issue 27 Focused Feedback: Attack Typing Adjustments

[Super Atom]

10 hours ago, Myrmidon said:

As far as the high-end builds go, there’s always that pesky inspiration tray that everyone except @America's Angelforgets about.

 

Inspirations should have a cooldown and never give more than 10% of anything as a cap.

 

death to inspirations

 

also the way this change is described makes the change sound more impactful than it is

Edited July 13, 2022 by Super Atom

[Myrmidon]

30 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

 

Inspirations should have a cooldown and never give more than 10% of anything as a cap.

 

death to inspirations

I advocate only a single five-tray of Inspirations, however, I doubt we would ever see that.

 

31 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

also the way this change is described makes the change sound more impactful than it is

 

Fair enough. It was tested as much as could be with the players available, so a wider testing pool will hopefully pick up any more discrepancies.

 

 

 

 

[Enamel_32]

12 hours ago, kingsmidgens said:

The only justification I could see would be overly complicating things by allowing you to selectively defend against certain damage types within the same power but that's not happening any time soon and doesn't really make sense in all contexts, either.  For instance an Electric Punch - you ignore the smashing completely, but the electricity still zaps you.  Ice Blast - You're impervious to cold, but the smashing still hits.  Resistance basically already does this anyway, for the damage you do take.

 

This is where my head went immediately, and while it's complicated it might just be the most consistent way to handle defense/damage and I think it opens some interesting doors. The currently proposed change is simply taking the "lenient" defense calculation and inverting it to be "punitive" by favoring the more exotic damage types.

 

Though in all fairness, it's being reported that this isn't too large of a change overall. I think it's still worth exploring that as an alternative.

 

What strikes me most about this is that the defense calculation apparently cannot be changed in a vacuum. Instead, we see that various NPC attacks have to be tuned to fit this new calculation, altering ratios of the damage types and even swapping out damage types to retroactively make sense with the new model. We're not even applying this to player attacks at this stage, though it sounds like that's might be planned for a later date. It all seems just a bit off to me, a lot of work for what's billed as a small change.

 

There's a lot of speculation here. I'd love to hear an official take on WHY this change is being made, the thought process behind it, and what it enables going forward. What's the goal for this?

Is it because we want to reign in high S/L defense builds that IOs have enabled? Are some defense sets a little too strong? Are ALL defense sets too strong, and we want to make support sets like Empathy more relevant? Are certain NPC groups too weak or over-performing? Is this more of a philosophical change, not necessarily related to balance? Is it just a stepping stone on the way to something more meaningful?

[Marbing]

This change doesn’t have as far reaching affects as you think. It’s been tested. Go test it yourself on brainstorm. S/L is still going to mitigate a ton of stuff. This is a very positive change imo. 
 

A lot of people are looking at this the wrong way. S/L defense vastly over performs to the point where other defense types are nearly useless. This is just tuning it down a peg to buff the importance of a more diverse defense spectrum.

[Doughboy]

Tested this against +4/x8 Council radio missions with a level 50 WP scrapper and level 50 DP/martial blaster.  The scrapper is soft-capped to smashing/lethal and melee defense. Has 43% defense vs fire/cold. The blaster is soft capped versus smashing/lethal and energy. He's also close to soft cap versus fire/cold and, thanks to Hail of Bullets, is close to the soft cap versus melee defense.

 

Didn't notice much difference from the live servers. Testing has negated the concerns I initially had after reading the patch notes. 

[Doughboy]

18 hours ago, Ironblade said:

No, but the overwhelming majority used in combat do.

There are concussion grenades, which kind of look like a spray can - i.e. a relatively flimsy casing.  But most grenades that the military (and presumably terrorists, villain groups, etc) use are fragmentation grenades.  These are characterized by a heavy metal casing designed to produce shrapnel.  The classic one that most people would recognize is the 'pineapple' grenade.  Here's a picture of the WW2 U.S. military Mk 2 that you've probably seen in a jillion war movies.

 

 

Agreed. Standard grenades should be smashing/lethal, not fire.  Smashing from the explosion, lethal from the fragmentation.

 

 

[dom9630]

21 hours ago, TotalThunder said:

 

The comment wasn't about squishies being useless. The comment was about soloing as them.

 

But you have outlined another problem of this change, as mentioned by another previous post, even if it's not as dramatic as previously preceived. Forcing you to bring specific support by nerfing something else. Nerfing individual survivability just artificially makes support more valueable. It's a bandaid solution (not that I'm blaming the dev team for looking for easy outs) to the bigger problem of game difficulty.

 

To be considered:

 

I tested different blaster builds at +4 x8, in theory using mids. Here is a list of builds for reference.

