issue 27 Focused Feedback: Temporal Warrior, Instant Level 50 PvP Characters

[High_Beam]

4 hours ago, Troo said:

 

This merely increases the distance between PVE & PVP while using open zones shared by the two.

I respect you and your opinions and more often than not agree with your positions, but with regards to this change; excellent.  I feel that there should be MORE DISTANCE between PvE and PvP, that the two should never meet or impact the other . . . EVER.  You keep the two worlds separated then you don't have to deal with the damage or the impact.  You make PvP changes to affect only PvP so they have their "balance" and nobody is OP or everybody is OP or burst damage this or that is king and the PvP people are happy cause they are "getting attention".  Meanwhile in PvE you can focus on cool things like powers and zone revamps and new content.

 

Will this get me into a PvP zone?  Nope, I find zero entertainment value in it, but that's me. The only enticement to me would be badges and I don't have the OCD that I did on live for this.  But as I have always said, I do believe players should be able to PvP as long as they don't impact the majority of the player base (live or on HC).

[Yomo Kimyata]

As long as the insta-50s cannot interact whatsoever with any other characters that are not insta-50s, I don't see a problem.

 

I'd suggest restricting them to Arena though, because they would destroy anyone who was building up a character that wasn't specifically for insta-50 PvP.  So you can't in good conscience let them roam Bloody Bay, for example.

[America's Angel]

These options are fantastic and something the PvP community has been after for a while.  Hopefully this will be a shot in the arm to the PvP scene and will allow new players to jump in without having to powerlevel or grind for incarnates. Huge barrier to entry removed now that all is needed is influence to complete a PvP character.

 

Have tested this a bunch and it seems to all be working fine. At some point this week I'll load into every zone the sg base portals let me go to and ensure they're all auto-booting me back to RV. (If anyone wants to help with this incredibly boring and time consuming task fun group activity just holla.)

 

2 hours ago, TheZag said:

Make a character on the test server and at least half of the questions would have been answered.

If only. Focused Feedback threads are 99% people bored at work who may/may not have the game installed at home, 1% people who have logged into beta and tested changes

 

  

6 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

Let's cut to the chase.

At this point, this should be heading towards having cookie-cutter template PVP characters that can be picked that are already slotted up and enhanced, etc. (everything is locked in. You can look at the enhancements, but can't change any of the build.

The only things that a player does with those prebuilt PvP characters is name them, costume them, and move the powers around in the trays.

There has been talk of premade characters that players can use to PvP with that use meta builds. (Like fire/plant blasters for 8v8 pvp, or a ss/regen brute for fightclub pvp.)

 

I think the idea was even floated that these presets would use signature character models in-game. (So Mako would be a Claws/SR scrapper with a set powerlist, Statesman would be a SS/Regen brute, etc.) And that players could unlock more of them by PvPing. (So you start with Fusionette and Flanbeaux, and then earn your way up to Statesman and Recluse by PvPing.)

 

Would be for a future page, though. So not hugely relevant to this thread.

Edited July 19, 2022 by America's Angel

[ExeErdna]

1 hour ago, Troo said:

The expectation is an existing player who is PvP curious will level up, selecting powers they may not be familiar with under very different PvP rules, spend significantly to IO a build out, and then experience tremendous success.. I'll echo the likelihood of a bad experience is high.

 

Insta Highest Level possible. Come PvP on Homecoming! (what could possibly go wrong?)

 

Why isn't this available for those who only want to do endgame content?

 

 

Because that means those level 50's doing endgame content are Ouroboros members and some of us want those unique costume items if that's the case. Yet that's me being vain.

[UltraAlt]

34 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

I'd suggest restricting them to Arena though, because they would destroy anyone who was building up a character that wasn't specifically for insta-50 PvP.  So you can't in good conscience let them roam Bloody Bay, for example.

 

What's the harm?

No one is using those zones anyway.

 

Are you seeing some population in the PVP areas on a server that I'm not seeing?

 

29 minutes ago, America's Angel said:

I think the idea was even floated that these presets would use signature character models in-game.

 

I was thinking about that as well, but think they are built as critters and not player characters which makes a difference in how they operate.

