Focused Feedback: Reward Merits

[Yomo Kimyata]

Even though I completely recognize that my solutions are 100% spot on and should be implemented immediately, I understand that not everyone has my infallability.

 

So I *strongly* recommend against ever making decisions based on a (shudder) poll.

[ShardWarrior]

7 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

So I *strongly* recommend against ever making decisions based on a (shudder) poll.

 

Making decisions in a vacuum is not always the best solution either.  There is a happy medium somewhere. 

[Dazl]

Why were you able to sell emps for merits in the first place? You could never buy emps with merits. Incarnate salvage is designed to build your incarnate powers and is account bound.

[Coyotedancer]

21 hours ago, Number Six said:

even though they were tuned for a much smaller population and probably shouldn't have ever gone live in the state they're in today.

 

If that's really the belief of the Powers That Be and they ever act on it... Frankly, that tells me that my time here is probably limited.

 

As I said in the other thread, pushing us back into "Team or Else!" for Incarnate progression would end my ever making another character. And that's the thing that would make me walk away.

 

As Krimson said earlier, I suppose it's better to know that sooner than later, but it's still a disappointing revalation.

 

[Coyotedancer]

I'm just not online when iTrials are formed... Even though I actually do enjoy a couple of them, they just aren't a reasonable option for everyone. Also, not every character is suitable for running through Dark Astoria. (Not to mention how tiresome re-running those arcs over, and over, and over and over again gets, even on something that's good at it. On, say, a Sonic Defender? Deity help you. It's tedious beyond all rationality. o_O) 

 

The level grants are one of the single BEST things added to the post-Live game, I think. Regardless of server populations, along with iXP everywhere and taking the time gates off of DA, it allows those of us who can't (or don't want to-) grind iTrials a chance to complete our characters in a way that suits our play-styles and circumstances. 

 

With all due respect... changing that would be a pants-on-head STUPID move.

[Coyotedancer]

It's fun once or twice in a kind of "I wonder if we can actually pull this off?" sort of way... but the number of times you have to repeat the arcs to actually build a character's iToys just sucks every single ounce of fun right out of them after awhile. 

 

That's one of the reasons I really hated the first AE change removing vet levels and their attendant rewards. Tossing that Sonic in with my farmer was a whole lot less annoying than leaving him in DA to re-run Heather and Mu V for his iBits.

 

 

 

Edited August 2, 2022 by Coyotedancer

[Number Six]

2 hours ago, Coyotedancer said:

If that's really the belief of the Powers That Be and they ever act on it... Frankly, that tells me that my time here is probably limited.

 

There's a fair bit of space between "Vet levels are overtuned" and "TEAM OR ELSE", but you do you. There have been a ton of other options besides iTrials that have been buffed significantly since retail.

 

The implication of my statement was also that despite my opinion, there aren't any plans to make significant changes to incarnate progression. I'd hope that would be obvious from the way that the vet level change never made it out of beta and became a change to merit conversion instead.

[ivanhedgehog]

2 hours ago, Coyotedancer said:

I'm just not online when iTrials are formed... Even though I actually do enjoy a couple of them, they just aren't a reasonable option for everyone. Also, not every character is suitable for running through Dark Astoria. (Not to mention how tiresome re-running those arcs over, and over, and over and over again gets, even on something that's good at it. On, say, a Sonic Defender? Deity help you. It's tedious beyond all rationality. o_O) 

 

The level grants are one of the single BEST things added to the post-Live game, I think. Regardless of server populations, along with iXP everywhere and taking the time gates off of DA, it allows those of us who can't (or don't want to-) grind iTrials a chance to complete our characters in a way that suits our play-styles and circumstances. 

 

With all due respect... changing that would be a pants-on-head STUPID move.