 

Beam rifle/plant

Fire/energy

Water/Martial

Electric/Martial

 

+4 x8 solo is still very much possible, but the biggest loser here seems to be epic/patron pools. You can soft-cap these 'exotic' type damages (NRG/NEG/COLD/FIRE) - HOWEVER

 

In order to do so, it's basically become mandatory you go with Ice Mastery or Black Scorpion pools to get there.

Additionally, in order to get to soft-capped on different damage types you will have to sacrifice that sweet damage and recharge set bonuses - some builds more than others.

 

Similar issues with damage resist secondaries for scrappers/stalkers/sentinels  per theory-crafting in mids.

 

I look forward to testing these builds on Brainstorm when I can dedicate time to playing CoH again, but I'm still feeling pessimistic about these changes.

 

 

 

Edited July 13, 2022 by dom9630

[KaizenSoze]

7 minutes ago, dom9630 said:

 

To be considered:

 

I tested different blaster builds at +4 x8, in theory using mids. Here is a list of builds for reference.

 

Beam rifle/plant

Fire/energy

Water/Martial

Electric/Martial

 

+4 x8 solo is still very much possible, but the biggest loser here seems to be epic/patron pools. You can soft-cap these 'exotic' type damages (NRG/NEG/COLD/FIRE) - HOWEVER

 

In order to do so, it's basically become mandatory you go with Ice Mastery or Black Scorpion pools to get there.

Additionally, in order to get to soft-capped on different damage types you will have to sacrifice that sweet damage and recharge set bonuses - some builds more than others.

 

Similar issues with damage resist secondaries for scrappers/stalkers/sentinels  per theory-crafting in mids.

 

I look forward to testing these builds on Brainstorm when I can dedicate time to playing CoH again, but I'm still feeling pessimistic about these changes.

 

You'll be fine with your existing builds. Already in this thread folks have tested their existing s/l soft capped builds w/o any changes and reporting that things are fine. Maybe a bit harder, nothing major.

 

It is a sub-subset of attacks that got modified. Usually, at worst a few mobs in a spawn will have any of the modified attacks. And it will only usually be one attack. Ice thorn caster's ice sword for example.

 

Honestly, at this point I think the aggro changes will have a way bigger impact than these changes.

 

One exception would be Lord Recluse in MLTF. He is quite a bit nastier, because of his toxic attacks. Nasty enough that the devs made adjustments.

 

Please, if you find a mob group that is ripping your existing builds apart. Then post the details here.

 

Unless you can find an entire spawn of level 54 Ice Thorn casters and try melee them with a s/l capped blaster. It's not turning out to be a huge change.

[Archmonoth]

As far as the meta goes, positional defense might move up in priority.

 

I see the issue, not with nerf/buff what with the choices that people make on what mobs to fight. 

Have high s/l then do freaks/council.

High aoe/fire? fire mobs (farms)

High energy? then do rikti. 

 

People will gravitate towards what they are strongest against, or what they built for, like with farms. I see positional defense becoming more of the preference for generalists, and s/l still being very useful since it is a very common damage source. 

 

For the record I would also be in favor of a steeper defense curve, perhaps by an addition 5% for soft cap, it would be a smoother transition to incarnate soft cap of 59%

Edited July 13, 2022 by Archmonoth

[dom9630]

13 minutes ago, KaizenSoze said:

You'll be fine with your existing builds. Already in this thread folks have tested their existing s/l soft capped builds w/o any changes and reporting that things are fine. Maybe a bit harder, nothing major.

 

It is a sub-subset of attacks that got modified. Usually, at worst a few mobs in a spawn will have any of the modified attacks. And it will only usually be one attack. Ice thorn caster's ice sword for example.

 

Honestly, at this point I think the aggro changes will have a way bigger impact than these changes.

 

One exception would be Lord Recluse in MLTF. He is quite a bit nastier, because of his toxic attacks. Nasty enough that the devs made adjustments.

 

Please, if you find a mob group that is ripping your existing builds apart. Then post the details here.

 

Unless you can find an entire spawn of level 54 Ice Thorn casters and try melee them with a s/l capped blaster. It's not turning out to be a huge change.

As an update since I have had some time off to do some missions on Brainstorm.

 

'You'll be fine', sure. This is still a net nerf to blasters. 

 

I don't know why everyone points to CoT cold dmg as the poster child as to why this is no big deal. 

 

Having tested several enemy groups at +4 x8 Bosses ON, this is what I've found.

 

CoT: Pretty much the same. (I guess?) frosties hit harder, but not a big change.

Arachnos: Went from tough to deal with to down right impossible if you get a Toxic Tarantula or Fortunata Mistress.

Carnies: Still not fun to solo, but that's always been the case.

Malta: Gunslingers(boss variant) are tougher, and MUCH harder on a S/L capped blaster versus a S/L/E/N/F/C capped blaster.

Council: Vamps and Galaxies suck on a S/L Capped blaster, just as easy as ever on S/L/E/N/F/C capped blaster.

