issue 27 Focused Feedback: Toggle Suspension and Suppression

[Gorgar]

7 hours ago, GM Impervium said:

Hey folks.

I know that hiding posts that ask questions is a bad look, but if a dev comes in here and says "THIS is what this thread is about", don't start hassling them about what you think it should be about.

Stay on-topic please. Thank you.

Pretty sure I posted a suggestion to make this *change that the thread is about* optional.  Seems to be gone.  Was that off-topic, or have I gone senile?

[Zepp]

Just to clarify as I try to get some more testing done, "offensive" refers to any effect which targets enemies. This includes mitigation debuffs (-ToHit, -Dmg, Slow, etc.) and controls (mainly used for mitigation). If there is a mixed toggle which has "offensive" and "defensive" effects, the "defensive" effects (those which do not target enemies) should not be suppressed whereas the "offensive" effects should be suppressed...

 

Just clarifying here, to make sure I understand what I should be expecting. Also are effects which target other players "offensive" or "defensive"?

[WindDemon21]

11 hours ago, Zepp said:

Just to clarify as I try to get some more testing done, "offensive" refers to any effect which targets enemies. This includes mitigation debuffs (-ToHit, -Dmg, Slow, etc.) and controls (mainly used for mitigation). If there is a mixed toggle which has "offensive" and "defensive" effects, the "defensive" effects (those which do not target enemies) should not be suppressed whereas the "offensive" effects should be suppressed...

 

Just clarifying here, to make sure I understand what I should be expecting. Also are effects which target other players "offensive" or "defensive"?

The only toggle that targets players that I can think of is spirit ward, which really shouldn't detoggle at all when mezzed IMO, but definitely should at least follow whatever new rule happens with this change. (sonic repulsion is cast on an ally, but its effect is to enemy so does not count).

[Sovera]

1 hour ago, WindDemon21 said:

The only toggle that targets players that I can think of is spirit ward, which really shouldn't detoggle at all when mezzed IMO, but definitely should at least follow whatever new rule happens with this change. (sonic repulsion is cast on an ally, but its effect is to enemy so does not count).

 

Yeah, <deity> knows it detoggles enough on its own as it is.

[Jacke]

13 minutes ago, Sovera said:

Yeah, <deity> knows it detoggles enough on its own as it is.

 

Due to range or line-of-sight, I think.

[Sovera]

Just now, Jacke said:

 

Due to range or line-of-sight, I think.

 

Yeah, but my point stands that it detoggles too much as it is. Not sure why this code went ahead the way it is but since then it spread to Voltaic Sentinel as well.

[Jacke]

3 minutes ago, Sovera said:

Yeah, but my point stands that it detoggles too much as it is. Not sure why this code went ahead the way it is but since then it spread to Voltaic Sentinel as well.

 

That shouldn't be happening as Voltaic Sentinel should stay right by the toon.  Perhaps submit a bug report, regular or beta depending on where it's happening.

Edited July 25, 2022 by Jacke

[Riverdusk]

On 7/24/2022 at 4:23 AM, Frosticus said:

8 seconds is fine, but the little used (or valued) mechanic of mez resistance should reduce the suppression window imo.

 

I like that idea a lot, if it is technically feasible.  I think on average my characters tend to end up with about 50% mez resistance or so, which would put the 8 seconds down to 5.33 seconds assuming my understanding of mez resistance math is correct,  8/1.5.  And of course if you wanted to put the effort in to go for those bonuses you could cut it even more. 

 

Radiation Emission would be the set that would have a huge advantage (thanks to accelerate metabolism), but considering how dependent that set is on its toggles, that actually seems fair.

[csr]

I think it's technically feasible, but I believe there would be a significant issue:  The Suspension appears to check a "Target Requires" test each tick, and each check would have to use your Mez Res at that time, rather than at the time you were mezzed.  This could result in the Suspension coming back if your Mez Res dropped.  It just doesn't seem like a good idea based on my understanding of how this is implemented.  I'm inclined to the good old KISS engineering principle.  This game most assuredly doesn't need any more kludgy code.

 

Of course, I could be wrong about how it works.

Edited July 27, 2022 by csr

[WindDemon21]

Not the mention the resistances (on top of shoudln't be basically required to have IOs) are also such piddly small values.