I am not excited about this drive to "make the game more challenging" to satisfy the karens among us. a toggle to do that FOR YOURSELF would be fine. changing the basic game for everyone not so much. we see agro being buffed but the damage cap remains. wow devs did the same thing in cata and saw the greatest loss of subscriptions ever. I dont see the elitification of coh as a good idea. toggles? yes across the board, no

 

[scottocamp]

1 hour ago, Number Six said:

 

There's a fair bit of space between "Vet levels are overtuned" and "TEAM OR ELSE", but you do you. There have been a ton of other options besides iTrials that have been buffed significantly since retail.

 

The implication of my statement was also that despite my opinion, there aren't any plans to make significant changes to incarnate progression. I'd hope that would be obvious from the way that the vet level change never made it out of beta and became a change to merit conversion instead.

 

Many games seem to have a tension between different factions.  The tension in CoH seems to be between those who "Actually Play the Game" and those who "Create Characters".

 

As one who creates characters - I don't much care about the addition of extra hard content or reward vs risk calculations or AE allowing easier progression and better rewards than non-AE content or whether or not veteran level rewards are over-tuned.  I spend my time working out costumes, working on connected back-stories, re-working Mids builds over and over to get the right mix of powers and then getting that character up to level 50 and through incarnate progression any way I can.  I run the exact same content over and over just because it is familiar to me and it gives me a benchmark to better understand how well-constructed a new character is compared to past characters.  I don't happen to run AE content but the end result is roughly the same.  I'm not really playing the game as intended.  The one part of Page 4 that thrills me is the new Symphonic Control set.  That is fantastic.  A lot of the rest seems a bit worrisome to me.

 

Folks who "Actually Play the Game" usually don't want easy progression to be allowed.  Makes playing the game kind of pointless.  And they want the game to be challenging.  Folks who "Make Characters" just want to make characters and they don't want that process to become more daunting and perhaps more tedious than necessary.  And they want lots and lots of crazy, wonderful and magnificently over-powered options.  So this tightening of the screws doesn't really make the experience "better" or "more fun" for someone like me.  Though I can certainly understand why many are delighted by the changes.

 

Bottom line - I think the negative feedback you are getting is from all the "Create Character" players.  There is a concern the game is shifting away from accommodating those who just want to make alts.  Trying to push us toward playing new content, teaming up, making progression a bit more difficult - that sort of stuff.  Which is of course fine - this is a game of course.  But for a great many of us, our "jam" (as Krimson puts it so well) is just to hang out and bring character concepts to life in this wonderful sandbox.  There are lots of games out there where I can join teams to defeat challenging foes.  There really isn't anything else like CoH for making characters.  At least not that I have found.

 

Just my two cents.

[arcane]

7 hours ago, scottocamp said:

Bottom line - I think the negative feedback you are getting is from all the "Create Character" players. 

Just my two cents: as someone with over 100 level 50’s (so I create characters right?), I do not see any of the new beta changes as making my playstyle significantly harder. You should just give the new patch a chance; it’s all very mild stuff.

Edited August 2, 2022 by arcane

[scottocamp]

1 hour ago, arcane said:

Just my two cents: as someone with over 100 level 50’s (so I create characters right?), I do not see any of the new beta changes as making my playstyle significantly harder. You should just give the new patch a chance; it’s all very mild stuff.

I'm sure you are right.  And I'm sure it will be fine.

 

But if the game was trending the other direction - a buff to AE rewards, a nerf to mob strength, easier progression to 50, jump kick and flurry transformed into the best powers in the game, a new level of play difficulty called "Cakewalk" and such - wouldn't you be feeling a bit anxious about what was happening?  

 

I'm exaggerating to make a point of course, but many of us really like the game as it currently exists.

[Excraft]

On 7/31/2022 at 11:07 PM, Number Six said:

There's not a rule against it and I'm not convinced there should be a rule against it, but the game's rewards structure should not be set up in a way that encourages it.