 

29 minutes ago, America's Angel said:

And that players could unlock more of them by PvPing. (So you start with Fusionette and Flanbeaux, and then earn your way up to Statesman and Recluse by PvPing.)

 

If you go with presets, I think it should be like Street Fighter. Everyone has access to all the premades.

 

The additional ones would be the new releases as the DEVs had time to generate new premades and add them to the system.

It isn't an all or nothing thing.

Start with one of each archetype and then build on that if players utilize the premades. If they don't, then the DEVs can stop worrying about it unless they decide that it is something fun for them to do.

 

29 minutes ago, America's Angel said:

Would be for a future page, though. So not hugely relevant to this thread.

 

I don't see why not. 

If a player expected to kit one out, then it shouldn't be all that hard to at least kit out a couple of premades for release.

 

-----

in case there is some confusion, I'm suggesting the prebuilts as an option. During PvP character selection you would pick a premade the same way you would pick an archetype, and they would load into a character slot the same way any other character would.

 

 

Edited July 19, 2022 by UltraAlt

[High_Beam]

35 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

I'd suggest restricting them to Arena though, because they would destroy anyone who was building up a character that wasn't specifically for insta-50 PvP.  So you can't in good conscience let them roam Bloody Bay, for example.

On this one I disagree, PvP zones are for PvP so there should be no restrictions there.  If its good for the goose to keep PvP out of PvE zones and keep their powers separated then its good for the gander to require PvE players who want to step in and PvP to abide by the same structure.  They too can always create a PvP zone character using the same mechanism or take their chances going in zone with what they have.  I mean I didn't see anywhere that said the auto exemplar mechanism of the PvP zones was done away with so there aren't going to be Level 50 Double Plus good PvP builds ganking "noobs" in Siren's Call; correct me if I am wrong WRT that mechanism but I assume that is why they start in RV.

 

[Digirium]

Not tested this yet. After the five respecs for levels 10, 20, 30, 40 and 50 are used up how does a TW do a power respecification? For someone learning to PvP and how to construct builds via trial and error it is likely a lot of respecs will be used up. Ultimately, since TW is a "special case" I think I would like to see free and unlimited access to /respec. I do not see respecs available from the P2W vendor, the other source is AH. TWs could exhaust the AH supply which could be bad. The final use case for respec on TW is extracting all enhancements, dump them in an SG storage bin and re-use them in a different TW character. Free and unlimited /respec to remove another potential obstacle to getting in to PvP.

 

This would only apply to TW characters. May be it was already thought about and put in place? Hence the comment about "not tested" yet. Consider that TWs will not have access to respec trials, patron arcs (they give a free respec), or soldiers of arachnos free respec if applicable (or may be SoA-TWs will get extra free respecs, I am uncertain). I guess TW could always re-roll to restart with a set amount of respecs but that would be a PITA.

Edited July 19, 2022 by Digirium

[UltraAlt]

7 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

15 hours ago, The Curator said:

The goal here is to remove the barrier of entry for players that are curious about PVP, but don't want to spend the time leveling up a new character that would be useful under the PVP rules.

 

.... because people power-leveling to level 50 isn't a thing?

I mean, I'm glad that this bypasses doorsitters and, hopefully, reduces farming .... wait, you can get into the Pocket D and there is AE there, so.... a PvP flagged character can't go into AE missions, is that correct?

 

I guess giving access to all of the incarnate powers is somehow supposed to be leveling the playing field, but, honestly, I think all the incarnate powers should be locked out of PvP.

[UltraAlt]

13 minutes ago, Digirium said:

After the five respecs for levels 10, 20, 30, 40 and 50 are used up how does a TW do a power respecification?

 

The same way any other character would except you would have to hand-off the respec recipe from a PvE character to the PvP character.

So I guess this also promotes that everyone should make an alternate account for doing some of the hand-off work.

[Yomo Kimyata]

34 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

 

What's the harm?

No one is using those zones anyway.

 

Are you seeing some population in the PVP areas on a server that I'm not seeing?

 

 

 

 

No, but there are people who do use the PvP zones for non-PvP purposes:  badges, shivans, etc.  Now I am 100% on board with the idea that you are taking a chance every time you enter a PvP zone.  I can just see this potentially leading to gank fests.