[WindDemon21]

It's also a lot of a mechanic to try to code in for just a simple "leave the suppression at 3 seconds instead where everyone is happy"

[SwitchFade]

As discussed in my previous post, via maths, 8 lockout seconds is an active nerf for most 

 

3.8-4.2 seconds for a character is neither a buff or nerf, it's breaking even thus QoL

 

4 seconds may seem to be a buff for any toon with 3+ offensive toggles. Let's be clear though, is this really a significant buff? Not really. Marginal, at best.

 

Why? Retoggle is in series live, vs all at one beta. Beta is a nerf, even to 3 toggle toons.

 

On live,

 

I get stunned

3 off toggles drop

I recover after 2.5 seconds on average

I retoggle 1, 1.7s

I have one toggle up in 4.2 seconds post stun

I retoggle 2, 1.7s

I have 2 toggles up 5.9 seconds post stun

I retoggle 3, 1.7 seconds

I have 3 toggles up 7.6 seconds post stun

 

Beta,

 

I get stunned

i recover after 2.5s on average

I have NO OFF TOGGLES up for 8 seconds post stun

 

Sure, a 3 toggle toons gets 2 toggles back 2 to 4 seconds quicker. So? Really?

 

Nerfing 80% to assure that 20% don't get that 2-4 second seeming buff that really isn't one......

 

Any flat lockout longer than 4 seconds is a nerf, thus an argument to leave the old system, because beta is actually a nerf to everyone, even a 3 toggle.

 

Edit: fixed a typo to match my original post of maths, re: 3.5 typo revised to correct 2.5

Edited July 27, 2022 by SwitchFade

[Force Redux]

Removing player agency for the sake of not clicking a mouse is not a buff or QoL. No one is asking for this. There are other low hanging fruit if we're looking for QoL. 

Edited July 27, 2022 by Force Redux

[Booper]

1 hour ago, SwitchFade said:

On live,

I get stunned

3 off toggles drop

I recover after 3.5 seconds on average

I retoggle 1, 1.7s

I have one toggle up in 4.2 seconds post stun

I retoggle 2, 1.7s

I have 2 toggles up 5.9 seconds post stun

I retoggle 3, 1.7 seconds

I have 3 toggles up 7.6 seconds post stun

I have not used any other powers for 7.6 seconds.

 

Beta,

I get stunned

i recover after 3.5s on average

I have NO OFF TOGGLES up for 8 seconds post stun

I have used other powers for 8 seconds.

 

You're not wrong in this breakdown with your personal numbers, but for completeness, I added the other opportunity costs that were left out in your breakdown (in Yellow). Is it worth the loss of 8 seconds of being able to use other powers to gain the earlier on-time of the 3 toggles? Perhaps. That will depend on the player and their situation. This is why it's important to test the two scenarios (Live vs. Beta) in-game to get a general feel for how the change affects your gameplay. Getting time with both scenarios and experiencing the range of outcomes across multiple builds helps in identifying where the QoL change balances with gameplay experiences. As you're likely aware, there are too many variables to properly work out this balance with math (various number of toggles, various cooldowns, various recharge strengths, various importance of re-toggling, various duration of mez, etc). But with enough gameplay testing and feedback of those tests, a balance point can be found between having to wait on suppression to end while being able to use other powers versus spending time re-toggling powers before using other powers.

[Zepp]

On 7/24/2022 at 8:23 PM, Frosticus said:

8 seconds is fine, but the little used (or valued) mechanic of mez resistance should reduce the suppression window imo.

That is definitely something to hold on to and repost in the Suggestions forum if/when this goes live.

[Zepp]

In practice, I do not re-toggle non-mitigation toggles during combat. They do not add enough of a boost for the cast time. Depending on the toon, this is similar to what I see on Test as by the time the 8s is over I am often without anyone left to fight...

Edited July 27, 2022 by Zepp

[ForeverLaxx]

36 minutes ago, Booper said:

But with enough gameplay testing and feedback of those tests, a balance point can be found between having to wait on suppression to end while being able to use other powers versus spending time re-toggling powers before using other powers

You're overselling the "use other powers" aspect. For the sake of argument, consider a scenario for a player where, having their debuff toggles dropped due to mez, is actually still alive after that mez wears off. Assuming they somehow manage to not faceplant 1.2 seconds after their toggles drop, they come out of mez. What's the first thing they do? They run.

