Focused Feedback: Reward Merits

[Excraft]

Question - are reward merits for ASF and ITF being increased to compensate for the nerf to EMP merit conversion?  If I'm remembering right, these were added as additional incentives to try hard mode stuff and were told that those could be considered the additional merit rewards because they could be converted.   That's no longer the case, so are reward merits getting increased for harder difficulty levels?

[Grouchybeast]

18 minutes ago, Excraft said:

Question - are reward merits for ASF and ITF being increased to compensate for the nerf to EMP merit conversion?

Yes.  It's in the patch notes.

[Blackfeather]

18 minutes ago, Excraft said:

Question - are reward merits for ASF and ITF being increased to compensate for the nerf to EMP merit conversion?  If I'm remembering right, these were added as additional incentives to try hard mode stuff and were told that those could be considered the additional merit rewards because they could be converted.   That's no longer the case, so are reward merits getting increased for harder difficulty levels?

 

According to the patch notes, it seems like it:

 

Quote

New Advanced Difficulty - Imperious Task Force [Focused Feedback: Advanced Difficulty - Imperious Task Force]

• Advanced Difficulty mode has been added to the Imperious Task Force, accessed from the Challenge Settings window before starting the content.
• Playing on Advanced Difficulty adds new elements to the content that make it more challenging but also provides an opportunity to earn greatly increased and unique rewards!
• Advanced Difficulty includes a brand new boss fight and badge for defeating them!

Something seems different, but I'm sure it'll be fine...

• Like the Dr. Aeon's Strike Force that introduced the Advanced Difficulty system, this new mode comes in four higher difficulty level options above default:

Those difficulty names sure seem familiar! Who remembers when mission difficulty was set with Notoriety levels?

• The setting specifics listed below also apply to the Aeon Strike Force, and should be referred to as the most up-to-date advance difficulty mode information:

Heroic/Villainous (Default)

• Normal difficulty, this is what the option is set to by default, and doesn’t change the content in any manner.

Tenacious/Malicious (☆) 

• This content is balanced around everyone on the team having Tier 1 incarnate powers.
• Enemies have access to additional/improved powers.
• Certain enemy groups can sometimes have Elite Bosses/Bosses spawn in place of Bosses/Lieutenants in regular enemy spawns.
• Access to exclusive challenge encounters and mechanics not found in the default difficulty.
• Arch-villain/Giant Monster have Incarnate base hit chance (63.75%).
• Certain powerful Arch-villains/Giant Monsters have double base health (with normalized regeneration numbers).
• No additional enemy stats or defeat rewards.
• Players are unable to use non-revive Super Inspirations.
• In addition to all standard rewards, completion of this difficulty will reward 10 Reward Merits.

Rugged/Vicious (☆☆) 

• This content is balanced around everyone on the team having Tier 2 incarnate powers.
• The minimum mission difficulty is locked at +2 and the team size at x8.
• Enemies have access to additional/improved powers.
• Certain enemy groups can sometimes have Elite Bosses/Bosses spawn in place of Bosses/Lieutenants in regular enemy spawns.
• Boss class enemies and above have inherent magnitude 10 Confuse protection.
• Access to exclusive challenge encounters and mechanics not found in the default difficulty.
• All enemies receive the following baseline buffs: +10% Resistance[All], +15% Defense[All], +20% Damage[All], +10% ToHit, 66ft Perception radius.
• Arch-villain/Giant Monster ranked enemies have Incarnate base hit chance (63.75%).
• Arch-villain/Giant Monster ranked enemies will reward 2 Reward Merits per defeat.
• Certain powerful Arch-villains/Giant Monsters have double base health (with normalized regeneration numbers) and will reward 4 Reward Merits per defeat.
• All enemies reward 20% more experience/influence.
• Players are unable to use non-revive Large/Super Inspirations.
• In addition to all standard rewards, completion of this difficulty will reward 20 Reward Merits and an Incarnate reward table containing your choice of a random Incarnate salvage, an Empyrean merit, or two super Inspirations.

