issue 27 Focused Feedback: Ice Control Changes

[Bionic_Flea]

27 minutes ago, Carnifax said:

But then how would I be able to parse out that Arctic Air confused things 196 times.

 

I know you are joking, but if you look at the text block I added, there's 1 Confuse hidden among 9 Scares. 

 

You should add Scare to your logger.  I double-dog dare you!

[WindDemon21]

On 8/2/2022 at 7:29 PM, Captain Powerhouse said:

 

The initial internal test was done that way, and it was dimmed to be too good. The adjustment was meant to make the fear in Cold Snap to be equivalent in usability to Dark Control's Fearsome Stare without nerfing the current debuff area, therefore the dual area setup.  The set might still get further updates in the future, but its unlikely that Cold Snap will change much if at all from its current form.

For the cone sizes. What about as a taoe so you  can actually use it in melee.

 

Honestly I'd rather the fear tack on to flash freeze too and have it animate faster, and change shiver to a taoe without fear if it means we could use shiver in melee. The fact that it's a cone has always been the dumbest inconsistency with ice control and the desire to use the fear too will make this even worse.

 

These all in addition to FINALLY fixing the dumb rech/duration stats on shiver. Ie 30s is fine but it should last at least 30s as a taoe if not 45 or 60 (especially if it's remaining a cone). For goodness sake the blaster version has even remained better since conception besides the lower -rech value.

[WindDemon21]

18 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

 

I know you are joking, but if you look at the text block I added, there's 1 Confuse hidden among 9 Scares. 

 

You should add Scare to your logger.  I double-dog dare you!

I know it's completely separate but I always hoped there was an option to JUST view the procs log, ie not in damage delivered, healing delivered etc.

[Arcadio]

• Added a scale 10 Fear cone that hits the near-half range of the power (30 ft base range).

It's a lot easier to guess 45 degrees than it is to guess half the range. Before this skill could be used to at least partially break the alpha before you run in, and now you need to be almost in arctic air range before you can get the control out of it. I would not consider using this power anymore.

[Peacemoon]

19 minutes ago, Arcadio said:

• Added a scale 10 Fear cone that hits the near-half range of the power (30 ft base range).

It's a lot easier to guess 45 degrees than it is to guess half the range. Before this skill could be used to at least partially break the alpha before you run in, and now you need to be almost in arctic air range before you can get the control out of it. I would not consider using this power anymore.

Honestly I have no idea why we have to tiptoe around Control set power in a game where melee ATs are so powerful, and are just having their defences even more buffed against damage gaps that usually have to be controlled to be avoided. 

 

 I cannot understand how ICE CONTROL (of all sets) having a fear like Terrify or Fearsome Stare would make the set overpowered, either by itself, compared to other control sets, or even compared to other ATs. The whole primary purpose of the set is about control; they should have among the best versions of these powers.

 

I think reducing the cone width for the slow so that the fear can be fully incorporated into the power would be much be a much better play experience for everyone, if a compromise has to be made. For the record I’ve never found the cone width on Terrify wanting, so not sure how much benefit there is for a wider cone anyway?

 

The version we have now I would question what the point of adding a fear to it was in the first place. It just seems like it will be completely unwieldy in game to know whether a mob is near enough to be hit with the fear or not, in a way no other power to my mind has such considerations when using. 

[Parabola]

38 minutes ago, Arcadio said:

• Added a scale 10 Fear cone that hits the near-half range of the power (30 ft base range).

It's a lot easier to guess 45 degrees than it is to guess half the range. Before this skill could be used to at least partially break the alpha before you run in, and now you need to be almost in arctic air range before you can get the control out of it. I would not consider using this power anymore.

I have to echo this. The best use of this power as I see it is to break the alpha on your way into melee range where ice control really wants to be. Therefore I would prefer greater range on the fear than the width. It just doesn't seem that useful a power to me once I am in melee range, by that point Arctic Air and Ice Slick are doing their thing.

 

13 minutes ago, Peacemoon said:

I think reducing the cone width for the slow so that the fear can be fully incorporated into the power would be much be a much better play experience for everyone, if a compromise has to be made.

Agreed. Marry the two effects up with whatever arc/range is deemed suitable and have done with it.