 

They aren't standing next to mobs wailing on them while trying to get their toggles back online; they're running. They're running because they still have to wait for recharge. They're running because they'll take less damage (usually) at range than up close. They're running because they're at 5% HP and need to break LoS to pop inspirations/heal powers. They're not sticking it out and blasting for 8 seconds, hoping to survive on 5% HP for 8 seconds, just so they can get their toggles active again in 8 seconds. This scenario even plays into your hypothetical situation the best because while you've broken LoS, you probably haven't left leash range so your toggles will come back on before they get to you... but you can already do that with this strategy, in less time than 8 seconds. This best-case scenario for these changes is still worse than current Live.

 

This is all just academic anyway because you're going to die when you get mez'd and your debuffs drop. Any content where you're going to survive without your debuffs is content you didn't need them on to begin with, so having them down for 8 seconds or down for 4 seconds + animation time is moot. You're eating dirt before that mez drops or immediately after because you're a squishy that needs those debuffs to survive.

[Jacke]

4 hours ago, ForeverLaxx said:

This is all just academic anyway because you're going to die when you get mez'd and your debuffs drop. Any content where you're going to survive without your debuffs is content you didn't need them on to begin with, so having them down for 8 seconds or down for 4 seconds + animation time is moot. You're eating dirt before that mez drops or immediately after because you're a squishy that needs those debuffs to survive.

 

It doesn't always happen, so I'd really like to see that lockout time be 4s or less.

 

But @ForeverLaxx has a good point.  Things are often balanced on a knife-edge that getting Mezzed is often death.

 

Which brings us back to Mez.  Mez is the problem, binary in many ways.  Many ATs can almost ignore Mez, some can handle it, but to most ATs it's a death threat.  And to those ATs, Mez usually does nothing until it removes all agency.  And the player better get out of Mez fast and hope they can deal with things going wrong before they die.

 

In other words, Mez needs fixing.  Soon.  Please make that a priority.

[WindDemon21]

1 hour ago, Jacke said:

 

It doesn't always happen, so I'd really like to see that lockout time be 4s or less.

 

But @ForeverLaxx has a good point.  Things are often balanced on a knife-edge that getting Mezzed is often death.

 

Which brings us back to Mez.  Mez is the problem, binary in many ways.  Many ATs can almost ignore Mez, some can handle it, but to most ATs it's a death threat.  And to those ATs, Mez usually does nothing until it removes all agency.  And the player better get out of Mez fast and hope they can deal with things going wrong before they die.

 

In other words, Mez needs fixing.  Soon.  Please make that a priority.

 

This, which has always been the biggest problem on squishies. It does need addressed IMO, but I can concede that this would indeed be another thread that wouldn't happen till a future patch.

 

But yes again while it could be nice to attack, the main priority for those that this is really needed for, are thise sets and powers where you need the TOGGLE back on ASAP. So we should be looking first and foremost at those one/two toggle averages that are priority, or its a straight nerf. IE 3ish seconds (which includes that some *may* have a useful power to use during that time, but others who don't have one that wouldn't also draw aggro and get then killed etc)

[csr]

8 hours ago, Booper said:

On live,

I get stunned

3 off toggles drop

I recover after 3.5 seconds on average

I retoggle 1, 1.7s

I have one toggle up in 4.2 seconds post stun

I retoggle 2, 1.7s

I have 2 toggles up 5.9 seconds post stun

I retoggle 3, 1.7 seconds

I have 3 toggles up 7.6 seconds post stun

I have not used any other powers for 7.6 seconds.

 

Beta,

I get stunned

i recover after 3.5s on average

I have NO OFF TOGGLES up for 8 seconds post stun

I have used other powers for 8 seconds.

Edited July 27, 2022 by csr
Broken quoting

[csr]

I could not get that post to work.  It simply wouldn't let me edit outside the quote box.

 

There are math errors in this post...

 

First, the times should be 5.2s, 6.9s and 8.6s as the first toggle was listed as taking 1.7s but only 0.7s was added.