Unyielding/Ruthless (☆☆☆) 

• This content is balanced around everyone on the team having Tier 3 incarnate powers.
• The minimum mission difficulty is locked at +3 and the team size at x8.
• Enemies have access to additional/improved powers.
• Certain enemy groups can sometimes have Elite Bosses/Bosses spawn in place of Bosses/Lieutenants in regular enemy spawns.
• Lieutenant class enemies and above have inherent magnitude 10 Confuse protection.
• Elite Bosses have magnitude 10 Knockdown protection.
• Access to exclusive challenge encounters and mechanics not found in the default difficulty.
• All enemies receive the following baseline buffs: +15% Resistance[Lethal/Smashing], +20% Resistance[All but S/L], +20% Defense[All], +30% Damage[All], +20% ToHit, 66ft Perception radius
• Arch-villain/Giant Monster ranked enemies have Incarnate base hit chance (63.75%).
• Arch-villain/Giant Monster ranked enemies will reward 4 Reward Merits per defeat.
• Certain powerful Arch-villains/Giant Monsters have double base health (with normalized regeneration numbers) and will reward 6 Reward Merits per defeat.
• All enemies reward 30% more experience/influence.
• Players are unable to use Temporary Powers or non-revive Medium/Large/Super Inspirations.
• In addition to all standard rewards, completion of this difficulty will reward 30 Reward Merits and an Incarnate reward table containing your choice of a random Incarnate salvage, an Empyrean merit, or two super Inspirations.

Invincible/Relentless (☆☆☆☆) 

• This content is balanced around everyone on the team having Tier 4 incarnate powers.
• The mission difficulty is locked at +4 and the team size at x8.
• Enemies have access to additional/improved powers.
• Certain enemy groups can sometimes have Elite Bosses/Bosses spawn in place of Bosses/Lieutenants in regular enemy spawns.
• All enemy classes have inherent magnitude 10 Confuse protection.
• Bosses and Elite Bosses have magnitude 10 Knockdown protection.
• Access to exclusive challenge encounters and mechanics not found in the default difficulty.
• All enemies receive the following baseline buffs: +20% Resistance[Lethal/Smashing], +30% Resistance[All but S/L], +30% Defense[All], +40% Damage[All], +30% ToHit, 66ft Perception radius
• Arch-villain/Giant Monster ranked enemies have Incarnate base hit chance (63.75%) as well as a +1 Level Shift.
• Arch-villain/Giant Monster ranked enemies will reward 6 Reward Merits per defeat.
• Certain powerful Arch-villains/Giant Monsters have double base health (with normalized regeneration numbers) and will reward 10 Reward Merits per defeat.
• All enemies reward 40% more experience/influence.
• Players will be unable to use Temporary Powers or any non-revive Inspirations.
• In addition to all standard rewards, completion of this difficulty will reward 40 Reward Merits and an Incarnate reward table containing your choice of a random Incarnate salvage, an Empyrean merit, or two super Inspirations.

 

[Excraft]

5 hours ago, Grouchybeast said:

Yes.  It's in the patch notes.

 

5 hours ago, Blackfeather said:

According to the patch notes, it seems like it:

 

Thanks to both of you.  I realize it's subjective and opinion, but to me those merit rewards are much too low for the extra time and effort involved.  I might run this once just to try it and then never again.  It's still faster/more fun to just do speed TFs and can earn more merits faster. 

[Redletter]

17 hours ago, Grouchybeast said:

I think you might have missed this change, but all content that previously awarded Emp merits has been buffed to award an additional amount of reward merits equal to the amount that could have been made from converting the Emp merits.

No, I read that just fine. It doesnt at all change my point. Why would I spend an hour in an incarnate level task force, say, Mayhem, for a whopping... what? 50 or so merits (roughly 3mil inf depending on the market payout) when I could instead sit on a spines/fire brute waddling through a dilapidated tunnel for a higher payout with less effort? Without even needing to do merit conversions at all, it's just money in the bank, plus goodies i can sell for yet more profit.

 

What was once a passive means of income gained by doing whatever content you wanted is now an income method gatekept behind content you may or may not want to do. If I'm already being encouraged to do something I don't want to do, why would I choose the least profitable of two options?

 

This isnt even to touch upon characters who no longer have a need for emp merits. What do you do with them once you're all incarnated out? Will I be able to convert them into the new currency for the hologram store? Or are they just going to sit there, amassing, growing into some grotesque pile of legitimately worthless endgame currency? Can we get a method to buy costume vouchers that emp merits can be used for, since by the time your getting emp merits on level up, your Icon costs are going to be worth more than the conversion could get you...

 

Plz I can't keep spending 9mil everytime i want to take OFF my sunglasses...

[Dazl]

1 hour ago, Redletter said:

No, I read that just fine. It doesnt at all change my point. Why would I spend an hour in an incarnate level task force, say, Mayhem, for a whopping... what? 50 or so merits (roughly 3mil inf depending on the market payout) when I could instead sit on a spines/fire brute waddling through a dilapidated tunnel for a higher payout with less effort? Without even needing to do merit conversions at all, it's just money in the bank, plus goodies i can sell for yet more profit.