 

Was thinking about this some more... sounds a lot like a problem over in STO where people were taking advantage of the big dilithium payouts from finishing Rep systems.  They would complete the rep system, then delete the character and start over.  All that dilithium can be converted to Zen which is purchased with real money.  There's no real money here though so not sure why this is such a crisis.  Could you maybe backload the merits from Vet levels instead of front load them?  I know it wouldn't stop the behavior, just make it take longer and help discourage it.  Just a thought, not a great one but wanted to share.

Edited August 2, 2022 by Excraft

[Marbing]

48 minutes ago, Excraft said:

 

Was thinking about this some more... sounds a lot like a problem over in STO where people were taking advantage of the big dilithium payouts from finishing Rep systems.  They would complete the rep system, then delete the character and start over.  All that dilithium can be converted to Zen which is purchased with real money.  There's no real money here though so not sure why this is such a crisis.  Could you maybe backload the merits from Vet levels instead of front load them?  I know it wouldn't stop the behavior, just make it take longer and help discourage it.  Just a thought, not a great one but wanted to share.

This would disproportionately punish those who do not farm more (because now it would be an even longer grind and thus force them to farm more) and as you said not really stop the behavior in any way. 

[arthurh35353]

Well, they could just divide the cost of enhancements for merits by 1/2 or 3/4 if they ever decide that non-farmers needed a way to get them without farming.

 

Nah, it's a crazy idea.

[Marbing]

I would like to formally apologize to anyone who felt bullied by me on this thread or any other. That’s not my intent. I joke around and twist things / play devils advocate to make a point, not to bully.
 

That being said, people having a disagreement isn’t bullying. Devs making changes to the game for the betterment of the game isn’t bullying. I hope we can all agree on that.

 

Also, my question was never answered: What in this game is exclusive to reward merits? In other words, what can only be purchased by them? I can’t think of any off the top.

[Redletter]

3 hours ago, Marbing said:

That being said, people having a disagreement isn’t bullying. Devs making changes to the game for the betterment of the game isn’t bullying. I hope we can all agree on that.

Sure, but what is a change that makes things "better" is a matter of disagreement.

 

I don't think taking away reward merit conversion makes the game better. Some people do. I suspect the people who do, play the game a lot more, and have a lot more established and steady avenues for in-game wealth acquisition than I do. I see the change as more a direct response to the income acquired by farming, which provides not only inf but exp which converts to vet levels, which provide Emp Merits, that can then be converted to reward merits, that can then be converted to converters, that then are converted into yet more inf.

 

Because that's the only "problem" this change solves -- I do not even think this is a problem either, mind you. It does this at the cost of people who do not farm at all, who casually run Posi's at level 50 just because they like it or enjoy casual mission teams. The people who get a veteran level maybe once or twice a month.

3 hours ago, Marbing said:

Also, my question was never answered: What in this game is exclusive to reward merits? In other words, what can only be purchased by them? I can’t think of any off the top.

 

The whole of the merit vendor offers a wide array of things that cost a number of reward merits, the most notable of which are a number of IO Set enhancements and recipes that are only available for purchase through this vendor, or, from the auction house. Removing Emp to Reward conversion removes Emp merits from being able to be used to fund the acquisition of items from BOTH of these markets.

 

The items in the reward vendor are, by majority, available by random chance. Which, once again, makes this change all the more detrimental for more casual players.

 

Farmers will of course, be unaffected, because they already enjoy the benefits of stacking the random chance at recipes and salvage in their favor. Meanwhile, the more casual player does not get that benefit, and will have to hope they get lucky.

 

The more i consider the alterations, the more I'm convinced it isnt to stifle the income highs of farming, but rather, to force casual players INTO farming, as the content that provides Reward Merits has not only diminishing returns on repetition, but is also quite lengthy, and perhaps worst of all, offers comparatively small merit rewards on their own. This is fine, when you can supplement the income of reward merits with emp merits, which can be converted into reward merits, as much of the content that offers reward merits also offers emp merits, meaning you can usually enjoy the benefits of both rewards to get around the diminishing returns from repeating content you enjoy.

