knockback HOW can we stop mobs being blasted into walls?

[Herotu]

I want knockback to be more acceptable in CoH. I love the mechanic and would like to see enemies being sent flying all over the place because fun.

 

BUT we all know the main problem, and it's not that we like herding and efficiency.

It's enemies getting stuck in the geometry in such a way that;

1. they can't get out, and,
2. we can't "arrest" them.

 

So what can we do to either;

1. stop them getting blasted into the geometry, or,
2. give them a way to get back into the regular playing area?

 

[Herotu]

I'll go first! 

 

My idea is that you can have an irresistible ability that teleports the nearest foe to your location. This could be problematic on some events where NPCs have to be in certain positions, like Lord Recluse, so it should not work on those events. Does that negate the proposal? I fear that it might.

[Pyriold]

I disagree about your perception of the main problem. Mobs getting stuck is annoying, but it's not happening very often. Whereas mobs flying around so that all the AEs cant maximize their target count does happen every single encounter when a bad knockback user is present.

 

I do like knockback from a purely aestetic view, it can be a lot of fun for the user of those knockback powers. Feels powerfull and nice. And in a laid back team, chatting along and taking their time, it can be totally no problem.

 

But when people are going after XP and want to level quickly (that's most of the time i think), knockbacks simply slow everything down a lot if not done properly. Suddenly every other mob needs to be arrested with single target powers. And that's the reason why i wouldn't use excessive knockbacks in a PUG team, of course it might be totally ok if you team with friends. It's just not very polite to prioritize your fun flinging stuff around above the teams desire to level quickly.

[Erratic1]

Solution 1: Knockback->Knockdown enhancements

Solution 2: Don't use knockback

[Herotu]

5 minutes ago, Pyriold said:

But when people are going after XP and want to level quickly (that's most of the time i think), knockbacks simply slow everything down a lot if not done properly. Suddenly every other mob needs to be arrested with single target powers. And that's the reason why i wouldn't use excessive knockbacks in a PUG team, of course it might be totally ok if you team with friends. It's just not very polite to prioritize your fun flinging stuff around above the teams desire to level quickly.

If that's the case, limit yourself you certain powersets or use the KB->KD enhancement, your problem can be solved, the geometry problem cannot. Yet.

[Herotu]

2 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

Solution 1: Knockback->Knockdown enhancements

Solution 2: Don't use knockback

This doesn't solve the geometry problem.

[Erratic1]

5 minutes ago, Herotu said:

This doesn't solve the geometry problem.

 

You've seen knocked down characters get stuck in geometry? If that occurs, it happens so infrequently I have no memory of such as opposed to very clear memories of knockback doing so.

 

[Sovera]

Fortunately it has not happened to me to a point a mission has to be redone. Either pbaoes or trying to 'nose' closer while queing attacks eventually works.

 

But since a vocal minority likes it and the devs adhere to the cottage rule the simplest solution is out. And yes, just slotting an IO would fix it, but we are talking about people who are either lazy, uninformed, or part of that vocal minority, and now 'lo, mob stuck, should have slotted the IO, hindsight.

[Herotu]

7 minutes ago, Sovera said:

But since a vocal minority likes it and the devs adhere to the cottage rule the simplest solution is out. And yes, just slotting an IO would fix it, but we are talking about people who are either lazy, uninformed, or part of that vocal minority, and now 'lo, mob stuck, should have slotted the IO, hindsight.

Choosing to NOT slot the IO isn't laziness, it's a decision to prioritise fun over the risk of geometry problems.

[Erratic1]

4 minutes ago, Herotu said:

Choosing to NOT slot the IO isn't laziness, it's a decision to prioritise fun over the risk of geometry problems.

 

Choosing to NOT stop at red lights isn't thoughtlessness, it's a decision to priortise fun over the risk of collision problems. 

😈

[Techwright]

1 hour ago, Herotu said:

BUT we all know the main problem, and it's not that we like herding and efficiency.

If I may, adding this line is why there are sidetracks to this thread.  I suggest we focus exclusively on what you desire: the removal of stuckage in hopes of at least somewhat better KB PR.

 

1. How common is this problem in your experience?  Like some others mention, I do see it, but very rarely, and even more rarely is there a case where we have to either call for a GM or reboot the mission.  YMMV, so let us know what statistics you've collected.

2. Assuming you have AOE damaging powers on the team, does it ever have a case where the wielders of such powers cannot deal with the issue?

3. Have you and your team ever pulled back far enough that the stuck character feels obligated to follow?  I actually had that happen two nights ago running a DFB.  We pulled back, and the character dislodged to come after us.  But that is a tactic I've used more than a few times over the many years.

 

 

As to playing KB, I do have characters with KB, including my main for years, a energy/energy blaster, though I personally choose to run them in teams with the KB-to-KD conversions.  I make friends that way.  I've only recently realized how to setup a second profile, and I'm building one for solo play where KB will have free reign.  As to the use of KB in a group, which I did for quite a while before I learned of the converters, it is an unwritten rule-of-thumb that if you play KB in a group, you learn to play your character better, and line up the shots to aid control, rather than removing it.  To that end I took hover and flight and zip around the battlefield.  Single Target shots are aimed to throw the NPC into a near wall or obstacle, not just willy-nilly.  AOE and cone are used at the edge of the fight and are aimed to knock opponents towards the melee fighters, rather than running up next to the tank and blasting away.  I do admit however, that the one thing that's always baffled me is a tank gathering everyone up then using an AOE with KB.  I'm not sure what benefit that brings to anyone.

 

[Erratic1]

3 minutes ago, Techwright said:

I do admit however, that the one thing that's always baffled me is a tank gathering everyone up then using an AOE with KB.  I'm not sure what benefit that brings to anyone.