 

What was once a passive means of income gained by doing whatever content you wanted is now an income method gatekept behind content you may or may not want to do. If I'm already being encouraged to do something I don't want to do, why would I choose the least profitable of two options?

 

This isnt even to touch upon characters who no longer have a need for emp merits. What do you do with them once you're all incarnated out? Will I be able to convert them into the new currency for the hologram store? Or are they just going to sit there, amassing, growing into some grotesque pile of legitimately worthless endgame currency? Can we get a method to buy costume vouchers that emp merits can be used for, since by the time your getting emp merits on level up, your Icon costs are going to be worth more than the conversion could get you...

 

Plz I can't keep spending 9mil everytime i want to take OFF my sunglasses...

You can send Transcendent merits to your alts to build out their incarnates.

[ShardWarrior]

7 hours ago, Redletter said:

No, I read that just fine. It doesnt at all change my point. Why would I spend an hour in an incarnate level task force, say, Mayhem, for a whopping... what? 50 or so merits (roughly 3mil inf depending on the market payout) when I could instead sit on a spines/fire brute waddling through a dilapidated tunnel for a higher payout with less effort? Without even needing to do merit conversions at all, it's just money in the bank, plus goodies i can sell for yet more profit.

 

What was once a passive means of income gained by doing whatever content you wanted is now an income method gatekept behind content you may or may not want to do. If I'm already being encouraged to do something I don't want to do, why would I choose the least profitable of two options?

 

This isnt even to touch upon characters who no longer have a need for emp merits. What do you do with them once you're all incarnated out? Will I be able to convert them into the new currency for the hologram store? Or are they just going to sit there, amassing, growing into some grotesque pile of legitimately worthless endgame currency? Can we get a method to buy costume vouchers that emp merits can be used for, since by the time your getting emp merits on level up, your Icon costs are going to be worth more than the conversion could get you...

 

I feel the same.  These changes are not really encouraging me to run the new difficulty settings or iTrials any more than I already do.  If anything, this encourages me to spend even more time farming to make up for the lost EMP to Merit conversion.  I used that to fill out gaps in IO sets when I was low on inf or to buy the occasional ATO or purple set.  Now I will just farm more to earn more inf to just straight up buy everything and focus solely on speed running TFs.  Overall, that is less time spent forming teams for other "normal/correct/right/approved" content.  My circle of friends and family were discussing if we decide to stay here, we will all get our old laptops up and running to farm as much as possible to make up for the loss.  These changes are being made to corral people into a certain style of play and quite frankly the rewards just are not incentive enough.  There appears to be a lack of understanding there are players who do not enjoy teaming for content.  Not because they are anti-social, but for reasons like the over-saturation of VFX spam and mobs getting annihilated before you can fire off a single attack.

 

As for buying the new costumes with EMP merits, I do not see that happening.  There are enough people sitting on piles of EMP merits now to make it pointless and the new currency is supposedly a carrot to get you to try the new difficulty levels.

 

6 hours ago, Dazl said:

You can send Transcendent merits to your alts to build out their incarnates.

 

That does not solve anything for people with few alts or have no interest in Incarnates.  This all becomes useless, wasted currency.

 

 

 

[arcane]

If you don’t have any “interest” in a currency’s primary use, it’s not a dev problem when the currency is rendered useless to you. I don’t use every form of currency in the game either. No big deal.

 

As for concerns about incentives to run certain content, I don’t think proposing to bulldoze the game’s entire incentive structure yesterday makes today’s arguments look very sincere.

Edited August 4, 2022 by arcane

[ShardWarrior]

27 minutes ago, arcane said:

As for concerns about incentives to run certain content, I don’t think proposing to bulldoze the game’s entire incentive structure yesterday makes today’s arguments look very sincere.

 

You are (once again) either misunderstanding or willfully misrepresenting the intent of my suggestion and what it was in relation to.  It was a suggestion on how to permanently stop gold farmers. 

 

So long as there are rewards that have to be earned, there will always be players looking for shortcuts to getting as much in game currency as possible and/or max level or whatever other virtual goodies there may be.

 

If you truly want to stop gold farmers, you have to remove the need for them.  You can change reward structures until the cows come home, it is not going to stop them from finding the next best method of farming.  Changing the reward structure is not going to prevent gold farmers from setting up their server farms to run farm maps on multiple computers across multiple accounts across multiple IPs.  Every step Paragon took back in the day did not eliminate gold farmers.  It did not even slow them down.  The very fact that there are gold farming sites out there now for this game is proof that changing reward structure is not a deterrent.  Gold farmers are not going to magically disappear because you cannot convert EMP merits anymore.  If anything, these changes are going to have the opposite effect and increase demand for the inf they are selling. 