 

24 minutes ago, High_Beam said:

On this one I disagree, PvP zones are for PvP so there should be no restrictions there.  If its good for the goose to keep PvP out of PvE zones and keep their powers separated then its good for the gander to require PvE players who want to step in and PvP to abide by the same structure.  They too can always create a PvP zone character using the same mechanism or take their chances going in zone with what they have.  I mean I didn't see anywhere that said the auto exemplar mechanism of the PvP zones was done away with so there aren't going to be Level 50 Double Plus good PvP builds ganking "noobs" in Siren's Call; correct me if I am wrong WRT that mechanism but I assume that is why they start in RV.

 

 

Good point on the exemplar mechanism, although I think you have a much more sanguine view on human nature than I do!

 

On further thought, this change would potentially lead to a lot of people making new characters and equipping them, which would be good for the overall economy.  I'm willing to sacrifice a small amount of personal utility for that.  Carry on.

[Digirium]

2 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

The same way any other character would except you would have to hand-off the respec recipe from a PvE character to the PvP character.

So I guess this also promotes that everyone should make an alternate account for doing some of the hand-off work.

 

I think that would be the wrong solution to get a TW an extra respec.

[El D]

2 hours ago, Troo said:

The expectation is an existing player who is PvP curious will level up, selecting powers they may not be familiar with under very different PvP rules, spend significantly to IO a build out, and then experience tremendous success.. I'll echo the likelihood of a bad experience is high.

 

Insta Highest Level possible. Come PvP on Homecoming! (what could possibly go wrong?)

 

Why isn't this available for those who only want to do endgame content?

 

 

Hazarding a guess, it's because PvP as is effectively an 'optional extra' which basically functions as its own separate mini game. Were there actually a way to go from 1 to 50 in PvP this probably wouldn't have been put in but there isn't, and as is the only way to even try a PvP build to know if a player might like it is to go through PvE first. Which requires building for PvE first, which given that PvP operates on entirely different numbers via a heavily modified rulebook and requires a different skillset... It's entirely likely to invest in a great PvE build, only to find that it doesn't function nearly as well as a player wants it to in PvP due to slotting (Hell, that's why the option for multiple builds got implemented in the first place). 

 

Also, the fact that there's no 'game skipped' via a PvP only Level 50 like there would be with an 'Endgame Only' option. An Endgame-Only 50 button would be even more of a content skip than AE can be at its most egregious - a literal 'I Win' button - but PvP has no content. Sure, there's lore-reasons why the PvP zones and the Arenas exist, but those are just fancy backgrounds for the sole purpose of 'fight other players.' A PvP-locked 50 can't farm in AE, or PL alts, or run story arcs or TFs or anything else. The closest thing to content PvP has would be the badges and temp powers from the PvP Zones, which were just tools to coax PvE players into even going into them it in the first place (and often times aside from getting Warburg nukes those are either 'one and done' or ignored entirely anyway).

 

Plus, given that the player still has to purchase a build for the PvP-Only character, it still requires time invested in PvE to earn the resources to make it really worthwhile. This option just lets players get a pre-emptive sense of 'Will investing in this even be worth it?' rather than the current system of 'Extensively research the massive, nitty-gritty of builds, playstyles, and numerical changes between PvE and PvP beforehand or suffer buyer's remorse.'

Edited July 19, 2022 by El D

[UltraAlt]

6 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

No, but there are people who do use the PvP zones for non-PvP purposes:  badges, shivans, etc. 

 

Agreed. I have done it just for the fun of running around in the PvP zone fighting the PvE stuff and getting some badges.

I hadn't really thought of it as a place for easy Shivan hunts but I'm not a badge  wh....er... badger.

 

9 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

I can just see this potentially leading to gank fests.

 

My favorite PvP characters on live were stalkers.

I would wait until a hero was fighting a PvE enemy and were down to half health before I ran in for the assassin strike. Would you consider that ganking?

 

You have to go running around looking for other players to fight in a PvP zone and most of the time these days you won't find anyone.

 

PvP on live was pretty toxic and it drove a lot of players away from PvP.

If there is too much ganking going on, then people just won't go the the PvP areas any more.

It isn't like you are forced to go there.