 

Do you see that often? Most Tankers want things nearby as most of their powers are melee ranged and a lot of Tanker secondary sets have no AoE KB powers to begin with.

 

My most recent Tanker (Rad/Claws) uses Shockwave, but that is mostly knocking foes into corners or up against walls. 

[Marshal_General]

1 hour ago, Erratic1 said:

 

Choosing to NOT stop at red lights isn't thoughtlessness, it's a decision to priortise fun over the risk of collision problems. 

😈

Well people should just slot their brakes with a stopping IO. 😋

[Erratic1]

1 minute ago, Marshal_General said:

Well people should just slot their brakes with a stopping IO. 😋

 

But they would have to give up the six-piece Nitrous Injection bonus. 😄

[Luminara]

Terrain deformation so the wall is destroyed or damaged when something hits it, thus removing the geometry in which critters can become stuck.  But that would require an engine overhaul, if not replacement.  So...

 

Pseudo-pets interspersed behind walls and above ceilings, each with a pulsing low magnitude Repel PBAoE.  If anything goes deep enough into a wall to become stuck, the pseudo-pets push it back into the proper geometry.  That would be the immediately possible solution.  Bit of work placing the pseudo-pets manually in every map, but one of the HC team could probably whip up an alteration to the bacon system to automatically place the pseudo-pets.

[Marshal_General]

Each mob could have code that detects when it is stuck and each map could have reset points to move that mob to.

[Sovera]

34 minutes ago, Luminara said:

Terrain deformation so the wall is destroyed or damaged when something hits it, thus removing the geometry in which critters can become stuck.  But that would require an engine overhaul, if not replacement.  So...

 

Pseudo-pets interspersed behind walls and above ceilings, each with a pulsing low magnitude Repel PBAoE.  If anything goes deep enough into a wall to become stuck, the pseudo-pets push it back into the proper geometry.  That would be the immediately possible solution.  Bit of work placing the pseudo-pets manually in every map, but one of the HC team could probably whip up an alteration to the bacon system to automatically place the pseudo-pets.

 

Mmmh, bacon...

[Troo]

3 hours ago, Herotu said:

My idea is that you can have an irresistible ability that teleports the nearest foe to your location. This could be problematic on some events where NPCs have to be in certain positions, like Lord Recluse, so it should not work on those events. Does that negate the proposal? I fear that it might.

 

Teleport Foe, Pets, and/or AoE can an do solve these limited issues. Also /petition alerts GMs to assist.

 

I have never seen a high level enemy knocked into geometry.

 

I have seen plenty of max target ambushes get stuck, but they are typically easy to get at

[Erratic1]

3 minutes ago, Krimson said:

Maybe just have anything knocked out of the map area die. If they disappear and are not seen again, it's probably more immersive than the occasional enemy being pushed from out of a wall. 

 

Most often they are not knocked off the map area but are partially embedded in terrain--you can see them but are prevented from attacking them because the terrain blocks how the game calculates your line of sight.

[Akalabeth]

Uhm... though I've never had to try it, I think if people used the Self-Destruct power at the wall as a last resort instead of calling a gm I think it could work. 😞  It's only 100k at he P2W vendor so affordable to everyone really. 😞 

[Oklahoman]

Some of the discussion here looks like it really belongs over here:

 

It's a problem when a DFB is stuck because no one has a way to damage a bad guy stuck in a wall. It's downright infuriating when Tyrant gets taken out too quickly and Baby Tyrant falls out from under the earth. GMs can't do anything about the latter in-game, and my experience is that it's difficult to summon a GM for something like a DFB.

 

For Magisterium, if there could be some kind of "beacon" a player could hit in the bowl once every 5 minutes that would TP Baby Tyrant to them, maybe that would solve that. Or, just remove Baby Tyrant entirely and have everything finish after taking down Tyrant.

[TheZag]

It pulled the /jranger picture for the link on the KB > KD thread,  i love it.

[SeraphimKensai]

Regarding geometry alone....

I've had instances where using a powexec_location target macro has spawned things under the geometry like oil slick, tar patch, etc. Which seems odd that that occurs, but it does when using such a macro intermittently.

 

We've all had mobs get stuck in walls or ceilings before as well. We've all had escort NPCs get caught in cave map walls as well.

 

And for the more old school PvP community I remember many a day where someone would hide inside a geometric tear in the woods to try and not get killed, until they realized that most of us knew how to get back there as well.

 

There is clearly issues with some geometry and although it's not widespread it's still noticable, whether or not this can be resolved via a simple fix to address all geometry related issues, or it has to continue to be addressed on a case by case basis I'm not sure.

 

Regarding knock back...you may have seen my posts in various knock back related suggestions to add bonus damage to distance that a target is knocked back, as it seems kinda silly for a game involving superheroes and supervillains to not have mobs getting knocked on their asses.

[Erratic1]

22 minutes ago, Krimson said:

That happens in farms all the time. On my Fire/Rad Tanker, no problem. Just stand at the wall and drop a burn patch. I just think that maybe making the situation a defeat condition might be easier than say spawning pseudopets to push them back out. 

 

Can only drop a burn patch if you have it and not infrequently a group is lacking such due to composition or levels (DFB with geometry issues is a real pain).

 

I do agree that wall pseudopets is probably not a good idea because that is processing taken up for events which mostly do not occur. Same as goes adding code to mobs for them to check if they are stuck in a wall. Better to my mind would be a system command which, when issued by a player, checks a radius around them for potentially stuck mobs and dislodges them. That way it is only being invoked as necessary.

[catsi563]

Blast them into the ceiling *nod nod*