubbish' =) There's no such things as a rubbish scrapper primary and this one is interesting as it even allows a little - *gasp* - thinking while scrappin'

Edited by Metatheory
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From what I've gathered/been told, build up Frenzy, cruise along, hit Rending Flurry for the max usage, immediately hit Thirst to get back all your Frenzy stacks, profit. I keep seeing people post that Hemorrhage is broken and thus skippable.

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For me, the key to Savage is the realization that you never want to hit 5 stacks. As long as you're below 5 stacks, you won't incur the 15 second lockout and you can continue to gain the EndRed/Recharge bonuses.

 

This makes Savage on a non-Stalker problematic. On a Stalker, you've got Build Up (fueled by the ATO) that works well with Savage Leap as a mini-ultimate attack. On a non-Stalker, you have Blood Thirst putting you at 5 stacks (and causing a lockout when you consume them).

 

I'm not sure what's 'broken' about Hemorrhage. It appears to work fine for me.

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The biggest problem with Hemo is that it is a stack consumer without enough return when compared to keeping the stacks.  Generally speaking it is going to be better to grab Zapp/MB and use that instead of Hemo.  This means the only stack consumer is RF, which is 200% worth using at 5 stacks because it is not just a damage bonus, it is a radius bonus as well.  The radius increase is what really pushes RF @5 stacks over the top.

 

IIRC, there is also a thing where DoTs that are flagged "Cancel On Miss" do not count when calculating Critical Hit damage.  Memory is fuzzy on details of that though.

 

BT's damage bonus is small. ~41.5% for Scrappers/Stalkers and ~33% for Brutes/Tanks.  This means it is generally better used to recover stacks than it is as a traditional BU power at the start of a volley.  Of course this gets clumsy if one is dropping Gaussian's in BT - which is why my last Savage was a Savage/Invuln so I could drop that in the toggle.

 

Leap (from range) builds 3 Stacks and triggers ATO2.  Savage is fast enough to then use, VS, MS, and trigger RF just before the ATO2's duration expires.  The two intermediary ST attacks have bumped stacks to 5, drop RF at max radius with the ATO buff still active.  Hit BT and immediately recover the stacks.

 

Finally.  When you're looking at Assault Hybrid.  Take Radial with Savage every time.  Thank me later.  For more info find Bopper's "What is Double-Hit" guide and our conversation about Savage Leap should only be a page or three deep.

Edited by InvaderStych
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"... And I'd kill to get away; I'd die to make my own way.  And I'd lose to celebrate;  I'd win to see the good days.  And I'll never stop the fighting, so bring to me your worst.

I'll never stop believing that I could rule the world one day ..."

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Last week or so, I started a Savage/Regen as a contrast to the Claws/Regen I played on Live.  Even though Savage lacks a lot of the soft mitigation prevalent on other sets, I am surprised at how effective the set feels at simply killing things.   I contrast this with my more recent Dark Melee experience, and Savage feels like it kills a lot faster.   My Sav/Regen is 40 and I just started running +3x0 with great results.   I am able to kill +3/4 minion spawns just using Reconstruction (and sometimes not needing Recon).  No Tough (I actually have it, but never turn it on), no Weave, no inspirations, no accolades (Wait..I might have Flames of Prometheus..not sure)   I will use Hasten if I have to cycle DP or IH, but 80% of the combats, I am running naked Sav/Regen

 

With the exception of running a fully slotting Shred with Overwhelming Fear, I only have IOs in attacks and defense....wait...I did add the 5% +DEF from Shield wall to MoG.

 

Quote

But, I am kinda curious about the best way to use the 'consumer' attacks Hemorrhage and Rending Flurry.

 

Yes.  I have had similar questions.  For /Regen, especially if I have clickies on cooldown, I tend to avoid Exhausted to leverage the +Recharge.   I am absolutely underutilizing BT as I tend to save it for Bosses and purple LTs for the +to hit.  But I am now realizing that I can use it as a weak +Recharge boost.

 

I also find Hemorrhage underwhelming.  I generally only use it on bosses.     

 

I have not quite understood Savage Leap.   If it's up and I have a clear path, I will start with it.  But it seems to have low accuracy, even double accuracy slotted.   I also don't use as part of any chain as i am under the impression it is not great in melee. 