If gankers ruin their own fun, then it is on them. If the PVP zones are like they are now, there won't be that many characters to gank to begin with.

 

It will balance out.

It would be more of a balance if players could pull pre-mades, but this appears to be another step toward pre-mades.

Maybe there will even be a DEV lead contest to post the best PvP builds so that they can add them to the game as pre-made selections!?

Will this show that there really isn't all that much interest in PvP?

 

 

18 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

lot of people making new characters and equipping them, which would be good for the overall economy.  I'm willing to sacrifice a small amount of personal utility for that.  Carry on.

 

 

20 minutes ago, Digirium said:

I think that would be the wrong solution to get a TW an extra respec.

 

What is the correct one?

 

 

[laudwic]

Two suggestions from a non-PvPer:

 

1.  Will the Insta 50s have any free Respecs?  I can see them wanting to change their build, but, frankly, I would want the respecs just as an easy way to harvest IOs off of the character if I decide to stop using the character.  Much better than having to buy a ton of unslotters.

 

2.  If it isn't an large amount of work, a PvP setting that does not take enhancements into consideration.  That will allow a faster ability to jump into PvP with less time investment and cost.

 

Frankly, I also see this as a convenient way to try out some powers on a level 50 in the PvP zone against PvE enemies for those who don't want to download the Beta (test) Server.

[Stoked]

3 hours ago, Troo said:

Why isn't this available for those who only want to do endgame content?

 

The only relevant question.

[Stoked]

29 minutes ago, laudwic said:

Two suggestions from a non-PvPer:

 

1.  Will the Insta 50s have any free Respecs?  I can see them wanting to change their build, but, frankly, I would want the respecs just as an easy way to harvest IOs off of the character if I decide to stop using the character.  Much better than having to buy a ton of unslotters.

 

2.  If it isn't an large amount of work, a PvP setting that does not take enhancements into consideration.  That will allow a faster ability to jump into PvP with less time investment and cost.

 

Frankly, I also see this as a convenient way to try out some powers on a level 50 in the PvP zone against PvE enemies for those who don't want to download the Beta (test) Server.

Two great ideas thank you for sharing. End of the day, why not just get rid of enhancements altogether? If they're so worried about data bloat creating a third set of enhancements just for PVP'rs, then get rid of them for everyone. While you're at it, get rid of the merits as well - ALL of them, every kind. You solve every problem related to game mechanics immediately including farming in any type of content. There will no longer be a reason to farm accept that people actually like it better than dev created content. 🙂

[Jaguaratron]

You would do better undoing Castles stupid i13 revamp, there was a fairly healthy pvp community before it and none after it, its a prime example of the fail that is design by spreadsheet.

[Troo]

12 hours ago, El D said:

Hazarding a guess

 

If this was an option for arena or a special server, it could be interesting, and equivalent to using the Test server (minus wipes). Even a new zone could be enabled just for this.

This isn't that.

There are more holes in this than really holey Swiss cheese.

If folks say anything against pvp changes, they get tarred and feathered as someone who hates pvp. I love open zone pvp, 1 v1 arena, and gladiators. I dislike the team 1, 2, 3 fire targeting exercise that has how many teams participating over all servers?

 

12 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

Agreed. I have done it just for the fun of running around in the PvP zone fighting the PvE stuff and getting some badges.

I hadn't really thought of it as a place for easy Shivan hunts but I'm not a badge  wh....er... badger.

 

I, for one, do street sweeping and missions in PvP zones as well as work on badges including those required for accolades.

 

12 hours ago, High_Beam said:

auto exemplar mechanism of the PvP zones was done away with so there aren't going to be Level 50 Double Plus good PvP builds ganking "noobs" in Siren's Call

 

Yes a level 50 with all the bells and whistles could be significantly better than an actual level 20, 30 or 40. Exemplaring doesn't really strip slots, set bonuses, or unique bonuses.

 

 

Edited July 20, 2022 by Troo

[aethereal]

2 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

What is the correct [way to get a Temporal Warrior a respec]?

 

Couldn't you just delete the character and recreate it?  I mean, you'd have to stow any enhancements somewhere, but otherwise, why do you need a respec when you can just create the character at level 50?

 

You can just create a brand new TW spec it, transfer enhancements from the old one, then delete the old one and rename the new one.