[Blackfeather]

I quite like the change to Cold Snap! Especially since there's that feature that includes enemy distance on targets now, which should make it easier to evaluate. The fear cone is basically a little longer than Arctic Air is - so long as enemies are inside it, it should be pretty easy to measure, I think. I like how wide the slow effect is currently myself, since I've made use of that, and don't want to see that aspect reduced.

[Heatstroke]

eh this isnt exciting to me. ill probably get it because it will be more useful than Snow Storm is now.. and I almost never use Snow Storm.

[Bionic_Flea]

All/Ice Control/Cold Snap: The fear component's radius changed to 135 degrees (same as the debuff) but limited to 30ft (half the parent's radius).

 

I appreciate the attempt to make this better, but I don't think it has hit the mark yet.  Giving it different angles or different ranges adds needless complication.  Ice Control is still a set I will generally avoid in favor of something else, and if I do decide to make one, I will probably skip Cold Snap.  It needs better control and more damage.  This pass added some of both, so thanks, but it's nowhere near enough to make it competitive with other control sets, unless, perhaps, I stick a damage proc everywhere that can take one.  But at that point, I'm playing the procs, not the set.

 

Somewhat related: Another thing you could do is increase the range on World of Confusion.  Eight feet is basically melee.  Having stacked confuse auras might be fun enough to try, but not at 8 feet.

[WindDemon21]

Or.. hear me out... Make it a taoe so you can use it in melee too! *re-sarcasm*

[Captain Powerhouse]

4 hours ago, Arcadio said:

It's a lot easier to guess 45 degrees than it is to guess half the range. Before this skill could be used to at least partially break the alpha before you run in, and now you need to be almost in arctic air range before you can get the control out of it. I would not consider using this power anymore.

 

It was a continued feedback here that players wanted the wider angle because most players feel the set is more often played closer to melee range. The power will not get a full 135 degree/60ft arc fear, so we going for what most players keep saying they want: more melee range flexibility. I'm neutral on it being what 135/30 or 45/60, but if there was any opposition to the mindset that the power would be better used in melee, I didn't notice it. Actually, this is a bit of a lie: I personally would prefer the 45/60 version for my own playstyle. Would love to see some discussion on what everyone else would prefer between the two options.

 

3 hours ago, Peacemoon said:

I cannot understand how ICE CONTROL (of all sets) having a fear like Terrify or Fearsome Stare would make the set overpowered, either by itself, compared to other control sets, or even compared to other ATs. The whole primary purpose of the set is about control; they should have among the best versions of these powers.

 

It had that, and this thread kept insisting they wanted a wider radius than Fearsome Stare, for the reasons I noted above. 

 

3 hours ago, Peacemoon said:

It just seems like it will be completely unwieldy in game to know whether a mob is near enough to be hit with the fear or not, in a way no other power to my mind has such considerations when using. 

 

It's not highly used but its also not that uncommon at all in this game for powers to have a smaller radius for some effects. Shield Charge is a good example, a chunk of its damage only occurs within 5ft radius, while the power has a 20ft radius. Lightning Rod is similar, with an even smaller radius for most of its damage (3ft radius) and Storm Summoning's Hurricane only repels foes within 15ft radius despite having a 25ft radius.

[Blackfeather]

42 minutes ago, Blackfeather said:

I quite like the change to Cold Snap! Especially since there's that feature that includes enemy distance on targets now, which should make it easier to evaluate. The fear cone is basically a little longer than Arctic Air is - so long as enemies are inside it, it should be pretty easy to measure, I think. I like how wide the slow effect is currently myself, since I've made use of that, and don't want to see that aspect reduced.

 

I do still think that Mind Control's Terrify ought to be a nice reference though, with its 60 ft range matching that of Cold Snap's (versus Fearsome Stare's 70 ft), and a cone of 90 degrees, which seems like a nice compromise between a longer, narrower arc and a shorter, wider one. Though given Ice Control's more close ranged nature, I do like the current change over the previous implementation between the two.