 

Quote

 

How is everyone else working with/around the inherent weird mechanics of the set?

You know, it's interesting that others also perceive the mechanics to be weird.  I think it's the odd trade-off of having to use up your stacks for a PBAoE that isn't super powerful or a ST DoT.  There is a feeling wanting to use Frenzy without burning the stacks, so you end up not using Frenzy in some cases where you might otherwise want to.   Early on, I would short Frenzy.  But, IIRC, using Hem or Frenzy still burns up your stacks....you just don't get Exhausted if you have less than 5.

 

Regarding Hem, I am not sold on this power.   DoT is the worst of all damage delivery methods, so it needs to be more powerful when balanced against Endo/Recharge.   The main problem, I think, with Hem is that there isn't enough feedback for the player on the benefit.  Contrast that with Midnight Grasp which crits upfront and can one-shot a target if used late in a chain. 

 

The other odd thing, for me, with Savage is all the DoT can be hard to optimize.  Early on, I would definitely waste attacks on a mob that was going to die from Bleed.   Now, I have more intuition on whether I need to follow up an attack.  But I do love seeing the occasional runner drop on the way out.

 

In summary, I think Savage is a great set to play despite its lack of utility.   I love the animations.  The enduro discount is a great quality of life benefit for many sets leveling up, but admittedly by 50 it's almost pointless unless you can leverage not having to proc for endo or choose Set IO's that forgo recovery.  But at 50, I don't recall seeing any scrappers ever run out of endurance sans debuff.    

 

If there is one thing special about Savage I think it's the  stacking +Recharge.   I say this because of the "I win" equation: Time it takes to kill foes - Time it takes foes to kill you >0

 

For sets with cooldown mitigation like /Regen.  +Recharge works both sides of the operator.   I'm not aware of any other scrapper primaries that offer +Recharge.

 

 

 

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The AT I felt I had more success with Savage was on a Brute. But though it did okay and had about the same times on a pylon than Claws, and though I was doing fine solo, it was teaming that I felt its limitations.

 

There was a lot of feeling I was flailing my arms while the mob's HP did not budge. Then all of a sudden the DoTs would pile up and the HP would evaporate. But in a team people would just come over and hit the mob.

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Savage is pretty high damage on a brute.  It's mediocre on a scrapper.  This is one of those cases where the DoT being affected by fury, but not multiplied by a crit, makes a big difference.

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I'm really glad I asked this now, as there are a lot of great thoughts and comments here in the answers.

 

Pretty sure that Hemorrhage isn't broken anymore; there are numerous bug fixes in the patch notes at the end of 2021. That's not to say that it hit's like a truck, it surely doesn't... and the DOT/crits thing mentioned above is a bit of a sad face.

 

The information about the best use of Blood Thirst - to get the Frenzy stack back after consuming it - is golden though!

 

And I appreciate the advice regarding Assault Radial.

 

Despite a few nitpicky issues I'd recommend any non-minmaxer to give it a whirl on a scrapper. The play experience is pretty pleasing if you like that scrapper blender playstyle, which I personally prefer over the big hitting sluggers.

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2 hours ago, Metatheory said:

I'm really glad I asked this now, as there are a lot of great thoughts and comments here in the answers.

 

Pretty sure that Hemorrhage isn't broken anymore; there are numerous bug fixes in the patch notes at the end of 2021. That's not to say that it hit's like a truck, it surely doesn't... and the DOT/crits thing mentioned above is a bit of a sad face.

 

The information about the best use of Blood Thirst - to get the Frenzy stack back after consuming it - is golden though!

 

And I appreciate the advice regarding Assault Radial.

 

Despite a few nitpicky issues I'd recommend any non-minmaxer to give it a whirl on a scrapper. The play experience is pretty pleasing if you like that scrapper blender playstyle, which I personally prefer over the big hitting sluggers.

 

Hemmho isn't broken. It's just undertuned and mathematically better to span the first three attacks instead. It can still be used by those who like it though, it just has no benefits.

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6 hours ago, Metatheory said:

I'm really glad I asked this now, as there are a lot of great thoughts and comments here in the answers.