Rikti: Easier(?) for some reason? Maybe since drones are prioritized with their exotic damage type instead of positional now? I'm not sure.

 

Keep in mind: I was using my elec/martial blaster since I had the most confidence in its survivability due to -end and having some regen on top of softcaps and a de-mezzer.

 

Some additional things I found in testing;

 

If you choose to go with a S/L/E/N/F/C defense build, you are inevitably going with scorpion shield/ice shield patron/epic. This is not going to be a change for a lot of people. But those thematic builds are going to have to take the hit. 

 

The 'kill them before they kill me' tactic is not something as reliable as it once was, especially on a S/L/E/N/F/C build since you are sacrificing dmg/recharge for survivability.

 

Tl;dr 

S/L capped blasters are not going to be able to solo the same content they used to.

Don't assume 'everything's fine' just because you found a level 54 minion that didn't stop you into dirt.

 

 

 

 

[EmperorSteele]

Maybe don't assume everything is awful because you DID get stomped into the dirt?

 

Like, if you're playing at -1/x1 and are still getting pasted, THAT would be bad. +4/x8 is actually a challenge now and carries risk now? GOOD!

[dom9630]

1 minute ago, EmperorSteele said:

Maybe don't assume everything is awful because you DID get stomped into the dirt?

 

Like, if you're playing at -1/x1 and are still getting pasted, THAT would be bad. +4/x8 is actually a challenge now and carries risk now? GOOD!

I never said everything is awful.

 

I said this is a net nerf to blasters.

 

And +4 x8 was already a challenge. Now it's even more of a challenge and requires a respec for certain content for changes (IMO) that feel unnecessary. 

[KaizenSoze]

4 minutes ago, dom9630 said:

Tl;dr 

S/L capped blasters are not going to be able to solo the same content they used to.

Don't assume 'everything's fine' just because you found a level 54 minion that didn't stop you into dirt.

 

 

 

 

Somebody cannot take a joke. I have repeatedly mentioned Toxic Tarantula as an issue.

 

Fortunata Mistresses are always an issue. I looked over their attacks, I don't even think their attacks even got changed.

 

What specific attacks do you think are the difference?

 

By the way blaster, Elec/Ice, I used the most is soft capped only in Energy and almost range. 48% Energy 43% Ranged 34% s/l.

[Marbing]

4 minutes ago, dom9630 said:

I said this is a net nerf to blasters.

Good, they are over performing anyways. 😃

 

[dom9630]

5 minutes ago, KaizenSoze said:

Somebody cannot take a joke. I have repeatedly mentioned Toxic Tarantula as an issue.

 

Fortunata Mistresses are always an issue. I looked over their attacks, I don't even think their attacks even got changed.

 

What specific attacks do you think are the difference?

 

By the way blaster, Elec/Ice, I used the most is soft capped only in Energy and almost range. 48% Energy 43% Ranged 34% s/l.

 

You're right, I missed the joke, that's my bad.

 

And I think it's all the attacks. Part of the reason why I feel council's vampyr suck more than they used to, is that you're not only taking more damage when they hit you more often, this also buffs their ability to -tohit you to death. With Fortunata's, my recharge (which when already running a slower recharge build to get to s/l/e-(and all the rest) defense build) really slows you down so that your mez-free button and attacks take twice as long to come up as they used to.

Edited July 13, 2022 by dom9630

[arcane]

3 minutes ago, Marbing said:

Good, they are over performing anyways. 😃

 

Facts

[Kanil]

the battle between "why tho" and  "it's not a big deal except for when it is because the game should be harder" rages on in this thread and i approve

 

i don't have any actual feedback because i aint playin anyways but i appreciate the clubhouse warriors and the random player warriors one and the same

 

actually i'm assuming this is gonna be used for some future hardmode shit where everything is functionally similar arachnoids or something like that and that'll be funny to see as well so sure why not

[Marbing]

I think though we are supposed to be providing feedback to devs and not one another. Let’s let the devs answer our questions before this turns into a flame war. 😃

[skoryy]

28 minutes ago, dom9630 said:

CoT: Pretty much the same. (I guess?) frosties hit harder, but not a big change.

Arachnos: Went from tough to deal with to down right impossible if you get a Toxic Tarantula or Fortunata Mistress.

Carnies: Still not fun to solo, but that's always been the case.

Malta: Gunslingers(boss variant) are tougher, and MUCH harder on a S/L capped blaster versus a S/L/E/N/F/C capped blaster.

 

So, mobs I didn't solo at +4/x8 on my blasters to begin with.

 

29 minutes ago, dom9630 said:

Council: Vamps and Galaxies suck on a S/L Capped blaster, just as easy as ever on S/L/E/N/F/C capped blaster.