 

Now, the loss of the conversion wouldnt be such a problem is the price for IO set enhancement didn't require a minimum of 100 reward merits (most content only provides 80 on completion the first time, and then halves after that, meaing you need a MINIMUM of two runs regardless). But lowering the price of set ios...

4 hours ago, arthurh35353 said:

Well, they could just divide the cost of enhancements for merits by 1/2 or 3/4 if they ever decide that non-farmers needed a way to get them without farming.

 

Nah, it's a crazy idea.

 

That'd just be a crazy idea.

[Marbing]

1 minute ago, Redletter said:

Sure, but what is a change that makes things "better" is a matter of disagreement.

I agree, but it isn’t bullying was my point.

 

2 minutes ago, Redletter said:

I don't think taking away reward merit conversion makes the game better.

I don’t either actually.

3 minutes ago, Redletter said:

The whole of the merit vendor offers a wide array of things that cost a number of reward merits, the most notable of which are a number of IO Set enhancements and recipes that are only available for purchase through this vendor, or, from the auction house. Removing Emp to Reward conversion removes Emp merits from being able to be used to fund the acquisition of items from BOTH of these markets.

 

The items in the reward vendor are, by majority, available by random chance. Which, once again, makes this change all the more detrimental for more casual players.

I know what’s in the vendor, apologies if I wasn’t clear. But, isn’t most of what’s in there available on AH in some capacity as well?

[Dazl]

1 hour ago, Redletter said:

Now, the loss of the conversion wouldnt be such a problem is the price for IO set enhancement didn't require a minimum of 100 reward merits (most content only provides 80 on completion the first time, and then halves after that, meaing you need a MINIMUM of two runs regardless). But lowering the price of set ios...

I do agree that some of the cost for items on the reward vendor should be adjusted. ATO's and purple recipes should only cost 50 merits, and regular IO recipes should be 25. Winter IO's and ATO's both cost 100 merits, and they are not close to being the same value.

 

As I asked before if you can't buy emps with merits, why can you sell them for merits? Isn't the incarnate salvage supposed to be account bound.

 

In the end it's not really that many emps. If you just farmed for the 20 emps you would get 160, which is only 1600 merits. It's pretty easy to earn that outside AE.

[Widower]

PSA: This thread is about reward merits, not other servers; take that conversation somewhere else.

[golstat2003]

3 hours ago, Marbing said:

I would like to formally apologize to anyone who felt bullied by me on this thread or any other. That’s not my intent. I joke around and twist things / play devils advocate to make a point, not to bully.
 

That being said, people having a disagreement isn’t bullying. Devs making changes to the game for the betterment of the game isn’t bullying. I hope we can all agree on that.

 

Also, my question was never answered: What in this game is exclusive to reward merits? In other words, what can only be purchased by them? I can’t think of any off the top.

 

Not everyone will agree that every change is for the betterment of the game. That may be the intention, but there will indeed be changes that you don't agree with. Let's keep that in mind.

[Marbing]

26 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

 

Not everyone will agree that every change is for the betterment of the game. That may be the intention, but there will indeed be changes that you don't agree with. Let's keep that in mind.

I agree, the point is that their intent is for the betterment of the game, not to bully, as some have suggested.

[ivanhedgehog]

1 hour ago, Marbing said:

I agree, the point is that their intent is for the betterment of the game, not to bully, as some have suggested.

That may be their intent, but I do not think these changes make the game better. these changes are intended to change everyones difficulty whether they want it or not. I think it will make our community more like wows and thats not a good thing.

[Redletter]

4 hours ago, Marbing said:

I know what’s in the vendor, apologies if I wasn’t clear. But, isn’t most of what’s in there available on AH in some capacity as well?