 

Pretty sure that Hemorrhage isn't broken anymore; there are numerous bug fixes in the patch notes at the end of 2021. That's not to say that it hit's like a truck, it surely doesn't... and the DOT/crits thing mentioned above is a bit of a sad face.

 

Hemorrhage isn't broken -- it was broken on Stalkers for a while, and that made it good for Stalkers.  Now it's just pretty bad for everyone.

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3 hours ago, aethereal said:

 

Hemorrhage isn't broken -- it was broken on Stalkers for a while, and that made it good for Stalkers.  Now it's just pretty bad for everyone.

 

Gotta love how the fix to Hemmo was making it as bad for Stalkers as it is for everyone else 😄

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7 hours ago, Sovera said:

 

Hemmho isn't broken. It's just undertuned and mathematically better to span the first three attacks instead. It can still be used by those who like it though, it just has no benefits.

The single target attacks (for Scrappers, non-critical/critical values):

Maiming 75.29/130.27 dpa

Savage 61.67/106.70 dpa

Vicious 83.43/166.86 dpa

Hemo (4 stack) 73.90/146.39 dpa

Hemo (5 stack) 90.04/162.53 dpa

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14 minutes ago, Hjarki said:

The single target attacks (for Scrappers, non-critical/critical values):

Maiming 75.29/130.27 dpa

Savage 61.67/106.70 dpa

Vicious 83.43/166.86 dpa

Hemo (4 stack) 73.90/146.39 dpa

Hemo (5 stack) 90.04/162.53 dpa

 

You bring no context. Are you saying Hemmo is actually good or are you saying that it's bad?

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1 hour ago, Hjarki said:

The single target attacks (for Scrappers, non-critical/critical values):

Maiming 75.29/130.27 dpa

Savage 61.67/106.70 dpa

Vicious 83.43/166.86 dpa

 

I don't think you're calculating this right.  It looks like you've got something mildly wrong with the base damage (I calculate 80 DPA for Vicious Slash), but then you're doubling the damage for the crit, and the crits don't fully double the damage because they don't double the bleed damage.  So I get 140.987 DPA for Vicious Slash on crit.

 

1 hour ago, Hjarki said:

Hemo (4 stack) 73.90/146.39 dpa

Hemo (5 stack) 90.04/162.53 dpa

 

Hemo potentially has the highest DPA of Savage Melee attacks, but to get it above Vicious, you have to blow your blood frenzy wad and suffer through lockout, which means you don't get that damage very often, and there's an opportunity cost in terms of using your AoE.  And of course it's over a five second DoT.  Meanwhile, use it with less than 5 blood frenzy and you don't get particularly great damage, you still have to rebuild your blood frenzy from zero, and it's still over five seconds.

 

As a Stalker, you can at least use your mostly-controllable crits to be very likely to crit with hemo and thus get your crit damage all up front instead of over the DoT.  But a scrapper can't predictably do that.

 

It's not like...  the worst attack in the world.  But it's awkward and even if you use it optimally you aren't that much better off than using your ordinary three ST attacks.

Edited by aethereal
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1 hour ago, aethereal said:

 

I don't think you're calculating this right.  It looks like you've got something mildly wrong with the base damage (I calculate 80 DPA for Vicious Slash), but then you're doubling the damage for the crit, and the crits don't fully double the damage because they don't double the bleed damage.  So I get 140.987 DPA for Vicious Slash on crit.

 

 

Hemo potentially has the highest DPA of Savage Melee attacks, but to get it above Vicious, you have to blow your blood frenzy wad and suffer through lockout, which means you don't get that damage very often, and there's an opportunity cost in terms of using your AoE.  And of course it's over a five second DoT.  Meanwhile, use it with less than 5 blood frenzy and you don't get particularly great damage, you still have to rebuild your blood frenzy from zero, and it's still over five seconds.

 

As a Stalker, you can at least use your mostly-controllable crits to be very likely to crit with hemo and thus get your crit damage all up front instead of over the DoT.  But a scrapper can't predictably do that.

 

It's not like...  the worst attack in the world.  But it's awkward and even if you use it optimally you aren't that much better off than using your ordinary three ST attacks.

I mistakenly left the DoT in for the critical on Vicious. It should be 83.43/144.37 dpa.