Edited August 10, 2022 by Blackfeather

[TygerDarkstorm]

On 8/10/2022 at 1:58 PM, Captain Powerhouse said:

 

It was a continued feedback here that players wanted the wider angle because most players feel the set is more often played closer to melee range. The power will not get a full 135 degree/60ft arc fear, so we going for what most players keep saying they want: more melee range flexibility. I'm neutral on it being what 135/30 or 45/60, but if there was any opposition to the mindset that the power would be better used in melee, I didn't notice it. Actually, this is a bit of a lie: I personally would prefer the 45/60 version for my own playstyle. Would love to see some discussion on what everyone else would prefer between the two options.

 

 

It had that, and this thread kept insisting they wanted a wider radius than Fearsome Stare, for the reasons I noted above. 

 

 

It's not highly used but its also not that uncommon at all in this game for powers to have a smaller radius for some effects. Shield Charge is a good example, a chunk of its damage only occurs within 5ft radius, while the power has a 20ft radius. Lightning Rod is similar, with an even smaller radius for most of its damage (3ft radius) and Storm Summoning's Hurricane only repels foes within 15ft radius despite having a 25ft radius.

I, for one, appreciate it being given more melee utility since that's where Ice Control likes to play at. Thanks Cap!

 

Edit: Actually, after seeing the other replies here that are written more eloquently then what I am generally capable of saying, I find myself agreeing with their assessment. Since this is a cone power and seems more suited as an alpha breaker, then perhaps the 45/60 version is best, unless it gets turned into a TAoE.

Edited August 12, 2022 by TygerDarkstorm

[Booper]

It may be worth noting that the radius of the fear can still be enhanced. It does not use the inner/outer radius implementation that most other powers use for varying coverage areas, which would be unenhancable. 

[Peacemoon]

1 hour ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

It's not highly used but its also not that uncommon at all in this game for powers to have a smaller radius for some effects. Shield Charge is a good example, a chunk of its damage only occurs within 5ft radius, while the power has a 20ft radius. Lightning Rod is similar, with an even smaller radius for most of its damage (3ft radius) and Storm Summoning's Hurricane only repels foes within 15ft radius despite having a 25ft radius.

I don’t agree that any of these examples match this situation. You are talking about charge powers that have increased damage at the point of impact, that plays very differently to having a cone power that is effectively two cone powers in one with no easy way to tell which part will hit which mobs. There are no examples I can think of where this has been done before, and for good reason, as it’s going to be really difficult for players trying to use it. 

As for Hurricane the powers effects have always matched the visual perfectly. You have to touch the mobs with the repel in order to debuff them so I’m not sure which part of the power is a 25ft radius? The debuff lingers for 10 seconds but you always have to tap them.

 

With regards to the more melee play style of ice.. cones are not good for this fullstop. It would be a better power as a targeted AoE, and a ‘cold snap’ targeted on an enemy and around them would probably fit better thematically anyway. This would give ice a more unique style to other sets and could be pretty fun with some other secondaries they benefit from this too.

[...]

Yeah I'll have to disagree with the recent change to the fear. Like @Captain Powerhouse I think I would prefer 45 degrees and 60 feet to 135 degrees and 30 feet. Far more useful as an alpha breaker.

 

I suspect those people who were giving the feedback that they wanted to be able to use Cold Snap in melee were hoping it could be a TAoE. I know I wanted to use it as both an alpha breaker and in melee, but between the two, I'll take the alpha breaker.

 

 

[Jacke]

@Captain Powerhouse, everytime there's a complexity added to a power, it becomes more burdensome to use, as the power is no longer a simple cone or TgtAoE or whatever.  You may do that to balance the power to your best judgement, but in doing so you add an mental burden to the players who have to remember all that to guide their tactics.  As others have shown, Ice Control both before and after these changes is an underperforming Control set and giving it more complexity makes it less attractive.

 

On 8/10/2022 at 8:58 PM, Captain Powerhouse said:

It was a continued feedback here that players wanted the wider angle because most players feel the set is more often played closer to melee range. The power will not get a full 135 degree/60ft arc fear, so we going for what most players keep saying they want: more melee range flexibility. I'm neutral on it being what 135/30 or 45/60, but if there was any opposition to the mindset that the power would be better used in melee, I didn't notice it. Actually, this is a bit of a lie: I personally would prefer the 45/60 version for my own playstyle. Would love to see some discussion on what everyone else would prefer between the two options.