Yes. But the changes to emp merit conversion, in turn, nerfs the ability to buy them from the AH -- which was my overall point to my answer. The merit store doesn't have too many wholly unique items, but, the alternative ways to get the items it offers are either;

 

A - Random drops from enemies

 

or 

 

B - Only widely available to the AH

 

For instance, if you want say, rare salvage you have three options. You can either kill enemies (bosses/avs ideally) and hope for it drop, you can spend 750,000 on it from the AH usually, or, you can spend a few merits on the grabbags in the merits.

 

But, then you have IO set recipes. You can, once again, buy them from the AH at a premium, buy them for merits on the merit store, or, you can hope they drop from enemies. But, this isn't as simple as a "oh well look! Right there, you have TWO other ways to get them! What's there to worry about?"

 

I already have said in another thread that the nature of the crafting system being totally random from the core of it's design. There's only TWO ways to get a SPECIFIC recipe you'd like. You either buy it on the AH, or you buy it from the merit vendor. 

 

Can't buy things without money gained from converting merits to things to sell on the AH. Can't buy the things sold for merits without the merits to begin with. The cost in merits is ironically STEEPER by comparison to inf, since we know 10 merits converted to inf is about 700,000 or so, but buying the recipe for a rare IO is 50 merits in the vendor and maybe 50,000~100,000 in the AH (this doesnt include the costs of salvage you don't have, if you don't have them, the costs of getting a whole set, the cost spent to actually CRAFT the set since you have to pay to craft anyway).

 

I could go on. My point is that due to other factors of the economy, messing with reward merit acquisition even in an indirect way, radically affects the people for whom merits are the main source of income for a character.

 

Unless of course you farm. Then you're fine regardless.

 

It'd be nice if other things that COSTED merits were tuned, or the activities that payed out rewards did so in higher volumes and with less radical hemorrhaging returns on replay. But that doesnt seem to be a matter of concern at the moment, which seems to further my crackpot theory that this change isnt to improve player content engagement, but to instead convince us to disengage as much as possible and AFK farm, since doing that is objectively more profitable overall -- since farming gives me recipes (that i no longer have to buy), salvage (that i no longer have to buy), and inf (that will let me buy the things i do not have) and I can craft my own things, sell them on the market, and make more profit with less effort than I ever would have made by running literally ANY task force.

 

TLDR: Taking away income sources without making other content equally profitable encourages circumventing gameplay entirely in favor of maximizing profit.

[Marbing]

1 hour ago, Redletter said:

Taking away income sources without making other content equally profitable encourages circumventing gameplay entirely in favor of maximizing profit.

This was the point of my question, doing the math in my head tells me taking away the conversion will have the opposite of the desired affect. Which means taking Vet levels out of AE was the better solution between the two to accomplish moving rewards out of AE.

 

EDIT: Unless they plan on making things like ATOs and Winter Sets account bound, for example.

Edited August 3, 2022 by Marbing

[Grouchybeast]

 

1 hour ago, Redletter said:

Can't buy things without money gained from converting merits to things to sell on the AH. Can't buy the things sold for merits without the merits to begin with. The cost in merits is ironically STEEPER by comparison to inf, since we know 10 merits converted to inf is about 700,000 or so, but buying the recipe for a rare IO is 50 merits in the vendor and maybe 50,000~100,000 in the AH.

 

This isn't ironic, it's WAI.  Buying IOs with merits is intended to be a cap on market prices, not an equivalent, and as an expensive alternative for people who absolutely refuse to engage with the AH.  Unless inflation gets completely out of control, it's always going to be cheaper to buy IOs via the AH.  

 

1 hour ago, Redletter said:

TLDR: Taking away income sources without making other content equally profitable encourages circumventing gameplay entirely in favor of maximizing profit.

 

I think you might have missed this change, but all content that previously awarded Emp merits has been buffed to award an additional amount of reward merits equal to the amount that could have been made from converting the Emp merits.