 

EDIT:  I guess this way you'd have to use unslotters, which is a mild expense.

Edited July 19, 2022 by aethereal

[Excraft]

1 hour ago, Troo said:

How does this help the rest of the game?

What is the impact on resources as the highest level IOs are consumed by free level T4 50s?

 

This feels, in my opinion, like continued catering to a small subgroup that we've seen over the last update or two. While trampling anyone else who might use the impacted zones.

 

Spot on.  It's been going on before the last couple of updates too.  They've catered to that same small group of inner-circle folks since the beginning.  I don't see them ever changing that or really caring about what the majority want or would like to see.  A couple people mentioned this in other threads, but it really does seem clear these suggestions are being made by devs or dev buddies using incognito alt accounts to make it seem like it's something people outside the inner circle want. 

[The_Warpact]

2 hours ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

 

No, but there are people who do use the PvP zones for non-PvP purposes:  badges, shivans, etc.  Now I am 100% on board with the idea that you are taking a chance every time you enter a PvP zone.  I can just see this potentially leading to gank fests.

 

If that was the case we would see it now. As I regularly get badges, Shivans, hang out in pvp zones, etc and I never see anyone.

 

BUT, if you're talking PVErs trying PVP who are ganking PVErs who aren't...well wouldn't that be something 🤔. 

[High_Beam]

1 hour ago, Troo said:

Yes a level 50 with all the bells and whistles could be significantly better than an actual level 20, 30 or 40. Exemplaring doesn't really strip slots, set bonuses, or unique bonuses.

 

True but not as significant at a 50 with full kit pounding a 25 with no kit.  My point being that it wouldn't be as completely ganktastic.

[Arcadio]

5 hours ago, Troo said:

The expectation is an existing player who is PvP curious will level up, selecting powers they may not be familiar with under very different PvP rules, spend significantly to IO a build out, and then experience tremendous success.. I'll echo the likelihood of a bad experience is high.

 

Insta Highest Level possible. Come PvP on Homecoming! (what could possibly go wrong?)

 

Why isn't this available for those who only want to do endgame content?

 

I actually remember having a pretty good time in PVP zones on live with just SO/basic IO builds. I don’t expect anyone to come in and start stomping the zone, but I imagine fun can still be had for pretty cheap.

[Yomo Kimyata]

How about making a PvP server that only covers those zones?  Link the /AH to the main one.

 

or, make character creation so easy that your character is deleted after every session.

 

I doubt I will pvp significantly again, but I’d rather do it at 25 than double secret extra power 50.

[Troo]

22 hours ago, High_Beam said:

True but not as significant at a 50 with full kit pounding a 25 with no kit.  My point being that it wouldn't be as completely ganktastic.

 

PvP in CoX is 90% build on even ground. Give one player extra slots in available powers as well as mules and set bonuses in powers unavailable in that zone.. no contest.

 

 ////////////

 

PVP zone badges include exploration & history some of which apply to accolades, (note: also a day job)

~28 badges in RV

~9 badges in Warburg

~9 badges in Siren's

~10 badges in Bloody Bay

 

These <50 aren't just badges, some represent activities that players are encouraged to participate in.

Spoiler

related to accolades & buffs

Triumphant Badge

Exploration

Warburg (228, 274, 33)

Swashbuckler Badge

History

Visit 4 history plaques: Bloody Bay (605, 0, -150) Siren's Call (-942, -157, 200)

Weapon of Mass Destruction Badge

Exploration

Warburg, on missile gantry. (-768, 144, 0)

Arachnos Rising Badge

History

Click on History plaques at the following locations: Warburg (-1038, 99.5, -822)

Crooked Politician Badge

Exploration

Bloody Bay, on top of casino. (2265, 137, -832)

Man in Black Badge

Defeats

Defeat 200 Shivans.

Triumphant Badge

Exploration

Warburg, atop golden globe. (228, 274, 33)

Last Stand Badge

Exploration

Recluse's Victory, between Foxtrot and Golf pillboxes. (1083, 0, -136)

Predator Day Job  PvP Zones  Auto: +Recharge

Master Predator day job power grants a 10% recharge rate bonus.

 

 

Edited July 20, 2022 by Troo