 

My DP/Fire had nearly no problems at all with them.  My Rad/Atomic did, but she was down to 41 S/L due to Beta Decay fix which means she was taking nearly double the hits she was used to.

 

Again, not much did change there.  I'll see how Malta do on hero missions next, I'll prioritize Gunslingers after the initial nuke.

[dom9630]

4 minutes ago, Marbing said:

I think though we are supposed to be providing feedback to devs and not one another. Let’s let the devs answer our questions before this turns into a flame war. 😃

 

Considering how only about 100 people read the forum rules, I think even less made it to rule 5.

 

People like to reply to negative feedback by assuming people 'just want to be negative with knee-jerk reactions to bully the hard-working devs.'

I think the devs can understand that of course we are going to be super-critical of these changes, and that's not juxtaposed to us also appreciating the hard -volunteer- work they do for HC.

Edited July 13, 2022 by dom9630

[dom9630]

3 minutes ago, skoryy said:

 

So, mobs I didn't solo at +4/x8 on my blasters to begin with.

 

 

My DP/Fire had nearly no problems at all with them.  My Rad/Atomic did, but she was down to 41 S/L due to Beta Decay fix which means she was taking nearly double the hits she was used to.

 

Again, not much did change there.  I'll see how Malta do on hero missions next, I'll prioritize Gunslingers after the initial nuke.

 

I'll elaborate on the council by saying, I don't think they were especially more difficult. Just less fun to play against when I'm waiting for -tohit buffs to go away so I can tap out the last boss/lt from the mob. It's like waiting for carnies to come out of phase shift.

[skoryy]

4 minutes ago, dom9630 said:

 

I'll elaborate on the council by saying, I don't think they were especially more difficult. Just less fun to play against when I'm waiting for -tohit buffs to go away so I can tap out the last boss/lt from the mob. It's like waiting for carnies to come out of phase shift.

 

I haven't encountered that problem, though Sunbow does have 1.54x accuracy and the kismet bonus.

 

Also I don't get why this thread gets more attention than the aggro changes.  Running a hero mission and finding that's the real blaster smiter.  Two mobs in close proximity to each other?  Bring your insps.

[dom9630]

1 minute ago, skoryy said:

 

I haven't encountered that problem, though Sunbow does have 1.54x accuracy and the kismet bonus.

 

Also I don't get why this thread gets more attention than the aggro changes.  Running a hero mission and finding that's the real blaster smiter.  Two mobs in close proximity to each other?  Bring your insps.

 

I think the aggro cap has a view bugs that are causing it to act not as intended, so it's not really fair to evaluate it in its condition. But this is with little testing myself and a different thread.

 

I for one build to take max aggro at all times so I don't know if I'd be the right person that it'd affect in the first place.

 

And yeah, I'll have to test my characters with +acc. 

[Luminara]

43 minutes ago, dom9630 said:

Part of the reason why I feel council's vampyr suck more than they used to, is that you're not only taking more damage when they hit you more often, this also buffs their ability to -tohit you to death.

 

The only Council Vampyr power affected was Gravity Well, which lost its Smashing tag.

 

And doesn't debuff ToHit.

 

Found that Vamps' Shadow Punch lost its Smashing Tag.

 

43 minutes ago, dom9630 said:

With Fortunata's, my recharge (which when already running a slower recharge build to get to s/l/e-(and all the rest) defense build) really slows you down so that your mez-free button and attacks take twice as long to come up as they used to.

 

The only Fortunata power altered was Telekinetic Blast... which had its Psionic tag removed, not the Smashing tag.

 

You might want to run your tests again, since the results you posted can't be the result the damage type changes.

Edited July 13, 2022 by Luminara
Shadow Punch added

[KaizenSoze]

31 minutes ago, dom9630 said:

 

You're right, I missed the joke, that's my bad.

 

And I think it's all the attacks. Part of the reason why I feel council's vampyr suck more than they used to, is that you're not only taking more damage when they hit you more often, this also buffs their ability to -tohit you to death. With Fortunata's, my recharge (which when already running a slower recharge build to get to s/l/e-(and all the rest) defense build) really slows you down so that your mez-free button and attacks take twice as long to come up as they used to.

It's all good.

 

Let's talk specifics.

Council:

  Council Vamps use Dominate which only check Psionic defense. It's always been that way.

  You're right though, you are probably get hit more with -toHit negative energy attacks. I have always been obsessive about accuracy, so I probably didn't notice any issue.

 

Arachnos:

I have touched on that.

 

Malta:

Yes, I total see how those bosses got nastier! Gunslinger powers link.

I see that Explosive TIp, Incendiary Round, and Liquid Nitrogen Round are using non s/l defense.

 

Calling @Cobalt Arachne One of the Malta bosses, who was no walkover before, might have gotten too nice a buff from this change.

Edited July 13, 2022 by KaizenSoze
grammar and confirmation that those attacks are non s/l