 

Second, Bopper's should show that you had 5.1s to do other things; the amount of time spent on retoggling.  Of course, you didn't have to redo all three toggles.

 

In the end it still comes down to losing your toggle powers for 8s.  If those are significantly more important than what you could do otherwise then it is a net loss.  For debuff-reliant squishies it almost always is.  For others, it usually isn't.  Truly offensive toggles typically just reduce the length of a fight, while the defensive toggles being lumped in with them can frequently mean the difference between winning and losing; at least, far more often than is the case for the truly offensive ones.

 

One fix would be to go put all of the defensive elements of the debuff toggles into Activation Effect Groups a la the Blaster sustains so they'd keep working.  Messy.  Personally, I just think the Suspend period needs to be shorter.

Edited July 27, 2022 by csr
Many, many typos

[Booper]

8 minutes ago, csr said:

 

First, the times should be 5.2s, 6.9s and 8.6s as the first toggle was listed as taken 1.7s but only 0.7s was added.

 

Second, Bopper's should show that you had 5.1s to do other things, the amount of time spent on retoggling.  Of course, you didn't have to redo all three toggles

Good catches. I misinterpreted the Recover in 3.5s statement. I assumed it meant they were mezzed for that long (and toggles recharged during that time). If it meant 3.5s unmezzed but waiting on toggles, then yes your numbers look right.

 

That goes to my statement earlier, there is an opportunity cost with each of these methods. In this example it was being able to use 2-3 powers (3.5s) then spend 5.1s retoggling in a sequential order (toggle 1 up sooner than toggles 2 and 3) versus being able to use 5-7 powers (8s) then have all your toggles back on at the 8s mark. How much value each of these scenarios will have is dependent on numerous factors for the player.

[SwitchFade]

2 hours ago, csr said:

 

2.5+1.7 is 4.2 <-- typo

 

4.2+1.7 is 5.9...

 

My first mesure is 2.5, thanks for catching the typo

Edited July 27, 2022 by SwitchFade

[SwitchFade]

2 hours ago, Booper said:

Good catches. I misinterpreted the Recover in 3.5s statement. I assumed it meant they were mezzed for that long (and toggles recharged during that time). If it meant 3.5s unmezzed but waiting on toggles, then yes your numbers look right.

 

That goes to my statement earlier, there is an opportunity cost with each of these methods. In this example it was being able to use 2-3 powers (3.5s) then spend 5.1s retoggling in a sequential order (toggle 1 up sooner than toggles 2 and 3) versus being able to use 5-7 powers (8s) then have all your toggles back on at the 8s mark. How much value each of these scenarios will have is dependent on numerous factors for the player.

My first equation was a typo, this should be 2.5 + 1.7 = 4.2

 

This mirrors my very first math post. Sorry about the typo, thanks for catching it @csr editing my post to correct typo

[WindDemon21]

3 hours ago, Booper said:

Good catches. I misinterpreted the Recover in 3.5s statement. I assumed it meant they were mezzed for that long (and toggles recharged during that time). If it meant 3.5s unmezzed but waiting on toggles, then yes your numbers look right.

 

That goes to my statement earlier, there is an opportunity cost with each of these methods. In this example it was being able to use 2-3 powers (3.5s) then spend 5.1s retoggling in a sequential order (toggle 1 up sooner than toggles 2 and 3) versus being able to use 5-7 powers (8s) then have all your toggles back on at the 8s mark. How much value each of these scenarios will have is dependent on numerous factors for the player.

Except that logic is already flawed. This change, high in part, is mostly geared towards those sets that NEED those toggles on asap. IE, rad, dark, storm, etc. where in almost every scenario, they'd be retoggling those important toggles first and foremost. (damage auras should honestly not even be in this discussion). Especially on defender/corruptors/MMs also where their other skills, would be attacks and not always a useful (and recharged and ready) power, that would draw them aggro and get them killed. So expecting this change to be needed for anything but mostly those support sets and calculating from there is flawed.

 

"A nice bonus" to damage auras and such on ATs where they mostly attack anyway", is a lot different from "I NEED THIS TOGGLE ON NOW MORE THAN I NEED TO ATTACK OR DO ANYTHING ELSE!"

 

We are ALL looking almost exclusively at those "This toggle shouldn't have dropped at all and need it back ASAP" powers.