 

Granting free level 50 tokens and fee inf on demand unequivocally removes the need for a gold farmer.  I am not at all suggesting that is what should be done here, so please stop twisting my words in an attempt to turn them into something they are not.  I am only pointing out that this would absolutely eliminate the need for them by eliminating the need for their business. 

 

That is what my suggestion was in relation to.  I kindly ask that you stop misrepresenting it.  Thank you.

 

 

[Marbing]

1 hour ago, ShardWarrior said:

You can change reward structures until the cows come home, it is not going to stop them from finding the next best method of farming.

I think this is the point that you keep missing. I don't think the Devs really care if they find the next best method of farming. The purpose here, as I see it, is to not have all the eggs in one basket (so to speak). AE is the easiest place to obtain inf, xp, incarnate slots, incarnate mats, emp merits, reward merits, etc etc and according to some posts it isnt even close. The proposal is intended to take one or two of those things away from AE while still letting it be the best place for XP/Inf/Incarnate Slots. They are not trying to end farming. Yes, players will move to farm something else when they need something other than XP/Inf, etc etc, but at least they wont be getting everything in AE. I don't mean to speak for the Devs, and I wish one would come in to clarify that point, but I believe this was more the point.

Though I have come around to realize that cutting the emp > reward merit conversion actually hurts this intent since there isnt really anything exclusive to reward merits that you cant get by farming mountains of inf. Thus, the better solution (though still not perfect I will admit) would be to cut Vet Levels from AE. Once that is done, I would suggest letting AE tickets unlock incarnate materials, so you can still progress your incarnates in AE. BUT, if that can't be done all in Page 4, I would move to just scrap these changes for now until a more perfect solution can be put in place. IMO

[ShardWarrior]

5 minutes ago, Marbing said:

I think this is the point that you keep missing.

 

I have not missed anything.  I completely understand that eliminating gold farming is not the intended purpose of these changes.

[Bionic_Flea]

ShardWarrior:  What is it that you DO want?  No change at all, go back to no vet levels in AE, something different?

[ShardWarrior]

25 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

ShardWarrior:  What is it that you DO want?  No change at all, go back to no vet levels in AE, something different?

 

Better understanding and compassion from everyone involved. 

[Marbing]

1 hour ago, ShardWarrior said:

 

Better understanding and compassion from everyone involved. 

This is fair. 

Keep in mind, however, that just because someone disagrees with you and makes counter points that doesn't mean they aren't being compassionate or not understanding your point of view. I understand why people don't want there to be a change. I get it. I don't entirely like either option either. HOWEVER, I understand that taking something away from AE is necessary. That is my opinion. Can't have all the best / most sought after rewards all in one easy, quick, and repeatable place. Even if you only end up splitting it into 2 different easy, quick, and repeatable places that will still be better than one and much less efficient. I don't like that necessarily, because I will admit I love the convenience of AE. How easy  it is to get everything I want in ONE place. But, I also understand that isn't an ideal setup for an MMO (regardless of its current state on a private server) either, IMO. 

But, either way, it is what it is. I am not losing sleep if the changes happen, or if they don't. I still get to play the game I love. I will adapt, and keep on pressing. Ultimately I love creating new characters, I have over 100 of them. If I can still do that... I will be happy.

[Dazl]

There seems to be a bit of hyperbole about the impact of this change and the fallout it will create. It’s a transaction that never should have been allowed in the first place. There are plenty of merits to be had, if you want them go earn them. This only takes away the 4100 free merits you would get if you sold all the vet emps. While that is a decent sum, it’s not game breaking and can be earned relatively quickly over time. Even more so after the change because you will have new ways to earn them, along with the tradition methods. Why do you think so many of us do hami raids?

[arcane]

Hyperbole and this forum will never part. I mean 30 seconds of Rune of Protection uptime was the cause of the previous weeks-long forumpocalypse. Wild, really.

[Digirium]

All that was broken in AE was XP and that has been fixed on the incoming page 4. XP rates were very broken for sidekicks with XP boosters. What does taking away conversions between Astral, Empyreans and Reward Merits really solve? That removal hurts ALL players. Yes, there are some offsets that are appreciated f.ex adding RMs to incarnate trials but that adaptation was minor.

 

Also, I do not understand the obsession with T4 incarnate abilities and farming EMs in AE farms to obtain them. The +3 level shift is worthwhile obtaining however that be done with T3 abilities. I may not understand it but if that is what players want to do i.e. farming EMs then it is their time they can do it if they want.

 

The only actual concern I have is real world money trading. If there exists farmers exchanging inf for currency that is a problem.