 

Vicious Slash deals 112.6107 damage, plus another 20.2699 per tick up to 4 times (cancelable) @ 75% chance in 1.848 arcanatime. That would be (112.6107 + 20.2699*(0.75+0.75^2+0.75^3+0.75^4))/1.848 = 83.4306 dpa.

 

 

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Ah, the difference in our calculations was that I was doing three DoT ticks, not four.  I think you're right.  I always forget how this works, I was interpreting "every 1.0s for 3.1s (75%t chance) after 1.0s."  I always want the "after 1.0 seconds" to eat one of the seconds of the duration (that is, for it to start the duration immediately, but not to do anything until 1s of the duration to have passed).  But I believe what it actually means is "don't start the 3.1s duration for a second, then do ticks at 0, 1.0, 2.0, and 3.0," so you're correct.

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This is a somewhat random post, but I thought people might be interested in Brute vs Scrapper damage and why Savage is a better Brute set than a Scrapper set.  I'm going to focus on Vicious Slash, but the same basic lessons redound throughout the Savage set.

 

Baseline for Comparisons

 

So the thing about Savage is it has this DoT component that's unusual.  To understand how unusual it is, let's first compare Scrappers and Brutes for a power somewhat similar to Vicious Slash, but without the DoT component.  I'll use Soaring Dragon from the Katana set.

 

On a Brute, at level 50, Soaring Dragon does a base 75.0739 damage.  It has a 1.584 second arcanatime cast, so its Arcana DPA is 47.4 base.  It seems reasonably commonly accepted that Brutes can fairly easily attain and maintain an 80 Fury, so that's +160% damage, and you can get +95% damage enhancement fairly easily on a power, so call it a total of +255% damage and you get 266.5123 damage and 168.2527 DPA.

 

Scrappers are more complicated.  On a Scrapper, Soaring Dragon does a base 112.6107 damage.  Same cast time, so its Arcana DPA is 71.1 base.  Per assumptions above, we give it +95% damage enhancement and get 219.5909 damage and 138.6305 DPA, but that's before crits.

 

Back in the old days, before ATOs, you could fairly reasonably say, "Okay, well, you have a 10% crit rate (against non-minions), so basically scrapper damage averages 10% higher."  (ie, if 90% of the time you do X damage and 10% of the time you do 2X damage, then your total damage is .9X + .1 * 2X = 1.1 X).  Soaring Dragon has "normal" crits (that is to say, they do double damage), so in the pre-ATO days, it was reasonable to call their expected damage 241.5500 and DPA 152.4937.  You will note that that means that their damage is slightly under the Brute damage that we note above, and this is why there was a long period of time on Live where Scrappers were considered just basically inferior to Brutes: lower damage, lower hp, lower resist cap, and Brutes get taunt auras in every armor.

 

But ATOs changed things.

 

Okay, first of all the ATO1, this is simple.  It (with the Superior version) raises the non-minion crit rate of Scrappers to 16% instead of 10%.  If you only slot ATO1, then we just redo the same calculation above with a 16% crit rate instead of a 10% crit rate.  So now your total damage is .84X + .16 * 2X = 1.16X.  That means expected damage is 254.7254 and DPA 160.8114.  This still leaves you behind Brutes, but erases more than half of the deficit.

 

ATO2 isn't simple.  The Superior ATO2 gives you a 3 PPM chance to 3.25 seconds of +50% crit rate (we'll assume you're also slotting ATO1).  Ooof.  Okay, so first of all let's pretend that PPM worked the way it was originally imagined to.  So you got three activations of it per minute.  That means each minute you'd have 9.75 seconds of +50% PPM, and the other 50.25 seconds would be normal crit rate.  So that's roughly this, if X is your damage:  9.75 * 1.66 * X / 60 + 50.25 * 1.16 * X / 60 = 1.24125X damage.  So if we plug that in with Soaring Dragon, we get 272.5671 damage and 172.0752 DPA.  We are now mildly ahead of Brutes.