 

Don't say melee, because a ranged power for melee use should be a TgtAoE, for flexibility.  A cone is a ranged attack, because one with a recharge like Cold Snap, the toon should be backed off from the mobs before using it again.  Ideally, it's used once on approach and the mobs are defeated before moving on to the next group of mobs.

 

I strongly suggest to you to make Cold Snap a simple cone--or even better, a simple TgtAoE.  A cone with one range and one arc for all its effects, or as a TgtAoE one range and one radius.  Make the effects whatever you think that such a power should have, but keep it simple, not complex.

 

Edited August 12, 2022 by Jacke

[Carnifax]

On 8/4/2022 at 1:05 PM, Bionic_Flea said:

 

I know you are joking, but if you look at the text block I added, there's 1 Confuse hidden among 9 Scares. 

 

You should add Scare to your logger.  I double-dog dare you!

I thought I did? Need to go back and check now.

[Bionic_Flea]

2 hours ago, Carnifax said:

I thought I did? Need to go back and check now.

If you did it's not on that screenshot . . . or I'm blind, which is also possible.

[arcane]

I agree that I would rather have the slow cone arc or radius reduced if it means the power can have one set of dimensions for both the fear and the slow. 

[Black Zot]

Why all the concern about overbuffing the worst power in the weakest control set in the game?  If you're not going to give the fear effect a useful target area, what's the point of adding it at all?

[arcane]

1 minute ago, Black Zot said:

Why all the concern about overbuffing the worst power in the weakest control set in the game?  

Are they buffing Flash Freeze? O:

[...]

1 hour ago, Black Zot said:

Why all the concern about overbuffing the worst power in the weakest control set in the game?  If you're not going to give the fear effect a useful target area, what's the point of adding it at all?

 

This right here might be the most relevant comment. 

 

I know someone in the closed beta had concerns that a TAoE fear might be "too good", but that doesn't mean they are right. They just had an opportunity to express their opinion before the rest of us. 

 

Such a comment should be considered in the greater context of the remainder of the control set. 

[Bellerophon]

On 8/11/2022 at 11:47 PM, Jacke said:

@Captain Powerhouse, everytime there's a complexity added to a power, it becomes more burdensome to use, as the power is no longer a simple cone or TgtAoE or whatever.  You may do that to balance the power to your best judgement, but in doing so you add an mental burden to the players who have to remember all that to guide their tactics.  As others have shown, Ice Control both before and after these changes is an underperforming Control set and giving it more complexity makes it less attractive.

 

 

Don't say melee, because a ranged power for melee use should be a TgtAoE, for flexibility.  A cone is a ranged attack, because one with a recharge like Cold Snap, the toon should be backed off from the mobs before using it again.  Ideally, it's used once on approach and the mobs are defeated before moving on to the next group of mobs.

 

I strongly suggest to you to make Cold Snap a simple cone--or even better, a simple TgtAoE.  A cone with one range and one arc for all its effects, or as a TgtAoE one range and one radius.  Make the effects whatever you think that such a power should have, but keep it simple, not complex.

 

Whether this should be a cone, or a targeted AOE, and what the exact values should be, I'm not prepared to comment on.  But having two different sized cones both affecting enemies is way too confusing.  The only time I would support having two different shapes/areas/etc for power effects are going to be things like Fulcrum Shift with one area effecting enemies, then the PBAoE affecting your allies.

[WindDemon21]

2 hours ago, Bellerophon said:

Whether this should be a cone, or a targeted AOE, and what the exact values should be, I'm not prepared to comment on.  But having two different sized cones both affecting enemies is way too confusing.  The only time I would support having two different shapes/areas/etc for power effects are going to be things like Fulcrum Shift with one area effecting enemies, then the PBAoE affecting your allies.

It should definitely be taoe so you can use it in melee. Given how wide the cone is for the slow it should still have a good radius to hit enemies.

 

I'd easily say 30 feet if not 35. Keep the fear in the same radius, but make it truly more use as the "opener to close into melee" by having it be mag 4, but short duration, like 4 or 5 seconds, enough to close in, and let you set up a toggle or two if need be while giving time for AA to do its work.

 

At the same time, to also please address the horrid recharge vs duration issue it has for the slow part. 30s is fine for the recharge, but the duration of the slow should easily be upped to at least 30 seconds.