Edited August 5, 2022 by Digirium

[arcane]

7 hours ago, Digirium said:

What does taking away conversions between Astral, Empyreans and Reward Merits really solve?

This was pretty well explained to us but I was unaware of the true reasoning until then. Makes a lot more sense now. Maybe that post could be pinned or stickied or something.

[Neiska]

I am starting to wonder if I am the only one who saves EMP merits for alts to make their initial Incarnate slotting easier. I don't think I have ever changed an EMP merit into a normal merit, ever. They are like gold to me. Merits I can get easy peasy by speed running whatever. But EMP merits? Precious few ways to get those, especially for those of us who mainly solo. My main use for EMP merits is to save up 50 of them, turn them into a Tran Merit and mail it to myself, so my new fresh 50 (often mastermind) can get that initial level shift which is quite important for a Mastermind, due to how the pet scaling works. A fresh 50 non-level shifted MM can be quite rough, depending on the powers and build. I mean, I wouldn't even know what to buy with merits to sell on the AH for money. But now I am wondering. I am sitting on 10,000 threads on my main character alone that I have absolutely zero use for. I don't even know how many candy canes, costume parts, merits, or whatever else currency there happens to be. On my Farming Masterminds I usually like to keep 600 or so EMP merits in the mail, plus whatever else I believe I need to hold onto.

 

The bulk of my money comes from selling white 50 recipes to npc vendors, some of them are 100k a pop and I might end a farming run with 40-50 of them. Plus the raw inf I got from the kills, plus whatever recipes and salvage I found that I can make and/or sell. Honestly I have never even considered EMP worthy of selling, as I value them more than INF, at least as far as gearing up an alt goes. I have piles of money aplenty. But EMP merits? Those take time to gain.

[Andreah]

2 minutes ago, Neiska said:

I am starting to wonder if I am the only one who saves EMP merits for alts to make their initial Incarnate slotting easier.

You are not alone.

 

I do this too. I email a few empyrions (or transcendents) on to the next alt to speed up getting to say, Tier-3, and then any extra emps I earn on that alt get sent along to the next one. I never use them for anything except incarnate powers.

[kelika2]

I personally do not get either side of this change but I am thankful AE vet exp is returned back to how it was.

 

On one hand, the time it takes to AE exp someone to level 99 is a hefty chunk of time.  My farmers Tier3 around vet level 12-15 and Tier4 around vet level 45-50, and the emps earned 50-99 are pretty small in number.  Like, the amount of INF gained from farming that much greatly outweighs the merits from leftover emps.  dont make me do math

 

I forgot what the other hand was.  probably something about math

[Redletter]

On 8/4/2022 at 7:12 PM, arcane said:

Hyperbole and this forum will never part. I mean 30 seconds of Rune of Protection uptime was the cause of the previous weeks-long forumpocalypse. Wild, really.

 

Ok but Rune of Protection IS the PLAINLY best power in the game ever ever and the fact the uptime is ever touched by the devs ever ever means they HATE THIS GAMe, you can tell, the numbers just don't lie. Anyone who loves this game would volunteer their time and effort to make changes I would make, not ones THEY would make.

 

Duh.

[Seed22]

On 8/4/2022 at 6:57 PM, Dazl said:

There seems to be a bit of hyperbole about the impact of this change and the fallout it will create. It’s a transaction that never should have been allowed in the first place. There are plenty of merits to be had, if you want them go earn them. This only takes away the 4100 free merits you would get if you sold all the vet emps. While that is a decent sum, it’s not game breaking and can be earned relatively quickly over time. Even more so after the change because you will have new ways to earn them, along with the tradition methods. Why do you think so many of us do hami raids?

Its the only reason I do a hami raid and even then I miss a good amount on purpose in favor of TFs or iTrials. Hami is to me the objective worse endgame content to ever exist in CoH. Lucky it has 120 merits attached to it( back to back run) 

[Carnifax]

On 8/5/2022 at 3:12 AM, arcane said:

Hyperbole and this forum will never part. I mean 30 seconds of Rune of Protection uptime was the cause of the previous weeks-long forumpocalypse. Wild, really.

In fairness we got good Arcane Bolt and Enflame out of all that drama so it ended up well

 

("Good" is possibly a strong word for Enflame now. "Not dogpoo" might be better)

 

Pity the ball wasn't carried in sorting out the other two origin pools, they've still got a fair amount of poo in there)

[ShardWarrior]

On 8/4/2022 at 7:57 PM, Dazl said:

There are plenty of merits to be had, if you want them go earn them.

 

Earning the EMP merits from Vet levels by doing "right/correct/approved" content and converting them is earning them, same as running TFs over and over.