 

But we all know that you can do better than 3 procs per minute.  Since PPM ignores global recharge, it's simple enough to get much better than 3 PPM.  It gets pretty complicated to calculate the actual uptime of the ATO2.  A really optimal build might have it fire 7 or 8 times per minute, and also try to time it so that some of its non-uptime is a no-op, eaten by the animation time of powers.  Getting super into this is overly complicated, let's just say that you can get 6 procs per minute and calculate it by how much of the minute you're in its effect:  19.5 seconds in effect and 40.5 seconds out of it yields a blended damage multiplier of 1.3225, which in turn means that our damage becomes 290.4089 and our DPA is 183.3389.

 

And that's roughly the current situation: Scrappers have a significant damage advantage over Brutes.  Basically, they reach parity with/very slight superiority to Brute damage if they slot both superior ATOs at all, and their damage advantage increases significantly as they use global recharge to improve PPM on their ATO.

 

But Getting Back to Savage

 

Now instead of Soaring Dragon, let's look at Vicious Slash.  Vicious Slash has the same base damage as Soaring Dragon (75.0739 on Brutes, 112.6107 on Scrappers), but it does up to 4 ticks of DoT that do 13.5133 damage (for Brutes) or 20.2699 (for Scrappers).  This DoT damage is not doubled for Scrapper crits, but it is affected by Fury.

 

So for Brutes:  Damage including average performance from the DoTs is 102.7867, DPA is 55.6.  Assuming 95% damage enhancement and 80 fury, we get 364.8928 damage and 197.4528 DPA.  You will note that the DoTs are significant!  Vicious Slash does a lot more damage than Soaring Eagle!

 

For Scrappers, our non-crit damage is 154.1798 (base) and DPA is 83.4.  Our crit damage is 266.7905  and crit DPA is 144.367 (note that it's not double what the base damage is).  With 95% damage enhancement, we get 300.6506 damage and 162.6897 DPA (non-crit) and 520.2405 damage and 281.5154 DPA (crit).

 

Okay, so our four Scrapper scenarios:

 

1.  No ATOs: 10% crit rate:  .9 * 300.6506 + .1 * 520.2405 = 322.6096 damage and 174.5722 DPA (worse than Brutes)

2.  Just ATO1: 16% crit rate:  .84 * 300.6506 + .16 * 520.2405 = 335.7850 damage and 181.7018 DPA (worse than Brutes)

3.  AT01 + 3 procs per minute of ATO2:  24.125% crit rate:  .75875 * 300.6506 + .24125 * 520.2405 = 353.6267 damage and 191.3564 DPA (still worse than Brutes)

4.  ATO1 + 6 procs per minute of ATO2:  32.225% crit rate:  .67775 * 300.6506 + .32225 * 520.2405 = 371.4134 damage and 200.9813 DPA (essentially the same as Brutes)

 

So to sum up:  With Savage Melee, the damage advantage that Scrappers usually enjoy over Brutes is substantially diminished shading to non-existent.

 

Way way way TL;DR

 

With other sets, Scrappers, at level 50 and with the ATOs slotted, enjoy a substantial damage advantage over Brutes.  With Savage, they don't.  Brutes have better HP, better resist caps, and taunt auras in every armor.  They also get better damage from damage auras.  They're a better choice for Savage.

Edited by aethereal
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And one real quick addendum that I don't think is super material, but also biases towards Brutes instead of Scrappers.  The least-known effect of Blood Thirst, the Build Up replacement for Savage, is that it changes the DoTs from Savage from "75% chance, cancel on miss" to "all four ticks guaranteed."  Since Brutes get Fury onto their DoTs, this advantages Brutes over Scrappers.

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On 6/16/2022 at 12:49 PM, Blackjoy said:

I have not quite understood Savage Leap.   If it's up and I have a clear path, I will start with it.  But it seems to have low accuracy, even double accuracy slotted.   I also don't use as part of any chain as i am under the impression it is not great in melee. 

 

 

Savage Leap is fine for damage in melee, it just doesn't build as much Blood Frenzy when you use it close to your target. But if you have it loaded with procs (I have the +Crit proc in there) it's fine to use it any time it's up.

What's even better is if you have Combat Teleport to TP yourself backwards and then Leap back for the +Frenzy bonus. I'll sometimes just Combat Jump backwards and Leap forwards again, but usually just Leap in place for the Procs.

 

I really liked my Savage/Bio but re-rolled as a Brute to get more hit points into Bio.

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